Topic: Clipping as it relates to 6th, 7th, & 8th Edition WFB ...

[brr-icy]

how much gaming have you been getting in during the public health issue KTG

I got in a little. We played Epic Space Marine (v2) a couple of months ago, rather, two of my friends played against each other and I taught the rules. I have to be honest Epic was my first love and has really been the default game of mine for most of my gaming life, but not having played it in awhile, I was embarrassed that I had to keep looking up rules, and there aren't a lot! Some games have a ton of rules and I just don't think I can do those now. But I am not sure the game has aged well. I thought it was always amazing, but now feel some of the mechanics are a real drag.

Which worries me about even trying WFB. I was reading the 6th rulebook appendix and came across Clipping. I still struggle trying to determine how units line up to fight when coming from angles, and none of the diagrams really help. Some times I see units line up completely, others I see they are mostly lined up. Nothing is ever consistent in the examples as far as I am concerned.

I think the only way forward would be to play against a veteran warhammer player, but I don't know any.

So I have been sticking with what I know. I have the feeling that WFB is going to become a model hobby versus a gaming hobby.

In our group, we eliminated clipping. if you touch, you line up as many models as you can to fight. whichever quadrant you're in (flank,rear, front) is where you snap to. Clipping never made much sense to me as if one guy on the corner of the unit is fighting and the others are just looking in the sky whistling. It simplifies that rule and makes the game more fun imo

[Artobans Ghost]

Quote brr-icy:
In our group, we eliminated clipping. if you touch, you line up as many models as you can to fight. whichever quadrant you're in (flank,rear, front) is where you snap to. Clipping never made much sense to me as if one guy on the corner of the unit is fighting and the others are just looking in the sky whistling. It simplifies that rule and makes the game more fun imo

Great rule! I always hated that clipping rule.

[The Black Knight]

That's pretty much how the 8th Ed rulset did away with clipping.

[GamesPoet]

Without clipping there are no hair cuts!









Seriously, I recall the clipping rules being a pain the most when two folks had different ways of interpreting it.  Best just to line them up, after you go, go.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

That's pretty much how the 8th Ed rulset did away with clipping.

I am afraid not. In both the 6th and 7th edition, it was advised to resolve clipping by simply sliding the charging or victorious unit into more base contact with its enemy. In the 8th, that has been replaced by the free extra wheel when charging and combat reform (which can be executed by both sides). In 8th, if your charge ends up in clipping the enemy, despite the free wheel, you need to wait for the combat reform to bring more models into CC.

[The Black Knight]

That's pretty much how the 8th Ed rulset did away with clipping.

I am afraid not. In both the 6th and 7th edition, it was advised to resolve clipping by simply sliding the charging or victorious unit into more base contact with its enemy. In the 8th, that has been replaced by the free extra wheel when charging and combat reform (which can be executed by both sides). In 8th, if your charge ends up in clipping the enemy, despite the free wheel, you need to wait for the combat reform to bring more models into CC.

What I've meant is that the 8th Ed rules specify that you need to maximise frontage when charging and to bring as many models into base to base as possible. I may be fuzzy with 6th Ed but I don't think there were such rules in place back then?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

6th BRB p. 52: "When a unit charges an enemy the player must endeavour to bring as many models of the charging unit into combat as possible. [...] This is a very important rule, so be sure to get it right from the start!"

[The Black Knight]

I feel we are hijacking the thread a bit, but in this case the description only concerns the charger and not the charged. You need to bring as many of your models as you can to bear, but you don't care how many of the enemy models are becoming engaged. This leaves a window open for single models like chariots, monsters or single characters to go corner to corner of a big unit. This usually limits their attacks to an absolute minimum. I've seen this abused in tournaments with shooty lists with chariots. Hang back, shoot a bunch, charge chariots into corners of enemy units. Lots of fun (not really).

If I am not mistaken in 8th the rules specify that you have to bring in a maximal number of your models and the enemy ones too.

Not here to debate the superiority of one edition over the other, I just think the wording was a bit tighter in later editions.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

That is neither here nor there. Ruleswise, sliding was always illegal, but in 6th/7th edition, its application was advised (with mutual consent). In 8th, it is still illegal, except by combat reform.   

[KTG17]

I feel we are hijacking the thread a bit,

No worries. Have you seen my thread? I highjack it all the time.

but in this case the description only concerns the charger and not the charged. You need to bring as many of your models as you can to bear, but you don't care how many of the enemy models are becoming engaged. This leaves a window open for single models like chariots, monsters or single characters to go corner to corner of a big unit. This usually limits their attacks to an absolute minimum. I've seen this abused in tournaments with shooty lists with chariots. Hang back, shoot a bunch, charge chariots into corners of enemy units. Lots of fun (not really).

If I am not mistaken in 8th the rules specify that you have to bring in a maximal number of your models and the enemy ones too.

In our group, we eliminated clipping. if you touch, you line up as many models as you can to fight. whichever quadrant you're in (flank,rear, front) is where you snap to. Clipping never made much sense to me as if one guy on the corner of the unit is fighting and the others are just looking in the sky whistling. It simplifies that rule and makes the game more fun imo

Ok this is making more sense. So lets say I have a unit attacking the flank, can do a straight shot without having to wheel, but only the left front tip of the base of the first trooper touches. Do I swing around the rest of the unit free of charge? Even if I don't have any move left? And if I am lining up as many guys as possible, I assume this gives me some leeway on what units I want to use. For example, if I hoped to advance further I might position a unit so that most of the guys are positioned more towards my opponents other units. Or do the rules govern that too? I just see so many confusing ways to position the attacking unit if I have the flexibility to just line up as many as possible if I had a unit that was wider than my opponents. Like a 5-wide unit hitting a 2-rank unit from the side. What stops me from shifting the whole unit so long as the max number lines up?

I hope I make sense. I guess I can take some pics.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The slide proposed in Appendix 6 is a solution for the problem of clipping - it is not to gain an extra advantage. So, as soon as you have brought the maximum number of models into CC, the slide should stop - as demonstrated in the pictures 1a and 2a on p. 266. 

[KTG17]

Thanks for trying to clear this up Fidelis! Actually fig 1a was one I had a hard time understanding. Each opposing unit is 6 warriors wide, but they only line up 5. I know that each of the 6 would get the chance to strike but I don’t understand why they don’t just make them even. Why would they offset them?

[S.O.F]

This probably only my weird house rule but in clipping situations I always played it as a "Blunderous Charge". Smaller unit aligns with larger no charge bonuses for anyone.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Thanks for trying to clear this up Fidelis! Actually fig 1a was one I had a hard time understanding. Each opposing unit is 6 warriors wide, but they only line up 5. I know that each of the 6 would get the chance to strike but I don’t understand why they don’t just make them even. Why would they offset them?

Precisely because at that point all models are in CC, and there is no need to slide further sideways. The same is true for 2.a; it just happens to be that in this case, because of the different footprint,  no model will end up offset (Knights: 4 x 25 mm = 100 mm; enemy unit: 6 x 20 mm = 120 mm).

The Appendix also mentions allowing diagonal attacks or an extra wheel when charging as possible solutions, but sliding sideways seems the easiest option.

[KTG17]

Ok I see... so you slide the unit over until everyone who can fight is in a fight and then stop. The sliding over gradually was something I wasn’t imagining. This makes perfect sense now. Thanks Fidelis.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

We serve to please and please to serve.

[Padre]

It's rules like this that make us glad we so often have a GM for our 8th ed battles. We house rule 'clipping' and slide to maximise every time, purely because even in a fantasy world the idea of guys standing around, maybe 9 in a horde, with other giuys ranked behind, all doing nothing while one or two guys at the corner fight, seems (and looks) stupid. I would be embarassed to put a pic of such in a battle report. We always find a way of not having a combat fought in such a silly way.

It might not be the rules as written, but hey, when we have loads of fan-made army lists and house ruled units, in a campaign where although points and the like are accounted for in great accuracy, battles rarely involve 'equal' value forces, fudging some RAW rules to avoid such disappointingly unconvincing situations is the least of our crimes.

99% of the rules we stick to rigidly, as they work and don't seem too daft. But when a rule tries to force such daftness, we have our houserules.

I suppose it's stuff like this which could make playing with strangers uncomfortable! But even 8th ed is most usually played amongst old friends, I reckon!

[brr-icy]

Thanks for trying to clear this up Fidelis! Actually fig 1a was one I had a hard time understanding. Each opposing unit is 6 warriors wide, but they only line up 5. I know that each of the 6 would get the chance to strike but I don’t understand why they don’t just make them even. Why would they offset them?

Precisely because at that point all models are in CC, and there is no need to slide further sideways. The same is true for 2.a; it just happens to be that in this case, because of the different footprint,  no model will end up offset (Knights: 4 x 25 mm = 100 mm; enemy unit: 6 x 20 mm = 120 mm).

The Appendix also mentions allowing diagonal attacks or an extra wheel when charging as possible solutions, but sliding sideways seems the easiest option.

This is exactly what we do, just slide over and call it a day.