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Author Topic: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?  (Read 16067 times)

Offline Quickbeam

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Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« on: November 30, 2012, 03:47:11 AM »
Since we got our new book I have found it increasingly hard to fit the amount of troops I used to into my armies.
I don't have any of the new stuff (besides a witch hunter which is fun) I feel automatically at a disadvantage because of their cheapness.
How would I remedy this in a smaller point army? Say 1500.
“An army of principles will penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot.”
― Thomas Paine

Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 05:48:34 AM »
It was not justified, but it is what it is.

The best thing to use at low points is bare bones halberdiers IMO. Knights are great because of their superb armor save as well.
CannonofDoom spews his shit at me all the time and I haven't banned him.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 09:34:09 AM »
The use of WP can offset a bit the increase in points.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2012, 09:52:31 AM »
NO
Have one  on Midaski's tab.  :::cheers:::
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2012, 09:59:54 AM »
The use of WP can offset a bit the increase in points.


Grrrrrrr!  ::heretic::
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline commandant

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2012, 10:05:07 AM »
It happens.   I could hire an entire army in 1640 for 500 pounds a day.   I wouldn't get a single tank for that now.

Offline csjarrat

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 10:07:46 AM »
I wouldn't get a single tank for that now.
you wouldnt even get the fuel for the tank for £500!!
Compared to the state troops they are a gentle handjob on a friday evening - jaggedjimmyj in ref to knights

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2012, 10:15:24 AM »
Grrrrrrr!  ::heretic::

I was not disputing that the raise was justified. Note the "a bit" bit. :icon_wink:
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline jaggedjimmyj

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2012, 10:39:58 AM »
Our militia were vastly OTT, so that raise I can understand. And flaggies being more expensive than GG seems in order. Move along now. Nothing to see here....

The new book reminds sonewhat of getting a blowjob (all well and good) and suddenly noticing that someone is pounding you from behind. There are two types of people: Those who ignore the member pumping them and enjoy the blowjob, and those  who just don't think it's worth it.
I consider my self to be part of the latter.
Archaon, The Everchosen, is one of two openly homosexual special characters in the world of warhammer. The other, of course, is Queek Headtaker.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2012, 10:43:39 AM »
It was justified look at the TDG we kick the ass of 7th edition top runners. You guys are just  spoiled

Offline jaggedjimmyj

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 11:08:14 AM »
It was justified look at the TDG we kick the ass of 7th edition top runners. You guys are just  spoiled

Maybe the DG's are the issue rather than our infantry.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 11:13:48 AM by jaggedjimmyj »
Archaon, The Everchosen, is one of two openly homosexual special characters in the world of warhammer. The other, of course, is Queek Headtaker.

Offline zakalwe

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 12:12:01 PM »
If your averaging 100-150 state troops in an army, that 1 pt increase costs you 100-150 points. You would be able to get another 30 troops ( old money).  That could make a major difference to a  game.

I think the new points are fair enough, this edition infantry got a pretty good boost. Its probably more to do with balancing the army books than penalising the empire, will skaven infantry go up too? i would hope so. 

I think as we are a much more "combined arms" force now. They want to push towards good synergy within the army, rather than a concentration of one thing. It seems all the new army books have been looking at the army synergy a lot.

Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 12:13:52 PM »
Heheheh. Penalising.
CannonofDoom spews his shit at me all the time and I haven't banned him.

Offline Noght

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2012, 12:16:19 PM »
Probably not.  The assumption that the units will get "buff" spells/prayers is probably wishful thinking on the Designer's part.

"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline commandant

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2012, 01:05:24 PM »
Probably not.  The assumption that the units will get "buff" spells/prayers is probably wishful thinking on the Designer's part.

I seem to recall a thread in which it was argued that the increase in the power of the detachment rule alone justified the increase in points for the state troops

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2012, 01:09:10 PM »
Well, the power of the Detachment rule is really dependent on the buffs the parent can get. Otherwise, it is worse than before.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Noght

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2012, 01:16:11 PM »
Probably not.  The assumption that the units will get "buff" spells/prayers is probably wishful thinking on the Designer's part.

I seem to recall a thread in which it was argued that the increase in the power of the detachment rule alone justified the increase in points for the state troops

I kind of think it was a push.  Yes you get the prayer buffs and status effects but they got pricier and now cause panic. 
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline mr chumley warner

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2012, 02:04:49 PM »
My issue is not with the Empire State Troop increases per-say, but more with the disproportionate points cost of other armies core troops in comparison,

eg. Marauders 4 pts etc



Ask yourself , what is real? 5 sense filtered reality is a very limited perspective.

Offline Noght

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2012, 02:07:00 PM »
My issue is not with the Empire State Troop increases per-say, but more with the disproportionate points cost of other armies core troops in comparison,

eg. Marauders 4 pts etc

Hang loose.  I expect the WOC book to fix that inequity.  They'll still be better, just not as much....
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline Quickbeam

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2012, 02:13:08 PM »
It was justified look at the TDG we kick the ass of 7th edition top runners. You guys are just  spoiled
yeah but them are some stupid and ugly ass pieces. Griffons without wings? Sure as hell ain't touching my army.
“An army of principles will penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot.”
― Thomas Paine

Offline Cannonofdoom

  • Posts: 7746
Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2012, 02:16:28 PM »
It was justified look at the TDG we kick the ass of 7th edition top runners. You guys are just  spoiled
yeah but them are some stupid and ugly ass pieces. Griffons without wings? Sure as hell ain't touching my army.

I think they're pretty. Certainly nice looking knight models, if nothing else.
CannonofDoom spews his shit at me all the time and I haven't banned him.

Offline Baluc

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2012, 02:24:53 PM »
8th edition infantry are better than 7th edition infantry. You also need less 8th edition infantry that you needed 7th edition infantry to do the same job. ie; hold, Thanks to steadfast you don't need 20+ infantry to generate the static res needed to not break from cav. Also in a basic 5 wide formation 8th edition infantry get 100% more attacks.

All this adds up to an increase in the cost of non-elite infantry, especially non-elite infantry with access to special rules such as (true) unbreakable or steadfast. Breaking from combat is a major deal in 8th with no half points, and no points for fleeing units, so any units that bypass or resist that are going to cost a lot. If however you aren't using the GW vp system I can see why you would feel units like flaggelents and greatswords are over costed though. Anyway an increase in the cost of basic infantry has been an 8th edition trend and it will likely continue.

What I'm forcasting is something like this,

Marauders 5 points, come with light armour, no marks, no great weapon option.

HE spearmen remain 9 points
Seagaurd come down to 11 points
Archers 10 points

DW warriors come with shields up to 8 points
Corsairs and Crossbowmen remain the same

Dwarf warrior, comes with heavy armour shield 11 points, replaces shield for 1 point for GW

Long beards get their own entry

I'm not sure brets or Wood elves even get a 8th edition book so I'm going to leave them out.

I can understand the frustration with having to play against 6 pt dark elf warriors and 5 point Great Weapon marauders, but in 8th edition the Empire army book is about right. Personally I feel if they were willing to continue the half point trend then free company could have been 5.5 points. However if they were 5 you'd never see spearmen as they would be better in every way. They however aren't as good as halberdiers, I do understand why the would err on the side of caution though, with spells like Mind Razor, and Flamming sword, 5 point free company would be a nightmare, think De warriors but with a flat +1 to hit, as opposed to ws4, and access to all 9 lores!

Offline Quickbeam

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2012, 02:25:14 PM »
It was justified look at the TDG we kick the ass of 7th edition top runners. You guys are just  spoiled
yeah but them are some stupid and ugly ass pieces. Griffons without wings? Sure as hell ain't touching my army.

I think they're pretty. Certainly nice looking knight models, if nothing else.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder  :::cheers:::
Your beholding sucks though my friend  :engel:
“An army of principles will penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot.”
― Thomas Paine

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2012, 02:30:02 PM »
8th edition infantry are better than 7th edition infantry. You also need less 8th edition infantry that you needed 7th edition infantry to do the same job. ie; hold, Thanks to steadfast you don't need 20+ infantry to generate the static res needed to not break from cav. Also in a basic 5 wide formation 8th edition infantry get 100% more attacks.

I agree that infantry got better compared with cavalry in the 8 edition. However, you definitely need more infantry, precisely everything is now down to "who can pound the longest". In 6th and 7th, my infantry blocks were a maximum of 30. Now that has become the minimum.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Siberius

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Re: Was raising the cost of our troops really justified?
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2012, 02:56:49 PM »
Did GW ever come out and say the points costs were increased because of potential buffs or is that just the gener assumption? Most of the armies don't have books yet. When more come out maybe empire infantry will seem more reasonable. I just wish GW would get a move on. I really like the new books but the waits for others mean any possible balance is not able to be seen yet...
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