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Author Topic: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...  (Read 24062 times)

Offline grifter

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2012, 09:56:48 PM »
I agree that was the plan to shoot the harpies, but if the knights can engage them, then if the comet doesn't come down, we're covered. If it does, then the knights have a good chance of being spared.

The harpies flee.  We can't redirect into Execs, that's silly.  Now we fail a charge pinning the DGs in place because we can't redirect the Execs.

HHG!  You need to fix Knight footprint if possible.  Battle Chronicler is a bitch to fix mistakes, sorry.


How about shuffling the Kn1 closer to the HB so it canīt be charged by the Harpies, wedged between STank and Kn1. It would still have a firing lane to the Spear Elf block (I think). It doesnīt get rid of the Harpies, but should buy the HB another turn of firing at least, and the Executioners would need a pretty long charge to reach the Kn1 (and would present their flank to the DG1 and ICK).

No idea if it would work out without the actual battlefield in front of me though, maybe HHG can enlighten me?

Offline George

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2012, 12:31:09 AM »
Knights 2 charge the dark riders.
IF they flee the pegasus charges them too to cause a 2nd flee then redirects into the hydra...other wise just charges the hydra.
STank into the executioners with the plan to use the steam gun in combat.

The rest of the moves pretty much as Fandir has suggested, though I'd like the Knights 1 and archer detatchment to position in such a way that the shade don't have a path to move into our back field...and the GM knights postioned in such a way as to see the shades should they charge the archer detatchment and overrun.
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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2012, 12:31:58 AM »
Sorry-  I was traveling today and have been out of pocket for awhile.  Lots of questions....so here we go.

I kind of dispute that thay can't see the Shades BTW.  If you count the 12" squares over both units have models east of the 48" line (counting by 12 east to west).

This is a failure of Battle C's ability to depict a battlefield and my ability to move units on it...not a failure in iffy LOS.

-----------------------------------------

IMPORTANT!  I think the Vanilla Knights footprint is wrong.  6x25mm = 150mm.  DGs are 3x50mm = 150mm.  If the Knights are 3x2 than they need to be deeper rather than 6x1.

I noticed that once before and fixed it...but it must not have been in a version that I kept saving and moving forward.  I will go in an fix it.  Operator error, yet again.     :-)

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Hi HHG, how are the characters placed in the big spear unit? and likewise for our two knight units? thx  :::cheers:::

The two teams have never really ironed out where their characters are.  Probably something that needs to be identified as we move forward.

As for the DE, in the Green game, the Sorc is far left front in the Warrior horde, next to her is the Dreadlord, and next is the unit champ, and finally the BSB.

In the Blue game, the Sorc is far right front, next to her is the Dreadlord, next to him is the unit champ, and finally the BSB.

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Tank range from Spearmen and Executioners?
I actually think we lose that battle, let's see what the ranges are...


STank is 14" away from the Warriors.  The Executioners are probably too far away because the Harpies are in the way.  Better to hit the Harpies at 9"

----------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm Holy Hand grenade how far are the spear elves with the lord away?  If we are within 17 inches we should try a charge......Wyssans and the Beast might be enough for us to break the bunch  but at the very least we should be able to kill the bsb and the death mage deseperate measures and such ...eh? only viable if your Grandmaster isnīt in touch with his lord though. [/color]

21" away.  Two inches out of max charge range...   :dry:

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How about shuffling the Kn1 closer to the HB so it canīt be charged by the Harpies, wedged between STank and Kn1. It would still have a firing lane to the Spear Elf block (I think). It doesnīt get rid of the Harpies, but should buy the HB another turn of firing at least, and the Executioners would need a pretty long charge to reach the Kn1 (and would present their flank to the DG1 and ICK).

No idea if it would work out without the actual battlefield in front of me though, maybe HHG can enlighten me?


You can move the Knights to block the flying Harpies so they can't fit in between...the main disadvantage to this is that the Helblaster is going to suffer -2 to whatever it is firing at.  Which may be the case anyway, unless the Steel Behemoth gets out of the way.

---------------------------------------------------

I know conducting a battle digitally over a forum is not the easiest way to "visualize" it, judge distances, and make decisions.  But don't get frustrated with it-  it is a limitation but not insurmountable!  The main point is that we have fun together, learn how to beat the bad guys together, and become better players as a result!   :::cheers:::

So....did I miss any questions?  Anything else you want clarified?  I will start tallying up the movement "votes" tomorrow to see where we stand.  So if you want to make changes based on my answers above, get them in.  Or if you haven't posted yet-  get 'ur butt in gear!


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Offline Calisson

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2012, 05:15:27 AM »
Hi HHG, how are the characters placed in the big spear unit? and likewise for our two knight units? thx  :::cheers:::
The two teams have never really ironed out where their characters are.  Probably something that needs to be identified as we move forward.
That's a part of the deployment where I'd be glad to receive some insight from seasoned players.
Definitively it has some tactical consequences.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2012, 08:07:57 AM »
My thoughts on placing of our characters opposing the Dark Elves.

What would be the optimal placement would be only our Champion touching the Dreadlord. Our Grandmaster touching the bsb and witch and our priest only touching spear elves. The advantage of the champion touching the dreadlord would be that he can only kill the champion and next turn can only attack the knights unit only striking with S6 instead of 8 aginst our characters leaving us a 4+ save.

I usually place my weakest characters I donīt want in combat on the edge so they get as little attacks of the enemy as possible and the fighting character right next to him to kill in most games with his I6 enemy heroes that could be dangerous to him. Against High Elves and Dark Elves this really isnīt a thing.

Problem is you should do this when placing your unit as it is the same with striking at champions most forget about stuff like this but if you start pooling one or two attacks at their champions or move your characters in the unit the opponent realizes oh he plans something and will react in turn shuffling his characters around....but I guess we could try placing in the ICK unit champion on the right edge in case of the charge only him touching the dreadlord, then the grandmaster then the warrior priest and the rest of the unit. This way as stated the dreadlord most likely will murder our poor chimp....if we get horros off the Grandmaster will strike with 7 attacks sharing 4 on the bsb and 3 on the mage the priest would have 5 attacks on the unit and the rest also would strike at the unit. Even bigger advantage would be if he challenges with his champion we could accept with our champion and the dreadlord wouldnīt be able to strike nor could he make way.


Offline Windelov

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Sv: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2012, 09:21:33 AM »
My thoughts on placing of our characters opposing the Dark Elves.

What would be the optimal placement would be only our Champion touching the Dreadlord. Our Grandmaster touching the bsb and witch and our priest only touching spear elves. The advantage of the champion touching the dreadlord would be that he can only kill the champion and next turn can only attack the knights unit only striking with S6 instead of 8 aginst our characters leaving us a 4+ save.

I usually place my weakest characters I donīt want in combat on the edge so they get as little attacks of the enemy as possible and the fighting character right next to him to kill in most games with his I6 enemy heroes that could be dangerous to him. Against High Elves and Dark Elves this really isnīt a thing.

Problem is you should do this when placing your unit as it is the same with striking at champions most forget about stuff like this but if you start pooling one or two attacks at their champions or move your characters in the unit the opponent realizes oh he plans something and will react in turn shuffling his characters around....but I guess we could try placing in the ICK unit champion on the right edge in case of the charge only him touching the dreadlord, then the grandmaster then the warrior priest and the rest of the unit. This way as stated the dreadlord most likely will murder our poor chimp....if we get horros off the Grandmaster will strike with 7 attacks sharing 4 on the bsb and 3 on the mage the priest would have 5 attacks on the unit and the rest also would strike at the unit. Even bigger advantage would be if he challenges with his champion we could accept with our champion and the dreadlord wouldnīt be able to strike nor could he make way.


+1 :))

Offline zakalwe

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2012, 10:44:34 AM »
I am still in favour of using the STank to clear the harpies. It kills the threat to our HBVG, gets it right in the DE players face. He won't be able to ignore it as it could be in a position to charge his wiz bunker the turn after.
we can hold back with the DGK and KN then to cover the Dark riders. Shoot the warriors with both HBVG, hopefully a comet as well. If the executioners hit the Stank front, they could do 4 or 5 wounds ( assuming no debuffs/buffs), though this would leave them vulnerable to the flank charge and ensure hatred is lost should we charge in the flank.
granted if they hit the Stank flank, it would be in serious trouble.

The other Flank needs to redress to support the centre/ prepare for charges next turn. If we can get 2 rounds of 2 HBVG shooting at the 50 warriors we should thin them out nicely.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 10:47:20 AM by zakalwe »

Offline Noght

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2012, 12:20:01 PM »
Listen Greenies, this game is over if we don't put pressure on that Sorc Lord.  Plus 8 channeling attempts plus PoD plus Sacrificial Dagger = dead Stank next magic phase.

Heck if I had my choice I'd shoot the west Dark Riders and Harpies and try to get either the Knights or DGs past the Executioners.
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline zakalwe

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2012, 01:42:43 PM »
Agreed, lets hope the comet gets down this turn, and we cast another one. Assuming the wiz bunker is in hard cover from the HBVG's, we would hit on 6's?

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2012, 02:08:07 PM »
One learning point for those of you that don’t know-  Harpies do not cause Panic for other Dark Elf units.

I started to try and tally up what people want to do and it became very difficult because in some cases you are all over the map.

So what I did is try and get the gist of what you are trying to do, and find the majority opinion on certain units/tactics and then put it all together.  The graphs below are what I came up with.  I figure from here, you provide comments on what you would like to tweak/change.  Majority rules, of course.

Note-  I did not roll any dice for charge ranges, do any charge reactions, etc.  This is just an idea of what it would look like if all the charges were successful and if everything holds.

Team Blue

George made an excellent point about the Shades charging and Overruning past your Archer detachment.  I angled the ICK to be able to react to this, while using our other Archer detachment to prevent a charge from the Warrior horde.

On the right flank, Team Blue is aggressive.  Knights charge the Dark Riders, Captasus charges the Hydra, STank charges the Executioners.  The other tank moves up the hill to get out of the way to allow the Reiks to get into position for future action.

Any tweaks?  Comments






Team Green
On the west flank, the Knights get in the face of the Executioners and angle towards the ruins-  so they are effectively blocked for a turn.  The Demis move into a flanking position to put pressure on the flank and force Dreadlord to think about protecting his Bunker.  Obviously, with this setup, the Blaster is going to have to shoot the Harpies if they survive the comet.

In the middle, I kept the STank in place to shoot at the Hydra again.  The ICK moved back a little and the Reiksguard reformed and slide over.  Now these 3 units are mutually supporting each other if the Warriors get aggressive and charge any of the three.  This gives the rear Helblaster a nice firing lane to the Warriors.  And it leaves the tank centrally located-  so it can go either direction in future rounds depending on need.

On the east flank, the Demis press forward to put pressure on this side too.  The Knights cover the hill to prevent the Shades from skirmishing around the Demis.

Any tweaks?  Comments?



If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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Offline Noght

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2012, 02:13:32 PM »
Perfect!   :eusa_clap:
Man, I need the Comet to drop!

BTW, I should my computer with Battle Chronicler fixed early next week.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 02:37:11 PM by Noght »
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2012, 02:24:06 PM »
Is there any way we can get the reiksguard into the flank of the Executioners? We only need the majority of our unit in the flank angle...this would have many advantages one being we donīt have to take any dangerous terrain tests the other less attacks on them the third another +1 cr


Edit:

We also should get our archers closer to the enemy perhaps on the hill and start pelting the unit of the metal witch we will be in range of everything anyway better to get our mage into range of the good stuff next turn.


Other than that....perfect!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 02:36:43 PM by Fandir Nightshade »

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2012, 02:38:07 PM »
Is there any way we can get the reiksguard into the flank of the Executioners?

I can swing out wider...but with wheeling there is no way to get the flank.  I tried to multiple different ways and the distance is just to far.
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Offline Friar Metick

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2012, 02:41:32 PM »
Listen Greenies, this game is over if we don't put pressure on that Sorc Lord.  Plus 8 channeling attempts plus PoD plus Sacrificial Dagger = dead Stank next magic phase.

Heck if I had my choice I'd shoot the west Dark Riders and Harpies and try to get either the Knights or DGs past the Executioners.


I think your right Noght. Delves magic is devastating if left unchecked. I think the pivotal questions are what to do with the stank and how do we open up a lane to get our DGK1's or kn1's into the SB unit.

If the stank charges the Harpies it will happen during the compulsory part of the movement phase. I don't think the harpies will get a charge reaction. So if they get killed off by the stank it is still left out of combat and then taken down by magic on the delves turn possibly. If we think they would charge it instead on their turn with the exe unit, we could move up the kn1's to take the charge from the exe's forcing them to pivot away from the stank. But this still leaves our stank subject to magic, however if they don't kill it - it would have a lane to the SB unit.

The other option for the stank is to charge the Spr horde unit and hold it in place and draw a lot of the magic attention to this combat (heck  if we didn't have our lvl 4 in the ICK I would consider combo charging with the stank into the spr unit). With the stank engaged with the spr unit it would allow us to move our ICK unit up a little to get within the arcane ruins bubble with our lvl 4. Along with this we could charge the harpies with our kn1's. If they flee we would move up a max 6" failed charge. If the exe unit charges the kn1's next turn we flee and draw them forward and then slip past their flank with the DGk1 unit possibly. We might have to fight our way past the dark riders but I would not let that prevent me from this move. On the other hand if the harpies hold and we break or destroy them we could hold or try to hold and reform to face the exe unit drawing a charge that would put the exe unit facing the impassible ruins and jamming them up somewhat. I think the more multiple fronts we create for thier magic to spread over the better off we will be at that point.

Of course the HBVG's would be focus firing on whatever target is in sight to help shred them up all this time too preferably the exe unit as it has to try and reform to get back into the battle.

Lastly - east end- I agree with moving the kn2's and dgk2's up to threaten the shades (can't remember what weapons they are using but it may influence my DGK unit position in this case) and harpies. I would set up the dgk2's to also threaten a flank charge on the dark riders or hydra should they choose to move up. I would not be immune to moving the kn2's into a position to either charge the harpies, move over the hill, or skirt the woods where the harpies are to loop around and threaten the SB unit from two sides should it choose to slip sideways to avoid the west flank pressure we want to create.

Just some things to think about, not all the greatest ideas maybe but perhaps it will shed a different light on the battle and it will inspire team green to greater glory.  :-)
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2012, 02:47:44 PM »
IF we canīt make the flank bring the Reiksguard more on the hill so if we end up in the front anyway we should place them in a spot from where they can either ride down the executioners OR gallop into the center of the battlefield easier. So on the top of the hill with them.

Offline MrAbyssal

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2012, 02:53:53 PM »
All looking good to me so far.
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Offline Friar Metick

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2012, 03:05:00 PM »
Looking back at 2.1 Dark Elves list there are no weapons listed for the shades and Dark Riders could you provide that info HHG?
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Offline Noght

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2012, 03:28:52 PM »
Looking back at 2.1 Dark Elves list there are no weapons listed for the shades and Dark Riders could you provide that info HHG?

Dark Riders have Spears.  Shades have repeating Xbows.
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2012, 03:35:30 PM »
I think the time is yet again ripe to say....thank you Holy Hand Grenade for doing this whole thing I am incredibly interested what happens next and think about what to do next all the time.
 :::cheers:::

Offline Noght

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2012, 03:37:27 PM »
I think the time is yet again ripe to say....thank you Holy Hand Grenade for doing this whole thing I am incredibly interested what happens next and think about what to do next all the time.
 :::cheers:::

+1 Bravo!   :eusa_clap:
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2012, 03:38:52 PM »
And of course ....thanks for everyone taking part in it Team Blue AND Team Green your effort makes the whole thing so mind boggling and a fantastic learning experience!
 :::cheers:::

Offline SevenSins

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2012, 04:23:23 PM »
If no flank is possible the reiksguard might as well get on the hill I agree. Otherwise it looks good

+1 to what Fandir said, bloody brilliant this TDG, thanks again HHG!  :biggriin: :biggriin:

Offline grifter

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2012, 05:25:14 PM »
I think your right Noght. Delves magic is devastating if left unchecked. I think the pivotal questions are what to do with the stank and how do we open up a lane to get our DGK1's or kn1's into the SB unit.


1. While itīs true that the DE magic phase is nasty, I donīt think the spells they got where that horrible for us. The Metal Mage has 2 buffs, 1 de-buff, PoD and one (really good) Magic Missile. If we ignore her during the magic phase she can take out one unit if she gets really lucky and invests a lot of dice (plus, we still have our Dispel Scroll, right?).
The Death Mage is a lot nastier, BUT also only lvl 2 without the Sac Dagger. If we concentrate our DD on her, sheīd basically have to go all in to get something through.

2. I still donīt see why the Kn1 charging the Harpies would be worse then just repositioning towards the DE lines. What am I missing?

3. I donīt think we hired a Hellblaster + Technician from the Nuln Academy so it can shoot at some ugly birds. Firing it at the harpies just seems like a colossal waste to me...

Offline Dnic

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2012, 06:45:12 PM »
I support the picture ind HHG post 664 :)

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.3: To Charge or not to Charge...
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2012, 08:01:39 PM »
2. I still donīt see why the Kn1 charging the Harpies would be worse then just repositioning towards the DE lines. What am I missing?

3. I donīt think we hired a Hellblaster + Technician from the Nuln Academy so it can shoot at some ugly birds. Firing it at the harpies just seems like a colossal waste to me...[/color]

The only reason I think the graph depicts a better course of action is that if I were Dreadlord, I would Flee! with the Harpies. 
     --Now your Knights will not be in a blocking position...and the Demis would have to step into that roll or stay way back to avoid being charged.
     --It would give you one round of clutter-free shooting at the Exes at long range...but not sure it is worth it. 
     --Plus, shooting the Harpies probably guarantees their death, whereas forcing them to Flee from a charge means you will have to deal with them later



I think the time is yet again ripe to say....thank you Holy Hand Grenade for doing this whole thing I am incredibly interested what happens next and think about what to do next all the time.
 :::cheers:::

+1 Bravo!   :eusa_clap:

I do appreciate the kudos.   :blush:

My family thinks I am crazy spending so much time and energy on a forum... however, I think it is the best way I have seen so far in getting people involved and exchanging tactical ideas.  For instance, I think if someone read TDG 1, they would be better prepared to face an Ogrebus than if they had read an Ogre Tactica or two...

Back to this TDG....down with the pointy-eared Elves!
HHG
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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