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Author Topic: Fighting like an Idiot  (Read 12530 times)

Offline General Helstrom

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Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2005, 08:31:21 AM »
Hello Pantherlord,

Well... Calving already said it all, pretty much :) You rise through the ranks by post count, but you won't enjoy spamming for long around here. As you may have noticed, I deleted the meaningless posts. We encourage you to put as much in one post if possible. You can also edit an existing post of yours - using the "edit" button to the top-right of your post - to add pertinent information.

For more information on using these forums, I suggest you start in this forum, especially the thread marked "Read This First!".

Welcome aboard!

--GH
I don't know what Caesar thought when he got to the Ides of March
Don't know what Houdini bought when he went to the store
But I sure do miss the eighties

Offline Atchman

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Re: TVI
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2005, 01:26:53 PM »
Quote from: PANTHERLORD
ya that is the problem with middneheim. only their knights can get banners.  and multiple units of white wolves dont help very much in tvi style armies


Actually they are the best way to beat a TVI army!  You take some True Hammer units of 9 with a combat hero, and you can pretty much blow through the big blocks.  You need to take a combination of hounds and small knight units to take out the detachments.  Lastly, the Army of Middenland can take cannons which are perfect for sniping the mounted heroes.
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do no let your heart rejoice"

Offline Furgil

  • Posts: 226
Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2005, 11:06:41 PM »
well, i've been reading about the empire tactics for some time since i tend to play it about 25% of my games.  they interest me very much and i like the idea of using the TVI tactics in my future empire army.

however i've fought this type of army a few times with my dwarves, with great success.

my dwarf force concentrates on using extremely large units of thunderers (16 with full command and a champ with a brace of pistols).  3 units of these cover my deployment zone and are the only infantry units i have.  the rest of my force includes a gobbo hewer, 2 cannons, 2 bolters, a stoner, & a gyrocopter.  i like playing liek an idiot with characters so i only take 2 of the worst dwarf characters, engineers.  for a big suprise i take miners who are wonderful war machine killers and table quarter takers.

thus i have an engineers guild army.

i've fought the TVI empire army 4 times with this list, each time, thunderers and stoners slaughter the detachments with no trouble, even archer screens do very little to protect them for more than 1 turn.  my cannons and bolters easily kill those pesky knights down to a reasonable number like 2-3, so they have no real effect on my very tough lines of thunderers with shields and leadership 9.

the gyro march-blocks while killign a load of swordsmen, then continues on to the war machines, whos crews are easy to saly with a nice large flame template, of course since all TVI armies spread out their machines at the same time the miners take out the other flank of machines.  leaving me very safe from their fire.  however since cannons cannon balls cannot bounce up a hill, my war machines on hills are very safe, so all i've gotta do is kill the mortar first (very effective against my WM crews).  

once i've completed my slaughter of detachments i rank up and fight with my full command and 3 ranks against the swordsmen blocks, my superior toughness wins out since the infantry blocks are all low on men from gyro and gobbo hewer.  they break liek water upon my battle line and i end the game losing usually only 300-500 points of troops while the enemy loses nearly the entire force either to deaths or broken units!

the TVI has great tactics against most armies, but i must say it is a pleasure for my dwarfs to have so many great targets at all times!

lastly, your defensive wizards and priests are huge points sicks since they could easily buy a whoel new unit of swordsmen by themselves, and my 4 dispel dice stop everything they send!
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Offline Atchman

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Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2005, 04:09:51 AM »
Furgil, Who told you that your war machines are safe on a hill?  The bouncing rule only applies if you are shooting at a target that is on the low side of the hill.  If someone was targeting your war machine, the shot would sail over the lower unit and target the war machine.  It is pretty simple if you aim high, you only hit high, if you aim low your shot only goes low.  

Secondly, you've actually beat Tim Walker aka The Village Idiot four times?  I've known Tim for a couple of years now, and I doubt that anyone has a winning record against him.  In the last two GTs and one RTT I've been to with him, I don't think he has lost two games out of the 13 and that is against top notch opponents.  Playing against a player trying to play his list and playing against him are two entirely different things.  

I just think that perhaps you've played against a comparatively inexperienced player learning to play the TVI tactics.  Your army list on the other hand requires little or no skill, just good luck with rolling dice.
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do no let your heart rejoice"

Offline drizzts

  • Posts: 121
Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2005, 07:26:29 PM »
Its armies like furgil's that make wargaming boring. I will not play against people that (make up) so called army themes with the notion that they are fun to play against when really their intent is to play a loppsided game in their favor. I have serious doubts that furgil's army theme exists in any publication. The idea of playing this game is that both sides enjoy their shared experience together. I could be like furgil and play 2 cannons 2 mortars 2 helblasters 30 handgunners and the like, BORING!!! Try playing a dwarf army that is challenging to play and to play against.
As a side note, if infact there is such an army, then it's up to the generals to use a little discretion in army content.
"The only good orc, is a DEAD orc ! "
LORD Patton the Punisher.

Offline Rik Riorik

  • Posts: 236
Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2005, 08:03:42 PM »
:evil:

What are you to do with an army of M3? Go on a full on offensive (although it most certainly can be done) and take on all cavalry armies and their likes? It's not even as though Furgil's army is unbeatable. Far from it I'd say. Every and all of his rank and file are at 15pts. He has to take good care of his troops if he's going to be pulling it off no matter that he has a buckload of shooting. The Engineers army is a very popular theme. He's even including the crappy Engineer (although he is better than his umgi counterpart but that is only because the dwarf machineries are better at times with their runes).

Sure he is just sitting back and shooting but then again by doing so he is putting himself at risk.

I agree that it isn't all that much fun to play against a list that aims to dominate just one of the phases, but if you play the smaller bearded tabletop folk you must realise that there are only so many options available to you. It's not like your going to be breaking any units on the charge now is it and then proceed to roll up a flank or bust through the center of an army?

EDIT. Would just like to have it noted that I like to play the more "attacky" dwarf army of Warriors supported only by Bolters.
For the Graf! For Stirland! For the Empire! We go to protect Ostermark against the foreign invaders!

Offline The Village Idiot

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Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2005, 09:35:24 PM »
OK...I'll bite!

Quote from: Furgil
well, i've been reading about the empire tactics for some time since i tend to play it about 25% of my games.  they interest me very much and i like the idea of using the TVI tactics in my future empire army.


I'm glad they interest you. I find that maneuver is the SINGLE most important element to using this type of army well.

Quote from: Furgil
however i've fought this type of army a few times with my dwarves, with great success.


An infantry-heavy army is very difficult to learn how to control properly, and it does take time to learn the finess of maneuver.

Quote from: Furgil
my dwarf force concentrates on using extremely large units of thunderers (16 with full command and a champ with a brace of pistols).  3 units of these cover my deployment zone and are the only infantry units i have.  the rest of my force includes a gobbo hewer, 2 cannons, 2 bolters, a stoner, & a gyrocopter.  i like playing liek an idiot with characters so i only take 2 of the worst dwarf characters, engineers.  for a big suprise i take miners who are wonderful war machine killers and table quarter takers.


So you take three shooting core choices, add a unit of miners, and then fill up on special and rare slots that all shoot? A TVI army will be a BIG change for you then.

Quote from: Furgil
thus i have an engineers guild army.

i've fought the TVI empire army 4 times with this list, each time, thunderers and stoners slaughter the detachments with no trouble, even archer screens do very little to protect them for more than 1 turn.  my cannons and bolters easily kill those pesky knights down to a reasonable number like 2-3, so they have no real effect on my very tough lines of thunderers with shields and leadership 9.


Let me clear this up for Atch...I have NEVER played Furgil in a game against his dwarves. I think he means to say that he has played against a TVI-styled list. I'm certain of this fact because in the hundreds of games I have played against dwarves...I think I have lost 1 single game to them. Don't get me wrong, I like dwarves, my friend George plays them, and I have had many enjoyable games against them...but I would pound a stand-back-and-shoot army into the ground with relative ease...no matter how good their dice were. I would march across the table, taking casualties as I went, and when I got ahold of them on turn 3 or 4 I would push them and their war machines right off the table.


Quote from: Furgil
the gyro march-blocks while killing a load of swordsmen, then continues on to the war machines, whos crews are easy to slay with a nice large flame template, of course since all TVI armies spread out their machines at the same time the miners take out the other flank of machines.  leaving me very safe from their fire.


The Gyrocopter would be my number one priority target. Both cannons would fire at it the first time it poked it's silly little head out from cover. Pistoliers would also be assigned to it's destruction along with all the magic I could throw at it. It would not survive longer than the second turn.

Miners are an even weaker proposition. I have had battles where they did not show up until the rest of the dwarf force was off the table. they would at best get one single war machine, they would never make it to a second machine by the end of the game.

Quote from: Furgil
however since cannons cannon balls cannot bounce up a hill, my war machines on hills are very safe, so all i've gotta do is kill the mortar first (very effective against my WM crews).


Cannonballs DO bounce uphill, and downhill. They do not bounce up or down a cliff face. I think you have a very basic rule wrong here. MY targeting priorities would be; Gyrocopter, Goblin Hewer, Stone thrower, and then Cannons if they were still on the table. Once I cross the field all of your war machines will be destroyed.

Quote from: Furgil
once i've completed my slaughter of detachments i rank up and fight with my full command and 3 ranks against the swordsmen blocks, my superior toughness wins out since the infantry blocks are all low on men from gyro and gobbo hewer.  they break liek water upon my battle line and i end the game losing usually only 300-500 points of troops while the enemy loses nearly the entire force either to deaths or broken units!)


I have NEVER lost all of my detachments in a battle against the dwarves...and all I need is ONE to survive intact to turn the dwarf line. If I DID lose all of my detachments, then my cavalry would fill the role very nicely.

Quote from: Furgil
the TVI has great tactics against most armies, but i must say it is a pleasure for my dwarfs to have so many great targets at all times!


Yes it IS a target rich environment. But I can lose 100 models and still outnumber you...that's the point...you can't stop it all.

Quote from: Furgil
lastly, your defensive wizards and priests are huge points sinks since they could easily buy a whole new unit of swordsmen by themselves, and my 4 dispel dice stop everything they send!


I no longer take a warrior priest. 4 Dispel dice will likely not stop everything that 6-7 power dice can send your way. Ever hear of Irresistable Force?

But I guess the proof is really in the pudding. So let's get together and play a game or three, we could do a big write-up for the site, with pictures and everything! Just let me know where you are, and I'll pack-up the troops & terrain and pay you a visit!  :-D

The Village Idiot
Quickly everyone, chant the Canticle of the Battalion Concept. Maybe we can convert him!
-Rufus Sparkfire, Imperial Scrivener

Offline Furgil

  • Posts: 226
Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2005, 05:28:23 AM »
well i'll briefly explain myself here. it wasn't an attempt to say that your army was worthless... i just have fought armies that use your tactics as their core and flesh it out in their flavor.  your army and tactics might defeat me with ease, who knows, i don't really care... i was just trying to voice an opposition to what many have thought to be nearly "unbeatable."

i don't expect 4 DD to stop all spells, i just expect it (for being free) to stop a few of the important ones.

horde armies are not impossible to turn in a panic, so it is very possible for shooting to make them run... on a semi-regular basis, especially since they are foot troops.

cavalry in 5 man formations will pac soem punch but has to stay with the units typically or they will lose CR against a fully ranked unit of thunderers.  so that gives me some time.

gyro does well if played soemwhat defensively and protected from cannons etc.

hills that are determined to be sufficient to stop cannon balls is all the rules require to make a bounce up-hill impossible.  many of the hills i play with are fairly high and rockty and easily assumed to stop a cannon ball, but it all depends on what you determine the sceneray will be.

i've found miners do well agt denying VP's 120 for the unit since they typically survive and then gaining perhaps 100 VPs for a table quarter (or at least denying one) & another 100 VP's for a war machine.  that's 300 or so VP's for a 10 man unit, i'd say they do a good job, worth taking note of.

you can outnumber me with men, but i'm still dwarves and without a good flanking force there will be problems.  

all this is to say there can be a very tough fight on the hands of the TVI-style army against a dwarven gunline (a gunline that is extremely accurate and powerful) and here are some suggestions as to what you should watch out for.  

my origional post was not a bunch of bragging as so many assumed it was... i guess i have to be extremely clear when i criticise people's army lists and tactics or they get way too defensive.

PS:

i don't have the time or money to travel to play a single game, but if you do... i'm in dallas texas, if you are around these parts you could arrange to play me at a local GW store or hobby store.  would be fun to have a tough opponent for a change.  (just saying many of the players are not veterans, so it gets dull after a while)
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Offline The Village Idiot

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Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2005, 11:56:10 PM »
Quote from: Furgil
well i'll briefly explain myself here. it wasn't an attempt to say that your army was worthless... i just have fought armies that use your tactics as their core and flesh it out in their flavor.  your army and tactics might defeat me with ease, who knows, i don't really care... i was just trying to voice an opposition to what many have thought to be nearly "unbeatable."


I know my army is not unbeatable. It's been beaten many times locally, but rarely in tournament. The reason being that at tournaments most people try to take a pretty tough army that can put a hurting on an opposing player. These types of armies, with a sledge-hammer unit of chaos chosen knights of Khorn led by an aspiring champion...or whatever...do not do well against a horde infantry army such as mine. Your army is commonly referred to as a "Gunline Army" because the tactics are to stand back and shoot the enemy into oblivion. That tactic works well against smaller/elite armies but does not work at all against my army.

Quote from: Furgil
i don't expect 4 DD to stop all spells, i just expect it (for being free) to stop a few of the important ones.


I don't really have any "Important" spells that I rely on to do anything special...Re-rolls are nice, and the occasional lightning bolt can be satisfying, but my magic is usually purely defensive, so when I get a chance to actually turn the tables and be offensive with it, it does not amount to much.

Quote from: Furgil
horde armies are not impossible to turn in a panic, so it is very possible for shooting to make them run... on a semi-regular basis, especially since they are foot troops.


But you stated that you would concentrate on eliminating my detachments (a HUGE threat to your small infantry line, and a wise strategy) but remember that detachments do not cause panic tests in my army, so getting them to run will not slow my main line at all. If you concentrate fire on a parent unit you will need to concentrate a LOT of fire each phase to force a test since my units are so large...which takes pressure off of the detachments...so that does not look very promising either.

Quote from: Furgil
cavalry in 5 man formations will pac soem punch but has to stay with the units typically or they will lose CR against a fully ranked unit of thunderers.  so that gives me some time.


The cavalry are purely support elements in my army. Against your gun-line I would throw them forward on the first turn. You now get to decide whether you will shoot at them, or re-form to recieve the charge on my next turn. A dicey proposition either way you look at it. You COULD get lucky and kill enough to cause a panic test, which they MIGHT fail, or they COULD survive intact and slam into your troops, who now would only have a numbers advantage with no ranks...And all the time this is going on my infantry are slogging forward unmolested.

Quote from: Furgil
gyro does well if played soemwhat defensively and protected from cannons etc..


But you said that it would fly behind my lines and march-block while gunning down vast hordes of foot troops. To do that it has to expose itself to MY shooting phase.

Quote from: Furgil
hills that are determined to be sufficient to stop cannon balls is all the rules require to make a bounce up-hill impossible.  many of the hills i play with are fairly high and rockty and easily assumed to stop a cannon ball, but it all depends on what you determine the sceneray will be.


I usually play on GW based scenery. No really impassible areas, lots of terrain but none of it cliff-like. At least I have never seen such hills at a GT as they would give my Empire lads and your Dwarf lads a HUGE advantage.

Quote from: Furgil
i've found miners do well agt denying VP's 120 for the unit since they typically survive and then gaining perhaps 100 VPs for a table quarter (or at least denying one) & another 100 VP's for a war machine.  that's 300 or so VP's for a 10 man unit, i'd say they do a good job, worth taking note of.


I don't ignore anything...it's all a threat to my troops. But a miner unit that MAY or may NOT appear on any given turn will occupy 0% of my attention until it actually appears on the table top. It then will either get the full attention of my missile-armed troops, or be ignored as I move away from it.

Quote from: Furgil
you can outnumber me with men, but i'm still dwarves and without a good flanking force there will be problems.


I know that in a head to head match-up Dwaves will win every time. The high toughness, leadership, and armor save make them tough little nuts to crack. So I would simply not get into a head to head battle unless I wanted to. Being a Dwarf, you know that you hand the initiative of the battle to your opponent to do with as he/she pleases. A gunline army allows the enemy to dictate the battle even more.

Quote from: Furgil
all this is to say there can be a very tough fight on the hands of the TVI-style army against a dwarven gunline (a gunline that is extremely accurate and powerful) and here are some suggestions as to what you should watch out for.


I've fought NUMEROUS dwarven gunline armies, and rolled every one of them. ANY army of ANY race that allows a maneuver-based army to maneuver at will, is likely to lose, and lose badly. The only items that I MUST take out are the gyrocopter, and (something you have not yet mentioned) the flame cannon.

Quote from: Furgil
my origional post was not a bunch of bragging as so many assumed it was... i guess i have to be extremely clear when i criticise people's army lists and tactics or they get way too defensive.


I don't recall being defensive...I just disagree with your opinion. I think some people took offense to your tone...if there IS such a thing on-line...with statements such as these;
Quote from: Furgil

...slaughter the detachments with no trouble...
...my cannons and bolters easily kill those pesky knights...
...the gyro march-blocks while killing a load of swordsmen...
...crews are easy to slay with a nice large flame template...
...the miners take out the other flank of machines.
...once i've completed my slaughter of detachments...
...the infantry blocks are all low on men from gyro and gobbo hewer..
...they break like water upon my battle line...
...the enemy loses nearly the entire force to deaths or broken units!
...it is a pleasure for my dwarfs to have so many great targets...
...my 4 dispel dice stop everything...!


Can you see what I mean?

Quote from: Furgil
PS: i don't have the time or money to travel to play a single game, but if you do... i'm in dallas texas, if you are around these parts you could arrange to play me at a local GW store or hobby store.  would be fun to have a tough opponent for a change.  (just saying many of the players are not veterans, so it gets dull after a while)


I may attend a GT in Texas during the 2005 GT season. I have a friend who just moved to Texas and has offered to put me up for the weekend. If you attend the GT with your Dwarves maybe we could get a warm-up game in the night before?

The Village Idiot

p.s. Have you been to bugman's brewery? It's the best on-line dwarven site out there.
Quickly everyone, chant the Canticle of the Battalion Concept. Maybe we can convert him!
-Rufus Sparkfire, Imperial Scrivener

Offline queek

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Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2005, 02:19:31 AM »
TVI, Furgil is already on the Brewery.

He has made an equal impression there as well.

Offline Karl Schimmelfennig

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« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2005, 07:39:55 AM »
As in "bad"?
Famous Quotes from History:

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Offline Atchman

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Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2005, 02:08:42 PM »
Be nice!  Go over to the Brewery and make your own judgments don't go by third hand information.  I'm sure Bugman will welcome you since he is one of the three original mods on this board.
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do no let your heart rejoice"

Offline PANTHERLORD

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Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2005, 01:58:04 AM »
yes furgil is making a bad impression here.  never diss ones tactics, especially one who has won the Charlotte GT.  furgil, i just started playing and even i know that all shooty armies are not fun to play against or play as your own army.   :sadd:
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Offline cwalker

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Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2005, 07:04:27 PM »
TVI style works great vs Dwarves.

Played a game recently vs them.

The knights did great on the flanks, occupying small shooting units and war machines.  One of the units broke thru.

The infantry slogged it forward and the shooting depleted the Dwarf blocks so that my huge infantry units went into combat up 2-3 before dice even dropped.  A unit of 25 Spearmen w/Griffon std beats a depleted unit of 12 Ironbreakers every time!

25 Swordsmen w/EC can take on a 20 block of Dwarves and win!

The other Dwarf units were occupied with fighting Free Company detachments and Handgunners.

The Helblaster is killer vs Dwarves too.
Kill, Kill!!

Offline RGB

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Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2005, 08:17:42 PM »
Quote from: PANTHERLORD
never diss ones tactics,


Quote from: PANTHERLORD
even i know that all shooty armies are not fun to play against or play as your own army.   :sadd:


Bit of an ironic situation there, no?

Shooting is part of the game. Get over it. I'm sorry to say this, but get over it. Some armies are meant to be shooty. The end.
[in the good of life]

Offline PANTHERLORD

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Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2005, 12:21:20 AM »
I meant more of an entire shooty army with no other troops.  Lets say just thuderers, engineers, and warmachines.  Very dull. :bonk:
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Offline Tanker

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Fighting like an Idiot
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2005, 12:30:35 AM »
Ok, I feel like I should say something. I know Furgil in real life. He served under me as a member of my squad in the Army. He was a good troop.

He really is a decent guy, but he has a knack for pissing people off unintentionally.  More than once I had to pull someone physically off of him because of something he said.

ANYWAY, Aaron you might want to qualify your comment about being games being dull...It might help if you didn't spy my list and tactics on here before we play as you posted on Bugman's. I was rather suspicious after playing that game, so I checked it out and found your post.  :wink:  I also like how you "borrowed" my quote for use on bugman's.  :oops: I didn't mention it the last time we played to see if you would fess up. Granted, I am not a "veteran" as I don't get to play that often, but...

I don't know the quality of the other players you match up against, but outside of your 9 doomseeker slayer army and your dwarven gunline which I've played against one time each with my empire army, I wouldn't say that the about even overall win-loss-draw record between us would qualify as "dull." From my perspective our games are usually rather lively.

Note that what you said didn't piss me off, because I know you and know that you didn't mean it that way. I am just making a point. By the way, are you up for a game this weekend?
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Offline v. Sturmfeld

  • Posts: 195
Changing Count to Arch Lector ? Pros and Cons..
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2005, 04:39:48 PM »
What do you think, assuming that one would change the Count with the new Archlector ?
Poinst are nearly even (remeber, the loss and the points for the griffon banner..which IS a loss for the army ).
States are the also nearly the same , so the hand-to-hand combat power is the same.
But you will gain a decent anti-magic (remember the 2 dispel dices ) ..so you will have a comfortable 5 dispel dices.
Maybe it would be possible to drop the wizzard ? ( playing without dispell scrolls ? ;?). So more soldiers/units or another captain ?
Hatred would only be really usefull (against certain armies) when the AL is in a unit of knights (or even. pistoliers)

Offline Clarkarias

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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2005, 12:59:01 PM »
What about combining the Griffon Standard Unit with the Arch Lector.

Against armies he hates, the unit has to pursue, but the standard says they can't pursue...which is it??  (another case of magic vs. mundane/inate...)
Actually, forget Karl-Franz. I want rules for Thyrus Gorman on a dragon. - Rufus Sparkfire

Offline Atchman

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« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2005, 01:01:24 PM »
Quote from: Clarkarias
What about combining the Griffon Standard Unit with the Arch Lector.

Against armies he hates, the unit has to pursue, but the standard says they can't pursue...which is it??  (another case of magic vs. mundane/inate...)


Well my friend, the only way that is going to happen is either with a BSB or in a unit of Greatswords as you lose the so-called "Count's Troops" bonus.  I would say he doesn't pursue, but I'm just guessing.

I don't think the Archlector is a good choice in the "Idiot" style army as he is way too costly before adding his mount and Holy Relic.  He'll spike the point meter up to over 200 points.  That is a no-no in an "Idiot" style army.
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do no let your heart rejoice"

Offline PANTHERLORD

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arch lector
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2005, 02:50:24 AM »
what are the stats for the archlector? i never knew it came out. is there a new empire army book?
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Offline General Helstrom

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« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2005, 07:42:20 AM »
Archlector stats were in US WD, and they'll be in UK WD 304.
I don't know what Caesar thought when he got to the Ides of March
Don't know what Houdini bought when he went to the store
But I sure do miss the eighties

Offline PANTHERLORD

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« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2005, 02:49:03 PM »
OK, I just got the White Dwarf, it seems good excepct the points are high.
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Offline Ariakas

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« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2005, 06:54:51 PM »
Quote from: General Helstrom
Archlector stats were in US WD, and they'll be in UK WD 304.



are you sure...?  from where did you get this...?
"There is no problem that cannot be solved with a cannon"

Offline PANTHERLORD

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« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2005, 01:28:04 AM »
US White Dwarf 302.
Elector Count of Middeland and Grandmaster of the Knights Panther.  

Knights Panther own!