Topic: 2,000pt Empire vs Skaven

[carmaul]

Last Friday Night's Campaign game at the LGS.  The campaign allowed some magic items to be earned and mercenaries to be added with gold spent, so my actual list was probably closer to 2500 and the skaven's was ~2400.

note:  this is the first time i've tried to use battle chronicler.  I didnt use too much of the extras.  I just tried to show some positioning.

Empire:
GoTE - FPA/SH w/ white cloak, helm of discord, sword of striking
Wizard level 4 Death - talisman of preservation
BSB - armor of silvered steel, additional hand weapon
2 x warrior priests - heavy/shield

41 x halberds w/ FC (BSB and WP in here)
detachment of 20 halberds
detachment of 15 archers (wizard in here)

29 x greatswords w/ fc (and wailing banner) (GoTE and WP in here)
detachment of 14 swords

great cannon
2 x mortar

2 x steam tanks


Skaven:
5 blocks of 50 slaves, one of the blocks had a level 1 warlock
block of giant rats (with packmasters)
block of stormvermin with 2 grey seers, one on the bell
hell pit
2 warp lightning cannons

Deployment:



I was actually outdeployed.  He got me to put too much to my right and he was able to put his nasty stuff to the left.  my artillery was exposed but he couldnt capitalize on it.  I did get all my artillery on a hill for free firing lanes.

Campaign scenerio let me take first turn:

Empire Turn 1:



Skaven player activates the stormbanner.

Movement: very little movement as i saw no need to rush into 250 slaves until i used my range to take out some targets. Steam tanks position to fire at the bell

Magic: death wizard cast -3 ld on grey seer and skaven failed to dispel, followed up with an uncontested -1 s/t hex on the far two slaves

Shooting:   First steam tank fails the 4+ from banner.  Second one fire, hits but the seer passes his ward save.  Great cannon fires and connects with the bell and seer, ward save fails and deals 3 wounds (1 wound remaining).  First mortar fails the 4+.  Last mortar aims at the grey seer and direct hits, ward save fails and the grey seer is removed as a casualty.  Mortar also kills 5 stormvermin.

No close combat.

Overall,  a productive first turn.  One of the grey seers, his general is removed.

Skaven Turn 1:



Stormbanner goes away.

Movement:  All of his units move forward except his WLCs.  His second grey seer steps up onto the bell.

Magic:  I dispelled skitterleap, but he IFs a spell (on 2 dice) that acts like the stormbanner and he drains almost all of his power dice.  He tried to cast something else but i dispelled it.  Then he tries to dispel the -3LD on his stormvermin unit and fails.

Shooting:  both WLC aim at my regiment blocks of halberds and greatswords.  he kills two on each total.

No close combat.

Overall,  Skaven player doesnt do much.

Empire Turn 2:



Movement:  infantry blocks shift around to prepare for the incoming slave blocks.  Tanks reposition to fire at bell again.

Magic: Nothing of note.  Re-cast the -1 s/t on the slaves.

Shooting:  Both steam tanks fail their 4+ to be able to shoot.  Great cannon connects with the bell, but the ward save is made. First mortar fails to fire.  Second mortar direct hits on the seer, but the ward save is passed. 4 stormvermin die.  Archers fail to dent a block of slaves (needed 7s to hit and 4s to wound)

No close combat.

Overall:  Tried to take out his level 4 mage and claim magic superiority early but was unable to.

Skaven Turn 2:



Movement:  Two slave blocks charge the steam tank on the right flank.  Giant rats charge the other steam tank.  Everything else moves up,  HPA had to move around an obstacle that i did not put on the map.

Magic:  Dispel Scrolled his big spell (I cant remember what it did) and he finally dispelled the -3LD on his stormvermin.

Shooting:  WLC on the left takes out 5 halberds.  WLC on the right destroys itself (not shown in picture)

Close combat: Giant rats fail to hurt the steam tank, and the master commander deals 1 wound in return.  Steam tank is unbreakable.  2 blocks of giant rats deal 1 wound to the right steam tank, but it is unbreakable. 

Overall,  Tanks held up the sides as well as I could ask for.  His bell rung and destroyed one of my mortars but failed to destroy the buildings.

Empire Turn 3:



Movement:  Greatswords and swordmen join the fight with the steam tank on the right flank. Archers skirmish to the left to allow the halberds to move up.  Steam tanks both grind slaves.

Magic:  -3LD is dispelled.  Signature spell is dispelled (casted it on his grey seer).  He lets hammer of sigmar and shield of faith on the greatswords. (He does pay for that mistake in the following close combats)

Shooting:  Great Cannon overshoots the bell.  Mortar direct hits, ward save is failed, I roll a 5 for wounds and take out the other grey seer and the bell.  Magic dominance is the empire's!  Archers fire at some slaves and take a few out.

Close Combat:  Left steam tank takes no wounds and deals a few back with steam gun and master commander;  Giant rats hold on steadfast.  Right steam tank takes no wounds and deals some wounds to one rat block while the greatswords and swords put a lot of hurt on the other with help from rerolls to wound.  However, both blocks remain steadfast and hold.

Overall,  I took out his magic, and i started grinding his infantry.

Skaven Turn 3:



Movement:  He is looking grim at this point.  No general, no magic.  He has to hold with his slaves to get the HPA and the stormvermin into combat. He shifts around a little.

Magic:  None.

Shooting:  WLC overshoots the halberds.

Close combat:  Steam tanks take no damage.  Unbreakable keeps the left one still.  The right combat sees both groups of slaves beaten and both blow up dealing no damages to the tank and minimal casualties to the greatswords.  Greatswords reform to face the middle.  Swordsmen reform to face the HPA.

Skaven concede the battle.

I took the advice of many on this forums and concentrated my artillery on his bell and grey seer until it was gone.

Death magic is nice but I think this list needs a level 1 or 2 to cast spells when death is out of range or when there are no juicy targets. 

The Skaven player saw the writing on the wall and knew with no mages and no bell,  his 150 slaves were speedbumps for halberds and greatswords.

Edit: Fixed links

[Ratarsed]

Ha! I hope that teaches him not to take such a crappy Skaven army in the future.
Yes death is good, but as you point out short ranged. Ward saves and MR can protect against it if you suspect you will be facing it so it's wise to keep mixing your lores when playing people regularly.
Congratulations on the win.

[carmaul]

Ha! I hope that teaches him not to take such a crappy Skaven army in the future.
Yes death is good, but as you point out short ranged. Ward saves and MR can protect against it if you suspect you will be facing it so it's wise to keep mixing your lores when playing people regularly.
Congratulations on the win.

I think he relied way too heavily on the two level 4 mages and the bell and the slaves just tying everyone up until they killed everything.

[Cpt. Wham]

Grats on the victory!  A screaming bell list does not do very well against cannons, and the rest of the army doesn't do well without leadership.

With no upgrades of any kind, a seer on bell+seer on foot is 680 points spent on lords.  Even at 2400 that is illegal.

Was there something that allowed this to happen in the campaign, or was he just way over in his lords category?

[Ratarsed]

I think he relied way too heavily on the two level 4 mages and the bell and the slaves just tying everyone up until they killed everything.

That is a pretty rubbish strategy. If he knew he was against Empire, taking the Bell was suicide for one of his grey seers! I just looked at the army and thought, what an idiot, he's lost this game! Maybe if he was facing Warriors of Chaos he would have done better.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Hmm, I disagree. The Bell is well protected with its ward, he had the Stormbanner AND that spell AND two mages AND an HPA to draw fire away, and then two WLC's. With regard to the list, only the lack of a BSB is an (admittedly big) issue.

You could call the Empire player an idiot (which we won't of course, au contraire, thanks for the report!) for taking two STanks. This game doesn't even prove that the Skaven player had a weak list, it only shows very, very clearly how big a role luck plays. Because two WLC could have taken out both GS and Halberdiers on turn 1 with ease (or crippled them badly even with "just" S4).

Sure, 50 Slaves is a little too small but the concept of having them tarpit stuff and be annoying and finally kill everything through attrition is quite valid. It was a mistake to block his own units by charging in the Rats and it was a mistake to charge the other STank with both units, especially when some Greatswords are about to hit your flank. Tarpitting a STank with 100 points is very easy and very effective.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Well statistically the stormbanner should only protect the army for 1 turn of Empire shooting after that either the bell or the grey seer on top of it should die to 2-3 cannon shots as each time both parts of the model are hit.  Stanks are fantastic especially against skaven as they grant a 10 wounds cannon that won´t die to nightrunners or similar funky stuff.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Well statistically the stormbanner should only protect the army for 1 turn of Empire shooting

That's what it did. It's nevertheless some fantastic protection some armies would kill for.

The point is I don't think the list as such was bad.
 

[carmaul]

Grats on the victory!  A screaming bell list does not do very well against cannons, and the rest of the army doesn't do well without leadership.

With no upgrades of any kind, a seer on bell+seer on foot is 680 points spent on lords.  Even at 2400 that is illegal.

Was there something that allowed this to happen in the campaign, or was he just way over in his lords category?

He said they were both level 4 seers.  I did not check his list to see if it was illegal.  He is a skaven player though, so that fact alone makes him a cheater in my book.   

I think he relied way too heavily on the two level 4 mages and the bell and the slaves just tying everyone up until they killed everything.

That is a pretty rubbish strategy. If he knew he was against Empire, taking the Bell was suicide for one of his grey seers! I just looked at the army and thought, what an idiot, he's lost this game! Maybe if he was facing Warriors of Chaos he would have done better.

He knew he was facing empire, but I don't think he has faced them recently or in 8th edition at all.  At the beginning of each season of the campaign, you make 3 lists and you fight with one of them in each fight so they cant be too specialized against one army.   I think my list was a good counter to his though.

Hmm, I disagree. The Bell is well protected with its ward, he had the Stormbanner AND that spell AND two mages AND an HPA to draw fire away, and then two WLC's. With regard to the list, only the lack of a BSB is an (admittedly big) issue.

You could call the Empire player an idiot (which we won't of course, au contraire, thanks for the report!) for taking two STanks. This game doesn't even prove that the Skaven player had a weak list, it only shows very, very clearly how big a role luck plays. Because two WLC could have taken out both GS and Halberdiers on turn 1 with ease (or crippled them badly even with "just" S4).

Sure, 50 Slaves is a little too small but the concept of having them tarpit stuff and be annoying and finally kill everything through attrition is quite valid. It was a mistake to block his own units by charging in the Rats and it was a mistake to charge the other STank with both units, especially when some Greatswords are about to hit your flank. Tarpitting a STank with 100 points is very easy and very effective.

He did have a BSB.  It didnt do anything all game because it was in the block of stormvermin that never saw combat.  Most of the time he won combat and i held on unbreakable.  I think he had to make one break test, failed it and got to reroll it because of the BSB.

I think he feared the steam tank and wanted to tie it up with as much as he could so it could not cannon his bell.

[Ratarsed]

Hmm, I disagree. The Bell is well protected with its ward, he had the Stormbanner AND that spell AND two mages AND an HPA to draw fire away, and then two WLC's.

It's only a 4+ ward. 50:50 chance of failure then its d6 wounds. You can still roll 4+ with the storm banner and shoot cannons, so with just 2 statisticaly we are down to 1 cannon being shot at the screaming bell, so thats a 50/50 chance of of a wounding hit doing d6 wounds to his general! The storm banner is lucky if it affects two enemy shooting phases and Howling Warpgale does not affect war machines, only BS shooting and flyers. With all those slaves carmaul would have been an idiot if he had been distracted by the HPA or the non General Grey Seer.
The Skaven player was definately an idiot in this game. He should not have taken a Seer on screaming bell and when he dd it should no way have been his general. The army seems built around steadfast slaves. Steadfast 5 is rubbish. His general should not have been standing on his bell with a big shoot me sign round his neck. Madness. Screaming bells are rubbish at the best of times. Facing cannons they are suicide.

[Cpt. Wham]

He said they were both level 4 seers.  I did not check his list to see if it was illegal.  He is a skaven player though, so that fact alone makes him a cheater in my book.   

Ok, he definitely brought an illegal list then.  Sucks for him that he also made a cruddy list

I can't believe he KNEW he was going up against empire, yet decided to bring a bell, and NO gutter runners.  Total lack of planning or foresight on his part, and he deserved a whopping.

It's also crap that he conceded so early.  Even one-sided games can turn around, and it's always worth it to play the game.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

It's only a 4+ ward.

It doesn't get much better barring Chosen, Ratarsed. People brought and still bring a Waltar. It has the same supposedly crappy unreliable ward. People start to break out Griffons, which don't have any ward. Neither has the protection of a (supposedly just as crappy) Stormbanner.

It's NOT only a 4+ ward in so many ways. It's the best most can get and it was not the only piece of protection either but part of 7-8 other pieces, and he got unlucky.

Ok, he definitely brought an illegal list then.  Sucks for him that he also made a cruddy list

I can't believe he KNEW he was going up against empire, yet decided to bring a bell, and NO gutter runners.  Total lack of planning or foresight on his part, and he deserved a whopping.

Gutter Runners are always nifty. They don't help all that much to protect you on turns 1-2 when the army scurries over no man's land, and that's usually all it takes to reach combat and be safe from WM.

In their stead he had two WLC, which are neither worse than GR nor compared to Empire cannon. Had he gotten first turn, it isn't a stretch to believe that he could have taken out (parts of) the Empire battery, or seriously hurt an infantry block to the point that a unit of Slaves would have killed it. I don't even remember the last time I had a conveniently prepared position for my artillery (WLC have their eyes at hill level anyways).

[Burnes]

Isn't the Bell a character mount?
The second seer can't climb on after the first dies.

[Cpt. Wham]

Isn't the Bell a character mount?
The second seer can't climb on after the first dies.

Wow, how did I miss this part of the report? They absolutely cannot do that, and it's nuts that this guy thought he could. 

[carmaul]

Isn't the Bell a character mount?
The second seer can't climb on after the first dies.

Wow, how did I miss this part of the report? They absolutely cannot do that, and it's nuts that this guy thought he could.

I just assumed that a skaven player would know his book well enough to play it.  I guess this just proves that skaven players are cheaters   

2 grey seers and a bell is over his allowed in the lords slot.

[Ratarsed]

It doesn't get much better barring Chosen, Ratarsed. 

Not True. Ever herd of the rule "look out Sir"? Check it out, it's the equivalent of a 2+ ward against cannon shots AND allows you to take a normal ward on top. That is the sort of protection you should be taking for your general when you know you are facing an army known for its cannons and you design an army that needs the generals leadership to work. This is very bad list design IMO.

People brought and still bring a Waltar. It has the same supposedly crappy unreliable ward. People start to break out Griffons, which don't have any ward. Neither has the protection of a (supposedly just as crappy) Stormbanner.

Quite so. But I don't also see them build an army that is reliant on their leadership to function and the Griffon is much more able to utilise cover to shield from cannons and can get into the protection of a combat very swiftly.

It's NOT only a 4+ ward in so many ways. It's the best most can get and it was not the only piece of protection either but part of 7-8 other pieces, and he got unlucky.

7-8 other pieces and got unlucky? where do you get that from? Putting the general on the bell made him the No1 target. Other than the storm banner (can only be relied upon for 1 round and even then not certain against cannons) all he had was was the 4+ ward. I think he got what he deserved rather than being unlucky. If it hadn't happened turn 1 chances are it would have happened turn 2.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Ratarsed is right Lord Solar Plexus, putting the General on a Bell is a dire mistake against most armies, and an especially big one against Empire and Dwarves (and to a degree against orcs). Great cannons are much superior to counter battery fire compared to WLC as they will only wound on 5+ or 6 with most of their results (S2,4,6 and misfire make for 66% of the possible results) while a cannon always will wound on a 2+.

The Skaven list is weak....the Skaven I face I dread as every single model in the army seems to have a special mission and I can´t figure out whom I want to kill first...well I want to kill the General Grey Seer but he is hiding in a group of cheap clan rats in the back field. With that bell list....it is pretty obvious.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Well, you probably know how biased I am but I see and have seen literally hundreds of Empire players take the Waltar as their General, not least for the 18" range. How come they do not depend on it? It's becoming less but definitively not because of his "bad" ward save. If warned about cannon, the usual reply is "they're in my army", which may or may not be true but apparently goes for this Skaven list as well.

I'd probably put some cheap characters into the Slaves so that they can have Ld 8-9 with SiN and I'd probably field less but bigger blocks.

Fandir, good point about the variable strength, I probably would have shot them at the infantry. If that is dead, you don't need the Grey Seer, can get the cannon with Slaves, and shooting at him for the statistical two turns means the WLC and HPA are unmolested.

Remember that if you do not kill the Bell fast, it can easily kill your T7 cannon just because you shoot at it.

[Fandir Nightshade]

If you shoot at the bell I think you only roll one d6 so it isn´t that bad.

I don´t like the War Altar any more because I am afraid of Artillery trouncing my Lector, but when I field it I would make someone else the General. For Skaven the General is much mor vital especially if you build your army around slaves Ld 5 is much worse than Ld10 don´t you agree?

Lots of very good Skaven items or gimmicks missing. Doomrocket? Assassin with potion of Strength? No Rat Ogres? No rat darts? No chaff units at all? Why stormvermin clan rats are much better as bodybags to protect the greyseer

[carmaul]

Lots of very good Skaven items or gimmicks missing. Doomrocket? Assassin with potion of Strength? No Rat Ogres? No rat darts? No chaff units at all? Why stormvermin clan rats are much better as bodybags to protect the greyseer

He had the doomrocket but every turn he decided not to fire it for some reason.
But I was expecting rat ogres, gutter runners, or other annoying skaven only tricks.  He disappointed me with a subpar list but i took advantage of it.