Topic: AoS Humans and the coming of Old World, some thoughts.

[S.O.F]

So I noticed this statement the other day so other than change course of that thread:

I also personally feel people tend to misunderstand why GW is returning to the Old World, and label at correcting a mistake, when it a lot of ways its the exact opposite of that.

As we are over half a decade into AoS and have seen little to nothing of humans in this setting (Chaotic humans don't count). Does anyone else think it possible that Old World minis, in which much of the information so far has been human-centric, That what they end up releasing is aimed to have a greater deal of cross compatibility. The Warhammer 3 stuff has shown largely things more in vein with older Warhammer stuff on say Kislev yet the concept art work tends to go a bit heavier on the magicy bits. Also given that other than humans there isn't as great a deal of technological or even fashion changes in such a small time difference between Warhammer when we last saw it and the new yet older setting that whatever new kits they turn out would be designed to work in both settings (AoS and then also this new Olde World).

Thoughts folks?

[Gankom]

Oh yes, I fully agree with all that. I wouldnt surprise me at all if they're looking at cross compatibility AND use that as the best time to introduce more human centric stuff into AoS. We have the cities of sigmar books, but even a lot of the gossip behind that getting released shows GW has been more focused on the non human (and likely more easily copyrightable) factions. Although interestingly, a surprising number of the books and short stories for AoS are from human, free guild or cities of sigmar points of views.

The Old World stuff has been excellent and very in keeping with the old ascetics yet imo still a pretty big step up on the amount of magic. Far more end of 8th then earlier.

[S.O.F]

Although interestingly, a surprising number of the books and short stories for AoS are from human, free guild or cities of sigmar points of views.

Isn't that par for the fantasy course though, normal human protagonists are the standard as they are much easier to connect to the reader, and the author for that matter, than a Fantastic race.

[Gankom]

Oh its very par for course, but the part I find surprising is how they seem to have minimized humans everywhere else, but still keep the novels focused on them. And often the novels are generally focused on whatever new popular thing they want to sell, or at least tied into existing factions to try and push sales. Where as in AoS it seems to be very separate.

[GamesPoet]

So I noticed this statement the other day so other than change course of that thread:

I also personally feel people tend to misunderstand why GW is returning to the Old World, and label at correcting a mistake, when it a lot of ways its the exact opposite of that.

As we are over half a decade into AoS and have seen little to nothing of humans in this setting (Chaotic humans don't count). Does anyone else think it possible that Old World minis, in which much of the information so far has been human-centric, That what they end up releasing is aimed to have a greater deal of cross compatibility. The Warhammer 3 stuff has shown largely things more in vein with older Warhammer stuff on say Kislev yet the concept art work tends to go a bit heavier on the magicy bits. Also given that other than humans there isn't as great a deal of technological or even fashion changes in such a small time difference between Warhammer when we last saw it and the new yet older setting that whatever new kits they turn out would be designed to work in both settings (AoS and then also this new Olde World).

Thoughts folks?

W:AoS seems to be doing well, and has some skirmish games that have spawned off it, and this after WFB seemed to have not been doing too well during 8th edition, perhaps due to high entry cost to a game and where those remaining needed to have more figures as well, and after a terrible start to W:AoS.  Evidently they had ideas on how to move the brand and product forward using the other factions, making entry point lower for new folks, and changing course with the W:AoS rules.  With the move back towards an Old World effort, seem they'll have plenty of new folks from W:AoS, those that migrated, and those who still enjoy, plus all those in between, who could be attracted by things like Kislev, Cathay, maybe even Bretonnia and the Empire as well, plus rumors of Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs being what they are.  And a low entry point for figures with all the rest already available via W:AoS.  So yes, a wise move to have the new figures transferable.  Although a question is ... will they go with round or square bases.

[Gankom]

They seem to have been cashing in on saying its going to be square bases, so we can remain hopeful for that! I think a big part of TOW is aimed at cashing in on the popularity of the Total War game. I'm super curious to see how many folks actually make the transition from the video game to the tabletop game.

[GamesPoet]

Well going with the square bases will certainly cause W:AoS folks to buy more minis or rebase, if they want to make the transition with existing ones.  And yes, it'll be interesting to see if video folks play at the table top too.

[S.O.F]

And yes, it'll be interesting to see if video folks play at the table top too.

My guess would be no unless, for once, they make a core ruleset that scales well across battle size and still features ranked combat. I would think they probably will make the rules work with round bases in some sort of movement tray set up to allow for ease of cross usage.

Again it doesn't make sense for GW to put out a whole section of AoS they have ignored miniature wise with what might be a very niche return of a classic setting. Then they did kill many of those excellent plastic say Tomb Kings kits after they had been out for such a short period of time.

[GamesPoet]

Maybe they'll bring them back.  Ha! Maybe.

[S.O.F]

Maybe they'll bring them back.  Ha! Maybe.

That means I should put my on sprue Necropolis Knights on Ebay to reap the insane scarcity boom then eh. Further note on that I found that you can get resin casts of the Tomb Guard kit from China what with IP law be damned there.

[GamesPoet]

Don't get me started on China, those schmucks.  I almost started writing more.

And I've been walking away from purchasing anything made in China anymore as much as possible.

[Old Stonebeard]

Far more end of 8th then earlier.

That's actually a really good way of putting the Old World aesthetic we've seen thus far. WHFB was definitely tracking toward fantastical even before AOS- you need look no further than Storm of Magic, the post-8th models, and especially Dreadfleet to see that. WHFB went thru some pretty dramatic design direction swings over the years, and it was definitely tracking toward another one. If you read James Hewitt's interview about the start of AOS, when they caught glimpses of the game's design but before they knew it was going to be a reboot, they fully expected things like the Sylvaneth to end up in WHFB.

Where as in AoS it seems to be very separate.

There's definitely a weird dichotomy which I hope heals over time. It may have also been a whiplash at how badly the original, Stormcast-centric book series bombed.

As we are over half a decade into AoS and have seen little to nothing of humans in this setting (Chaotic humans don't count). Does anyone else think it possible that Old World minis, in which much of the information so far has been human-centric, That what they end up releasing is aimed to have a greater deal of cross compatibility.

For my part, I'm... skeptical, that the models will be deliberately cross-compatible. GW would much rather have you buy into 2 sets of product than share product across multiple games. Personally, my theory has always been that, with Horus Heresy wrapping up, the Old World will be FW's next cash cow to milk hardcore fans like W-E regulars out of their hard earned.

And, as others have said, humans are baked into the setting at this point- the latest Broken Realms supplement, as well as the Forbidden Power supplement, were centered around the human cities of Anvilgard and Lethis respectively. That said, we also know Cities of Sigmar was a passion project of designer Sam Pearson that likely would have been ignored otherwise. It's unfortunate, but after decades of such heavy historical influences in the human armies, it seems like the current design team has no interest in normal humans. The same can be said for the 40k side of things- with half a dozen interesting regiments featured in every Codex, they're still limping by on decade-old Cadians. The Ventrillian Nobles, introduced in the most recent Codex, even use Empire parts to spice up the range!

Alex

[Jmash]

For my part, I'm... skeptical, that the models will be deliberately cross-compatible. GW would much rather have you buy into 2 sets of product than share product across multiple games.

Tied with what was being talked about above regarding square or round bases - I wouldn't be surprised if the models will be relatively cross-compatible, but you will need two separate armies of them, one based on squares the other on rounds depending on which game you want to use them in!

£££

[S.O.F]

Personally, my theory has always been that, with Horus Heresy wrapping up, the Old World will be FW's next cash cow to milk hardcore fans like W-E regulars out of their hard earned.

I just don't see tOW being a cash cow though, especially if it skews FW heavy. Destroying the Old World at the end of the 8th also I think by in large destroyed the need in any of us that stuck to the setting to keep to any sort of GW minis only policy. Sure if so really nice stuff comes out I'll consider it but many other mini makers are in a pretty good competition for those dollars now.

Cross compatibility is about the only way I can see it working.

[Warlord]

I dont expect cross compatibility. I expect extremely specialised movement trays for round bases to rank.

[Gankom]

I just don't see tOW being a cash cow though, especially if it skews FW heavy.

I DEEPLY agree with SOF on this one. There's a lot of folks out there, especially on the WHFB discords I notice, that think the Old World is heralding the return of another major stream game that's going to get even bigger then AoS or 40k. I suspect the real answer is that its going to bring in a tidy profit, which is why they're doing it, but not exactly explode. The Total War games will feed it, but I have a hard time seeing that much cross over.

[GamesPoet]

And I was just thinking to this ...

And yes, it'll be interesting to see if video folks play at the table top too.

My guess would be no unless, for once, they make a core ruleset that scales well across battle size and still features ranked combat. I would think they probably will make the rules work with round bases in some sort of movement tray set up to allow for ease of cross usage.

Well, I did write "if".  Yet I don't think going from video games to table top games with have much to do with how the rules system ends up.  And square or round probably won't make a difference to  attracting video game players either.

[S.O.F]

Well, I did write "if".  Yet I don't think going from video games to table top games with have much to do with how the rules system ends up.  And square or round probably won't make a difference to  attracting video game players either.

It's the going from thousands of well rendered models at the $60 point of entry to paying that for maybe 40 you have to put together and take the time to get that stage on the tabletop. If Warhammer Total War was as moddable from a campaign aspect as say Medieval 2 I certainly could part with more of my miniature collection . Shame the game plays very 5th edition plus gunlines but that is largely due to the AI getting such great cheats on melee troops making whatever the player takes crap.

There's a lot of folks out there, especially on the WHFB discords I notice, that think the Old World is heralding the return of another major stream game that's going to get even bigger then AoS or 40k.

Yeah I just don't see it myself, a return would be nice but a part of me also feels it as a game system on its own it will be largely DOA beyond a few. Rank and Flank has to many other easy options for the niches people are after.  Hard RAW and competitive types most likely won't be swayed away from the better written rules of 9th Age and those of us more background inclined are also less inclined to care about sticking to the new rules or even miniatures. Using tOW humans as subs into AoS seems the winning strategy and, with the ever so immense and diverse setting of the Mortal Realms that is touted all the time yet never evidenced by human miniatures, it seems an easy strategy at that. 

[GamesPoet]

And I was just thinking to this ...

And yes, it'll be interesting to see if video folks play at the table top too.

My guess would be no unless, for once, they make a core ruleset that scales well across battle size and still features ranked combat. I would think they probably will make the rules work with round bases in some sort of movement tray set up to allow for ease of cross usage.

Well, I did write "if".  Yet I don't think going from video games to table top games with have much to do with how the rules system ends up.  And square or round probably won't make a difference to  attracting video game players either.

It's the going from thousands of well rendered models at the $60 point of entry to paying that for maybe 40 you have to put together and take the time to get that stage on the tabletop. If Warhammer Total War was as moddable from a campaign aspect as say Medieval 2 I certainly could part with more of my miniature collection . Shame the game plays very 5th edition plus gunlines but that is largely due to the AI getting such great cheats on melee troops making whatever the player takes crap.

Sorry, I thought the chatting was about going from videos to tabletop, not the other way around.  Regardless, either way, I question how much drift from one to the other is really going to happen.  There will be some, some of those who enjoy both.  And around here I aware of table top folks playing both, although there seems to be less video gamers who go to the table top.  But that's just a localized view that probably isn't the best perspective from a numbers point.  I think there could be more cross over coming from W:AoS, but haven't seen any information on how this kind of thing could go, no polls, questionnaires, surveys, or whatever. Hopefully GW is looking at that, and has a plan, but I'm not betting on it either.

[Captain Dob Van Dwi]

Truth is that TOW will do just about as well as WFB. Most people are not looking for a thought intensive rank and flank game these days. People want mindless fun.

The current video game market is a great example. Just look at all the brain dead FPS games out there. CoD,  MoH,  Halo, Doom and even more especially Borderlands.
The miriad of nonsense that comes out compleatly crushes RTS, RP-RTS, RPGs. It blows GS games like CK2 out of the water.

The fact of the matter is that people play games for an ecsape. WFB was not that for most people. Not to mention all the barriers to entry. Price, the number of models needed for big games, an ageing old guard were were (at least in my area) total asshats, etc, etc. The more complex rules of 8th ed didin't help either. 6th ed (though i never played it) is widley regarded as GW's fantasy magnun opis. But since that is in the past, GW will once again try to one up itself and bash together a number of rediclious rules that will kill the OW too.

Yeah I don't got any hopes for this.

But more on the thread's topic.

I make it no secret that I despise End Times lore for it's truly horrendous writing and total disregard for established lore. AoS lore is only decent because it's a cheap D&D knock off with warhammery things tacked on. Both have treated humanity pretty dirty.

I really don't see that changing anytime soon. I mean all we have to do is lokk at AoS. For all of the postureing and writing about the Free Cities, we still have not seen any new infantry or cavalry minis. And while the current 6th/7th/8th ed Empire line is perfectly satisfactory and somthing that I expected not to change for a long time I DID expect a new batch or even line of heroes.

However we have not seen any particular advancement in the character range. Sans the heroes from Cursed City (I'm still salty I was not able to get a copy) and the father-daughter witch hunter duo,  we have had nothing. No new FG generals or captains. No new priests of Sigmar, which is somthing I DEFINITELY expected. We don't have a priest of Grungni, who is worshiped by all craftsmen regardless of race. That would be cool.

We still have not seen any replacements of the defunct Bretonnian line either, and while Brets will be returning in TOW I would LOVE to see their descendants in AoS. A Gilles le Breton (the Uniter) mini would be amazing, might even get me interested in playing AoS.

Again I don't got my hopes up though. For most people games are about ecsapism, mindless fun, as I said before. Hard to do that with humans, even in a fantasy setting.

[GamesPoet]

Yes, getting our hopes up for the rules to be good isn't wise, we could be seriously disappointed.  Although, with all the time between the first announcement and mentioned release time frame, that gives them some time to do some playtesting, but  we'll see.

By bringing new figures for the Old World humans ... already they are talking up Cathay and Kislev, and hoping for new Bret, maybe even some more Empire (although not counting on the latter anytime soon) ... that'll give more reason for updates to W:AoS so that the figures can be used there as well.

[Jmash]

By bringing new figures for the Old World humans ... already they are talking up Cathay and Kislev, and hoping for new Bret, maybe even some more Empire (although not counting on the latter anytime soon) ... that'll give more reason for updates to W:AoS so that the figures can be used there as well.

This has been mentioned somewhere else as well, about Kislev and Cathay being big in the forthcoming Dawn of War III. As a non-player I can't comment on rules but I HIGHLY suspect the new Old World revival (if we can call it that) is going to focus heavily on those areas at first. New miniatures to mirror what is in the video game. New units unlike anything from game past or present means they can create and test a new style of play probably somewhere in between the rank and file of the old days and the mad scraps of AoS, how successful that will be who knows. The setting and lore is undeniably Old World but because the style of warfare for Cathay and Kislev is currently undefined it gives them a blank slate to go mad and try to find what sticks, all the while hopefully not alienating the fanbase.

Given what they've been doing with 40K recently I reckon they're going to try to build something that has the potential to be played at any scale, huge armies facing off against one another will use a particular ruleset, whilst little skirmish games might use another, whilst both use the same miniatures. Much like how 40K now has crusade style gameplay and things like Killteam that feed off the narrative at a small scale.

In reference to the good Capt Dob's points as well, am I right in thinking that we haven't yet seen ANY new ranges for the collective 'Free Cities' faction? Seems to me that it's a combination of old Empire, Dwarf, Wood Elf and other Elves altogether, yet all the AoS releases that I am aware of (apart from those you mentioned i.e. witch hunters) have all been for factions that are exclusively AoS related? Ergo no Free Cities additions whatsoever, human or otherwise?

As for whether we'll see any new Empire or Brets anytime soon I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

[Captain Dob Van Dwi]

Indeed. There have been no new Free Cities ranges for for anything really.

[Zak]

sorry, I dont have anything to add but if you know any rumors please post 

[GamesPoet]

 

Yep, haven't even recently heard something new on the Olde World returning.