Topic: 4K Orcs vs Empire, The Greenskin horde is simply unbreakable these days! :(

[Ambrose]

Nice battlereport, thank you for taking the time to write it up.

I've never played a 4000 point game, it seems amazing.  As for suggestions, I agree it seems dice rolling was a big factor in this game.  My first game with the new book I failed 4 of 5 leadership tests of my general which really cost me the game against OK.

With the army list, I think the Huricanum is far better.  I played with the Luminark and it's ward save did very little (random), never got the laser beam off (not enough PD).  I think the guaranteed +1 to hit from the Huricanum is the way to go.

Also, I feel two 10 man knight squads in addition to the demigryphs would be awsome.  I'd charge the two up on flank and take on his artillery, destroying it in short order if possible.  Another idea would to have some huntsmen start really close to his artillery, that way he would need to focus some of his infantry on it, or use his artillery to deal with them.  Diverting some of his artillery away from your blocks of infantry may just allow them to get into CC with larger numbers.

I was a huge fan of the WarAltar in 7th, but not sure now.  For it's point cost and what it offers, I feel points are better spent elsewere.  Too bad, I think the miniature is AWESOME.

I'm going to try and get a few 2.5k games under my belt before going this big, but looking forward to it.

Good gaming!

[mr chumley warner]

the weird thing is that 4K seems small now to me,

lol

[Ratarsed]

I think you are letting some unlucky dice rolls influence your army selection. Please don't take this the wrong way but it also appears you are expecting the army list to do the work for you. Rather than focusing on what he has and how to counter that try and create an army that works no matter the opposition if that makes sense.

 Cannons are very expensive and easy to kill. 2 should be enough to take out most big dangerous things.
Helblasters will not be that effective against cheap hordes. They are good for big monsters, monstrous cavalry, heavily armoured troops such as chaos warriors etc.
Steam tanks are very good. T6 1+ save and 10 wounds? and they have cannons!!!
My advice is drop 2 cannons a hellblaster an engineer and the Lector on Altar and take 2 Steam tanks and more troops.
Try lores other than Fire. Light has excellent augments plus flaming attacks!! Death is very good at character sniping and see your opponent weep if you get a purple sun through his trolls!

My advice is target the general if you can. Was he on a Wyvern? if so then that is No1 target for every piece of shooting you have. Take him out and the steadfast goblins are looking very shaky if they loose combat.
Also give the Griffon Bloodroar. It's amazing. 3d6 pick highest 2 terror, fear and break tests!
Does Soulfire give flaming attacks to shooting? Thinking it's only close combat and will have to check but if it does that is a trick you might be able to pull off.

[mr chumley warner]

Gareth, how could I take anything from you the wrong way? Not possible , lol.

Cheers for the advice,

Yep the general was on a wyvern, and i focused all the Hell Blaster fire at him, but misfired badly ..

Your ideas are definitely good , i have dropped the Walter and my new list is shown in this string,

I'm torn on the STANK , i've used it twice and it was terrible, I hate the fact that you are a sitting duck in your opponents turn, and with T6 it's weaker than before.

It would however hold up 80 Goblins for many turns... provided it doesn't fail the dangerous terrain test ref the bad moon banner !

Ok i'll try it mate!

[Fandir Nightshade]

Have you considered an AL with crown of command to lead your 80 halberdiers? (I suggest you field 50 or 48 with the General and the BSB inside)

50 with two times 20 is enough in sum you could field instead of 80 +60 140 two units of 50 with 2*20 (40) detachments drop the too large knights

AL kit could be white cloak, crown of command, ratslayer helmet, shield, heavy armour or armour of meteoric iron crown of command and great weapon
bsb could be plate, enchanted shield, dawnstone and sword of might

the main body and the two detachments should profit from hold the line, stubborn and hatred.

Also use archer screens to grant your knight units protection against the bolt throwers the first few turns you scream for your enemy to kill them with bolt throwers with 140 points of archers you should have enough to screen all the vital units from bolter fire. 2 cannons, 2 hellblasters and 2 stanks at 4000 points would be what I field.

Large body of IC knights with Luthor is good (large are 10 with luthor 11 everything else is overkill)

3 Demigryphons with champ are good

Lore of life lvl 4  wizard is great dweller those goblins and stoneskin your halberdier body.

[Qrab]

Also use archer screens to grant your knight units protection against the bolt throwers the first few turns you scream for your enemy to kill them with bolt throwers with 140 points of archers you should have enough to screen all the vital units from bolter fire.

How are infantry models going to screen cavalry models from bolt thrower fire? They can shoot right over the archers.

[Fandir Nightshade]

As long as half the model is covered they get -2 to hit that should be enought to save the knights from them.

Unless they are large targets...which they are not.

[mr chumley warner]

Have you considered an AL with crown of command to lead your 80 halberdiers? (I suggest you field 50 or 48 with the General and the BSB inside)

50 with two times 20 is enough in sum you could field instead of 80 +60 140 two units of 50 with 2*20 (40) detachments drop the too large knights

AL kit could be white cloak, crown of command, ratslayer helmet, shield, heavy armour or armour of meteoric iron crown of command and great weapon
bsb could be plate, enchanted shield, dawnstone and sword of might

the main body and the two detachments should profit from hold the line, stubborn and hatred.

Also use archer screens to grant your knight units protection against the bolt throwers the first few turns you scream for your enemy to kill them with bolt throwers with 140 points of archers you should have enough to screen all the vital units from bolter fire. 2 cannons, 2 hellblasters and 2 stanks at 4000 points would be what I field.

Large body of IC knights with Luthor is good (large are 10 with luthor 11 everything else is overkill)

3 Demigryphons with champ are good

Lore of life lvl 4  wizard is great dweller those goblins and stoneskin your halberdier body.

I thank you for your input...

My new list has 50*2 + 20*4 detachments.

180 Halberds !

 

[Fandir Nightshade]

Get the crown of command in there!!!

Also get stanks in there they are good...really good especially if you support with a lvl 4 lore of life guy even if you only get the throne of vines up each turn you can heal the stank for 1 lp for every successfull cast if you regrowth him he will be as new even after some serious beating.

Consider taking the hochland on the stanks so he can move around and take pot shots at important characters inside of units like a bsb or shamans.

take some crossbows (10-20 at that size) and put a priest in and try to get flaming to hunt those trolls one flaming wound and then open the barrage with hellblasters and cannons. Or if he dares to put the general on a wyvern again concentrate fire of cannons and hellblasters on him with the general dead they are what...ld 4? They will stumble around on the battlefield most of the time.

I suggest priests on horses with heavy armour and shield for both halberdier hordes they will have to the side of the unit due to different base size but that is fine for you also if his rock lobbas target them they don´t shoot your stanks and cannons.

[mr chumley warner]

Nice , 1 Stank back in play baby !

[Fandir Nightshade]

use him constantly and after a while you will think about two.

Kill the Waaaagh leader it is in all the tactical manuals in the battle college of Altdorf on "how to smite ye olde greenskin!"

Once he is gone the lesser leadership of the orcs will start to kick in.

[mr chumley warner]

yep I've been doing that in all previous games, I target him relentlessly.

The problem still remains that he puts a good highish Ld character with each big block, like his 80 Night Gobbos are always on Ld 8 etc

Hochland Snipe time then

[Fandir Nightshade]

and direct attacks towards them in cc. I would also suggest to use the hurricanum if you have the model instead of the luminark.

Or both as a 6+ ward save on the stank is just fun.

[Ratarsed]

Some ideas for you.
General on Griffon, white cloak, blood roar, sword of heroes, other tricksters shard. This baby charges into the Goblin Hordes. With -1 to hit and WS2 vs 5 the goblins are 6s to hit irrespective of fear tests. If you win they are testing on 3d6 pick the highest 2. Very shakey even on ld8. You make sure you kill the characters with the leadership as soon as possible and just thunderstom the troops. You may be challenged out by a champion on the first turn. Danger here is you only do 1 wound and lose by 2 (Charge and wound vs 3 ranks and standard) If your general kills the champion the Griffon being I4 will lose it's chance to attack and there is no thunderstomp either. That's why sword of heroes works so well. With 3 heroes in the unit your General gets 6 attacks making overkill almost certain and reducing the chance of losing. If you don't get challenged then direct attacks on his high leadership character until he is dead, then go onto the unit. You should win these combats and force break tests on 3d6 pick highest 2. Get doom and darkness off and with a -3 leadership penalty those goblins are as good as fleeing.

Arch Lector with AoMI and Crown of Command in unit of 60 Halberdiers with 2 detachments of Missile troops. Add BSB and another Warrior priest for prayer spam and you have a solid anvil. Prayers transfer over to detachments so you can give soulfire and the detachments will have flaming missile attacks meaning you can give the BSB some defensive gear and make him hitty as well because he no longer will need the Banner of Eternal Flame.

Death magic.
Spirit leech, Caress of Laniph and Fate of bajuna - snipe his all important characters. More effective than Hochlands IMO
Soulblight. An excellent hex and at 18+ affecting ALL units within 24" can be devistating if there are multiple combats in range.
Doom and Darkness. -3 leadership combined with blood roar on the Griffon! Even without Bloodroar its a game winner.
Purple Sun of Xereus. Whats the Initiative of Orcs and Trolls again?

2 Steam Tanks. Trust me these are excellent. Yes not as tough but now still functional even when down to only a few wounds left. You need to be careful with them and not think they can do the job on their own. They don't move very far so need to be kept close to your battle line. With 360 degree move use them to block dangerous units and support your other units in combat. The timely arrival of a steam tank with its impact hits will certainly swing the battle in your favour. Even on their own they can grind down even a large unit or hold it up until other support can arrive. A character with 4 Str6 attacks will be very lucky to do more than 2 wounds on the tank in 1 turn. Trolls vomiting could be nasty but they still need 5s to wound so it will take them some time to get through all those wounds, Black orks with great weapons could be dangerous to the tank so as with all you units you need to be canny in how you use them.

Captusus for war machine hunting. Sometimes the oldies are still the best.

Then add in your cannon, helblaster, Knights, Demigryphs and whatever takes your fancy and you should be good to go.

Waaaagh Chumley!

[mr chumley warner]

nice

[PrinceofPleasure]

Sorry, yesterday was a madhouse in here.

You've got a ton of points in characters
- So let me know what you want to include, ie "I love my griffon"

Working of your first list I'd make these changes
- consolidate the free company into one unit of 24
- Change the Halberdiers to 60
- and one of 40
- 9-11 IC knights with a WP
- keep the Alter drop the Sepeculum, enchanted shield, heavy armour thats a 2+ save, he doesn't have the same role as before. I'm not sure if you've ever played against or with a couldron of blood, he is very close.
He gives you a 18" general, who doesn't need to be in combat to buff his troops.
- BSB, full plate, shield, dragon helm, dawn stone 2+rr. with parry
- Drop the level 2
- Drop the Mortars
- use the points for a detachment of 20 swordsmen for the greatswords
- drop the second hellblaster and second engineer for hopefully a steam tank
- Drop the hunstmen for 2 x 5 man archer detachments on the 30 halberdier unit

These changes should give you a longer battline of infantry. With a far more capable mobile component.

Deploying the HBVG in your battleline, and cannons behind your lines, with the the lumincark, and War Alter. None of these need to hit, so they can remain behind your lines.

Stack the fast parts of your army on one flank, and use the point between fast and infantry as a pivot point or sorts. Use the Griffon, Knights, Demigryph and stank to defeat his vangaurd, and get into his back lines. Giving him two options, advance and ignore your fast stuff, or slow up his advance in the face of your shooting. If he slows advance, if he keeps coming forward move backwards, and deny him combat. The more turns he has to think about his decision to elave your cav and stank without a fight the more likely he is to turn part of his force to deal with them. Once he breaks up his battle line your battle line has an advantage.

This is all strategy though. Tactics will be determined by what individual units he deploys, where he deploys them etc. For instance If he deploys his trolls on a flank, stack the opposite flank. And make killing the general a priority. If he deploys them centrally, focus on slowing the movement of the trolls, as he won't leave them behind to be ganged up on, but soulfire buffed knights.

In terms of magic, you have the War Alter to buff you in combat, hatred, hammer of sigmar, and 5+ wards will be enough to tip combats. So choose a lore that will supplement your non-combat phases, metal, fire, death, shadow, beasts. With the list suggestions I would chose shadow.

Mostly we're looking at withering and Miasma. Miasma for dropping movement, withering combinded with flaming HBVG will help thin out trolls.

Or Metal, for +1 to hit and armour piercing, plague of rust to with shooting. Transmutation of lead to tip combat outside of the Alters, Aoe. By making detachments into combat units you extend the range of your buffs.

6 Dicing hammer of sigmar nets you:
30 S4 hatred, re-roll to wounds, and 18 s3 hatred and re-roll wound
Its not amazing but 75% hit rate, and 66% - 75% wound rate.

[csjarrat]

right, so in a 4k game, essentially you're taking one big combat unit (detaches classed as same unit due to proximity for rule effects) and two hammers?
by my eye, you have 4 decent combat units and he has 6-7 plus good supporting units like the giant to call on. it looks like you've spent a good 7-800 points in artillery alone, nearer 1k when the engi's are factored in. i know these are vital to taking out a couple of the big things, but it looks like they've been mis-used in previous games.
flanking units like giants, wyvern and spiders should be the first recipients of cannon-love, not trolls. trolls are pretty poor, let your infantry sort them out. hatred flaming attakcs will see them off in short order.

what formation do your detaches go in? 30 seems pretty overkill for a detach as they'll be very unwieldy. perhaps use one of the blocks as a unit in its own right and split the detach into x2 15 man detaches? that way they might actually be able to fit into flanks. i'd take 10 off the main horde and put thme with the 30 you've just freed up to make another combat capable block.
also, fire lore? its fine on a lvl2 but take something with more balls on it on the lvl4. shadow, death, light are all excellent choices here.

why is your bsb so naked, both of your cavalry units can take that banner? does your opponent not single out characters?
i play against OnG a lot and i can see exactly what my opponent would do, he'd doom diver the knights (where are your WM hunters?), spear the big griff (again, WM hunters?) gorks foot and curse of the bad moon the halberds (god that hurts so much! maybe cheap MR2 item or witch hunter?))
and then just pummel the rest of your army with superior numbers.

OnG's biggest weakness is LD. take out their characters! cause fear/terror tests! be more mobile than them and play the redirecting game. where are your pistoliers and captasus?

[mr chumley warner]

dont worry sir my new list drops the mortars and walter and focuses on character assassination and monster kill cannon eat,

PS: Pistoliers won't work, his battle line is solid across about 7 foot of table,

he puts all his arty at the centre back

[commandant]

Comet

[csjarrat]

dont worry sir my new list drops the mortars and walter and focuses on character assassination and monster kill cannon eat,

PS: Pistoliers won't work, his battle line is solid across about 7 foot of table,

he puts all his arty at the centre back

sorry mate, missed the page [2] icon on my iPad screen, its so bloody tiny!
disregard my post lol!

[MrAbyssal]

In one of your lists I noticed your General on Griffon has 2 Talismans. He'll need to ditch one, probably the Dawn Stone as most of what he'll be attracting will ignore your armour.