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Author Topic: Army Book: Engineer teams  (Read 5470 times)

Offline kk14

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Army Book: Engineer teams
« on: February 06, 2010, 10:40:52 PM »
dH brought up the idea in another thread and I really liked it. I have thought about it since then, and talked to a friend of mine who is a good foil for ideas about it. I am still undecided as to whether to include them or not, but the discussion needs to be had.

Since dH mentioned the idea, I have started liking the idea less and less: newly designed (or radically changed) units are the hardest to balance, among other things. That said, I think it has merit, and should be tried, or at least discussed.

First of all, these guys are not in the Rare section because I think they better compete with Outriders, Pistoliers, and (to a lesser extent) Inner Circle Knights and Greatswords. Sort of like the elites of our shooters.

The fluff behind them would be (basically):
They do field testing on Engineer experimental weaponry, because those Engineers are too wussy to go out in the field themselves. They gather data and test the modern hand-held blackpowder weapons that are being developped.

-What I envision is almost a 40k-like small squad with different weapon options and BS4. The unit size would be 3-5.
-Your basic handgunner marksman costs 8+5. He can be upgraded to have repeater handgun for +15 points. Therefore I think the Engineer teams would be reasonably priced at 32 points a model, if they are skirmished, and have repeater handguns and pistols.
-Now, at such a high price, they are going to be a shooting magnet. Either we accept that and embrace 'fragile but dangerous' as their motto, or we give them some resilience. I am thinking of providing them with
--a) heavy armour
--b) 2 wounds
--c) full plate (probably too much)
--d) a 'dug-in' or 'pavise' kind of rule, which gives them a -1 to be hit (as if they were within 2 inches of the edge of a forest) and templates only hit them on a 4+ If they moved from their starting position then they would lose this.
We would have to adjust their points accordingly.

Weapon options: all the experimental weaponry, including a repeater pistol for free (in exchange for their repeater handguns). with the exception of pigeon bombs. Under no circumstances do I think throwing 3 templates of S4, range LOS, around is fair for a special choice. Not even 1.

The costs of the upgrades: probably the same for those of an Outrider Marksman. However, each model would be upgraded independently of the others. Hence, you could have one Hochland Long Rifle, one Repeater Handgun, and one Repeater pistol+pistol, or three of any of the above.
Also, instead of trading away their Repeater Handgun, the Engineering Special Team (or whatever better name we come up with) could select additional weapons (Repeater Pistol: +10, Hochland Long Rigle: +20, Grenade Launching Blundarbuss: +15).

They could purchase experimental flaming ammunition (/incendiary ammunition) at +3 points/model.

One may be upgraded to a champion with BS5 for +7 points.

I realize that at that point cost, if Repeater Handguns are kept, then a unit of 10 handgunners is strictly more effective, points to shot-output. However, the special team, being skirmished, is harder to hit, and has 360 line of sight. Furthermore, they take up less space, and are more versatile (you could have them as pistoliers on foot, for example... putting out 12+ pistol shots.
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Offline kk14

  • Posts: 555
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 08:23:49 AM »
So:
Engineering Teams:
Quote
30 points/model
Unit size 3-5 Gunners, 1 Clerk
Gunner: M4 WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7
Clerk:    M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7

Gunner Equipment: Light Armour, Repeater Handgun, Handweapon.
Clerk: Light Armour, Handweapon.
Special Rules: Skirmished, Individual Fire. (Each model in the unit can fire at a different target.)

Each Gunner's equipment can be upgraded in any of the following ways:
Can trade his Repeater Handgun for:
A Repeater Pistol and Pistol (free)
A Grenade Launching Blundarbuss (free)
A Hochland Long Rifle (5 points)

Each Gunner may purchase the following weapons in addition to his Repeater Handgun:
A Repeater Pistol and Pistol (12 points)
A Grenade Launching Blundarbuss (15 points)
A Hochland Long Rifle (20 points)
If you can't convince the voters to accept your view, and you take to the gun, you are by definition anti-American.

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Offline kk14

  • Posts: 555
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 08:33:29 AM »
Other idea I am thinking of including:
Pigeon Bombs +45 points:
May only be taken on one model. If they are used, then the entire team does not fire this turn.

Other Engineer devices:
Handheld Blackpowder Weapon Scope (will be renamed to have a better Engineering name later):
Can be purchased for any blackpowder weapon:
Cost 3 points
+1 to hit with the upgraded weapon.
(alternative: a targeting monocle lense can be purchased for the model, costing 5 points, and granting +1 to hit).

Grenades:
7 points/model
Usable only as a stand and shoot reaction, range 6", fires d6 shots.
S4 AP, does not count as multiple shot weapon, but still has to roll to hit using the targets BS.

Giving the Clerk, or even every member of the team a pistol.
If you can't convince the voters to accept your view, and you take to the gun, you are by definition anti-American.

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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 10:24:16 AM »
interesting idea but perhaps too shooty for warhammer fantasy

5 of them would deal out (with repeater pistol and pistol) 20 shots that would hit on a 3+ at 8 inch or well perhaps the simple repeater handgun 15 shots that hit on a 3+ at 24 " is quite devastating....well but they are quite expensive for what they do so they are no competition for outriders unless you equip them all with hochlands

265 points and 5 shots with bs 5 each turn that ping out mages and champions.

Offline kk14

  • Posts: 555
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 10:35:22 AM »
Perhaps if they were limited to 3 models?
Are the lenses too much?
If you can't convince the voters to accept your view, and you take to the gun, you are by definition anti-American.

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Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Posts: 10157
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 10:37:20 AM »
Hmmm not really they are very very very expensive especially if you compare them with other armies skirmishers (wraiths come to mind).

But what is their role on the battlefield? sniping away at enemy characters? lots of slow short range firepower?

Offline kk14

  • Posts: 555
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 10:42:39 AM »
The idea is that they are versatile. They can be snipers, they can be handgunners, they can be grenadiers, they can be skirmishers, or a combination of the above. They are the parallel of Greatswords and Inner Circle Knights.
If you can't convince the voters to accept your view, and you take to the gun, you are by definition anti-American.

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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 10:47:57 AM »
I would leave the lenses out make them basic skirmishers without the the individual fire rule.

Something like an outrider infantry choice and add a single experimental weapon to the team champion the rest repeater handguns or hochlands.

Offline kk14

  • Posts: 555
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 10:51:29 AM »
hmmmmm.

But then they are hardly different than Outriders...
If you can't convince the voters to accept your view, and you take to the gun, you are by definition anti-American.

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Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Posts: 10157
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 10:54:13 AM »
They can enter buildings. In the other role I think they are too expensive and to random in their use.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 04:29:51 AM »
I think they need to be looked at in the context of the Engineer, and not in isolation. What I mean by this, is that I don't see them coming to battle without an Engineer being present also. Its all well and good to have elite shooters, but the elite shooting character should also be present somewhere on the battlefield also.

As such, I will draft up my thoughts about this unit when I do the Engineer.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

  • Posts: 1079
  • Adversus Malum Pugnamus
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 08:07:45 AM »
If I were to do this I would simply remove 8-10 points from the cost of the outrider profile, (the horse) and call er done for the basic profile.  Then since outriders are already armed with RHG's I would give the troops the option of R-pistols, grenadoes, HLR's and so on, priced the same percentage lower for troop's as the RHG is vis-a-vis arming a character with one.  After all these ARE still troops not characters and characters DO pay a premium for special weapons that regular joe doesn't.   Some of the rules you are putting in for things like the pigeon bombs are not really making sense to me but It after midnight and I'll be back again tomorrow.

   
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Rodman49

  • Posts: 217
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2010, 05:48:44 PM »
I cannot even imagine adding more Special Choices to an already crowded section of the Empire list.

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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  • Adversus Malum Pugnamus
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2010, 06:18:06 PM »
well you don't -have- to take em alllllll but having options allows for more types of empire army. 
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Rodman49

  • Posts: 217
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2010, 11:47:00 AM »
Yeah, but its got to be fill a different role than either:

Anvil: Greatswords
Hammer: Knights
Small Arms: Outriders
Fast Cav: Pistoliers
Cannons
Mortars (which kind of compete with Outriders)

I just think all the bases are covered here.  The only thing that needs changing is Mortars being 2 for 1.

Offline Johedl

  • Posts: 278
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2010, 07:31:37 AM »
I dont like the idea. Itīs not really fantasy but more like 40k. Why would generals have special units to field test weapons that are allready fielded by marksmen and outriders. The high cost of the experimental weapons means that they are a long way from being issued as standard weapons for any troops but a few special, outriders, and they are probably fielded in what is viewed as a prefered formation, mounted and light armoured.
A simmilar unit that could be a special choise and filles a diffrent role than the ones we allready have could be jaegers. Huntsmen upgrade that becomes special for 3p. BS4 and crossbows, can upgrade to handguns (Free) or rifles (2p) 30" range. If the unit carries black powder weapons the marksman can have the same upgrades as an handgunner marksman.  Rifles are to cumbersom to load for ordinary rank and file troops in order to fire in volumes but skirmishers can overcome this problem. They are a shooting S4 (AP) skirmishing scout unit that can enter buildnings and takes a diffrent role than the rest of the special units.

Offline GambitGriffin

  • Posts: 401
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2010, 02:05:56 PM »
I like the idea but I don't think they fit as a special choice. Either make them rare or make them part of the engineer upgrade. Instead of a master engineer we will have a master engineer with his apprentices or something.

Offline Inarticulate

  • Posts: 1600
Re: Army Book: Engineer teams
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2010, 01:14:03 PM »
I like the idea but I don't think they fit as a special choice. Either make them rare or make them part of the engineer upgrade. Instead of a master engineer we will have a master engineer with his apprentices or something.

I agree, a Master Engineer and his apprentices.
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