Topic: 7th Edition coming for reals?!

[phillyt]

Good point Mathi, but in most cases, other than army construction, the discussions should still be universally appropriate.

[Aldaris]

To be fair, those separate games have existed for a long time. I don't think it was ever fun, in any edition of the game, if one player turned up with a fluffy flavor list and the other one brought the ultra-finetuned facestomper special.

It just was never so necessary to make sure you and your opponent are playing the same game, because I don't think there were ever so many options for massive abuse in the ruleset as it is. If those options are turned down to a reasonable level by houserule/gentlemans agreement, I think the ruleset will be fun for both fluff games AND some good old friendly competition.

[phillyt]

I genuinely buy into Tasty Tastes approach though. 

It is going to be normal and simple for players to essentially look each other in the eye and just agree to play.  The extreme armies will be so rare, and so easily avoided, that it is worth little more than a slight bit of internet rage to discuss them.

I think in most cases it will simply be saying no unbound and leaving it at that.

[Aldaris]

Not quite as simple I'm afraid. Battleforged allows for insane amounts of abuse in many, many ways. And unless you know each other so well that you'll almost automatically know what's okay or not, it won't be that easy to arrive at something both players are comfy with without SOME kind of structure. Straight out of the book there is almost none, even in Battleforged.

[phillyt]

Battleforged isn't that bad.  The point value will limit what can be on the table.

I think the concerns are overstated.

[Sig]

Yeah, have to agree with everything Aldaris has said.

Frankly, the idea that people are afraid of challenges when looking at a rule set and saying "hell no" is pretty pitiful, and pretty arrogant. Time to hop off the hobby high horse. Maths is a thing, and you don't need to play any games to realise that virtually automatically losing two units turn one against turbo laser Reavers or Revenants is going to make the game an absolute waste of time to play.

That's what this is, after all. A game. Nothing in it is a "real" challenge. Trying to work out counters in 6th to D weapons (hint: there are none) is simply a waste of time. The countless battle reports from people who took anything goes armies to anything goes tournies detailing how much of a waste of time they are isn't somehow biased or GW hating, just merely confirmation of what some pretty basic maths already tells us. Things in this regard have certainly improved in 7th, but I still doubt people want to play against Revenants. A 1/6 chance to just lose whatever is still too high.

The new mission cards are ridiculous. It's possible to be dealt cards asking you to control objectives in the other guy's deployment zone, while he gets dealt cards asking him to control his own objectives too. Points are tallied per turn, not at the end of the game. So you lose, based on the cards. Fantastic! I certainly paid $800 for plastic minis so I could play a card game. Another waste of time.

Mathi is absolutely right, the game needs to be agreed on by both players and that will result in many variations. Kirby has been calling for some consensus between tourney organisers here and in the States, and it would be great for some unofficial standard to be agreed upon, so you could simply rock up and say "Kirby's rules ok?" and get on with it.

That all said, I think the basic rule set is mostly very solid and a step up from last edition. It's in army selection that it falls down. With better army selection, the terrible combos can't happen, the terrible summoning isn't a thing. The most you can get is an Invisibility deathstar, and people will deal. I'm optimistic that if the community comes together this edition could be better than the last.

[phillyt]

I think it is over stated. 

Remove unbound and double check with your opponent before dropping a lord of war and it isn't that big of a deal.  You get to pick at the time of play to do maelstrom.  We aren't and won't play that.  Enough variation with the regular game.  Even if you run into a guy who dropped $400 on a titan, the reduction in the D weapons means it is unlikely he will remove two models in a turn.  Odds are one, and for almost 1000 points, I don't see that as an issue.

[Aldaris]

My objections towards D-weapons have lessened considerably, but I'm still not too keen for LoW in smaller, regular games, just because they dominate the game so much by being such a huge part of an army. My personal take on it? Starting at 2000 points, 25% (roundabout) max in superheavies and I'll probably agree. That means yeah, I'll probably take on your Knight in a normal game if I know it's coming, but you can forget about the Revenant if we're not playing 3500 points or so.

[phillyt]

I think as long as you aren't bringing the upper level LoW models like custom stompas, super Ctan and Revnants at 2000, it isn't huge issue if you give a heads up.  Knights are particularly less effective now, since even a unit of terminators will murder him now.  They will likely die when he detonates upon death, but not so bad.

Giving back cover saves 80% of the rime really reduced the impact of the shooting D weapons, although those Ctan hellstorm templates ignore it and remain lethal as hell.

[Sig]

Knights are actually tougher now with the new damage table aren't they? Countered by invuln save units in combat though. Knights are probably less effective now. They might squeak through, especially now any army can take them.

LoW are just boring in normal games. Less effective than the god-like 6th version, yes, but still game dominating. I think the community agreeing on say 6th edition army building restrictions but with formations needing to be taken on a force org, the new ally chart, and no LoW/Stronghold D weps/Void shields, you can get a pretty fair ruleset.

All hail GW nerfing the Heldrake! Next up: rerollable 2++ saves.

[Aldaris]

All hail GW nerfing the Heldrake!

No argument here. It would be nice if it were coupled with "improve the actual fucking Chaos Marines!", but I guess that's a separate issue...

[phillyt]

We are doing the no allying with come the apocalypse armies.

Knights are more durable against shooting, more susceptible in CC, and themselves less effective offensively in both phases.  But they are still quite good.

Curiously though, Pask in a punisher is probably a much more lethal model with a second tank.  He has far out pointed my knight three games running.

[Sig]

I think actual Chaos marines just need to get CCW for free, and they're fixed. Most of the crap options in CSM are only crap because they're too expensive. It could really use a supplement to help you play Cult armies though.

[phillyt]

CSM are comparable to Dark Angels and better than Tyranids, so there is that at least.

[Sig]

Yeah, they're not atrocious, just boring and suffering horrible internal balance, a GW theme. I think the DA were bungled pretty badly too. Nids were terrible.

SM, Eldar and Tau were all pretty good though. SM has some dud choices but most of it is solid, same with Eldar, and Tau has almost no duds. IG looks good so far. Daemons are too random, therefore bad.

I really hope they don't screw up and make BA and Wolves Marines Plus like they did last time. Variation is good. Crons are holding up surprisingly well.

No Ork codex on preorder!! What's this crap?

[phillyt]

Word is it is similar to the Astra.  Scions and the bullshit codex were three weeks before the real book.  Probably a pre order for June 7th I bet.  Released the 14th. or so maybe?

Dark Angels are surprisingly close to the SM style.  They do get some interesting things and have got somethings to offer along that direction.  If BA and SW are similar plays along that theme it will be cool enough.  I agree though, hopefully they don't go all nutty with them and just add to the SM book, which is legitimately fantastic!

[Finlay]

They never release codex in the first week of releasees anymore. I expect ork dex a fortnight after the morkonaut

[phillyt]

Carnage battle today.  7th edition has resulted in some interest changes, for sure!

Our limitations were simple:  No unbound.  That was it.

My deployment:




My list was what I said it would be with a couple changes:

1 Big Mek - Kustom Force Field
1 Big Mek - Kustom Force Field

5 lootas

1 Big Mek Deff Dredd - 3 CCW 1 skorcha
1 Big Mek Deff Dredd - 4 CCW
10 Ork Shoota Boyz - 1 big shootas - Trukk

Fast:
1 Dakkajet - fight ace, additional supa shoota

Heavy:
3 Killa Kans - rokkit launchers
3 Killa Kans - rokkit launchers
1 Mega Dredd - Kill cannon, mega klaw, 2 skorchas
10 Flash Gitz - Battlewagon - deff rolla, 2 big shootas, one cannon

Tyranid Deployment:



Flyrant with 2 twin linked devourers
Tervigon - cluster spins

Tyranofex
25 termagaunt - 10 devourers 15 fleshborers
25 termagaunt - 10 devourers 15 fleshborers

3 warriors - 2 deathspiters 1 strangler
3 warriors - 2 deathspiters 1 strangler
3 warriors - 2 deathspiters 1 strangler
1 venomthrope
1 venomthrope

Chaos Deployment:

Chaos Lord of nurgle - demonic flasmer thing, power fist

20 Chaos Marines - 2 melta guns - power fist, mark of burgle
10 Chaos Marines - plasma gun, laser cannon
10 Chaos Marines - plasma gun, laser cannon

3 Obliterators
1 Defiler
1 helldrake



After we all moved first turn:



Second Turn movement:



Turn 3 movement:



Turn 5 movement:



End Game:



I won with the flash glitz wagon touching the artifact.

Highlights:

Flashgitz did well.  They wasted their shooting for two turns, shooting the obliterators for only one wound on 11 wounds. FInally they rolled a 2 for AP and killed the three in one turn.  Next turn they rolled another 2 and killed 9 Nurgle marines.  They ended up getting bot their and their wagon's points back.

Vehicles really are FAR more durable.  Monsterous creatures with only S6 CANNOT handle deff dreads.  The dreads chopped through two units of warriors, one took out the tyranofex by itself.  Between the two deff dreads alone, they wracked up the following kills:

38 termagaunts
1 tyranofex
6 warriors

And they were moving to finish off the tervigon and other models when the game ended.  They were down to 1 and 2 hull points though.  Having only a single smash attack really hurts MC.

[Finlay]

And everyone having to go to the middle negates their slow movement! Dreads that is.