home

Recent Posts

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10
1
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers
« Last post by Skyros on October 13, 2024, 10:37:44 PM »
Quote from: commandant on October 13, 2024, 08:44:32 PM
I think that if you have to declare against more than one target it counts as disordered (at least against one of the targets).

Picture 2 has 5 cav contacting the detachment.   I'll look at wheeling to see if I can get 6 cav to contact the detachment but I'm not sure if that is possible.

It counts as disordered only if you can't align to all of the enemy units once contact has been made, and then it's a disordered charge only against the unit(s) that had to align against it.

Picture 2 has only one cav contacting the detachment.
2
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers
« Last post by Skyros on October 13, 2024, 10:35:42 PM »
Quote from: Edwin von Dufflecoat on October 13, 2024, 09:56:07 PM
Quote from: PowerSeries on October 13, 2024, 01:19:23 PM
I'm going to say declaring the Supporting Action: Supporting Charge  is not the same as declaring a Charge.  It is a separate block of rules.

I'd have to agree . I can't see anything to suggest that declaring a supporting charge has anything to do with declaring a charge. The two rules have different names and neither references the other.

Page 119 : "Charging is the only way for a unit to move itself into combat with the foe. If you want to engage an enemy in combat then you must charge them -- you cannot simply move into combat without first having declared a charge"

If declaring a supporting charge is not declaring a charge, the detachment cannot move into combat.

A supporting charge is still a charge. It has to be.
Declaring a supporting charge is a sub type of declaring a charge, with some special conditions.

As far as the 'out of range' thing goes, I believe a supporting charge is like counter charge and stand and shoot in that respect. It doesn't matter how far away the enemy is, only that it is not too close. Presumably if detachments did not have to be within 3" of their parent to even declare the supporting action, you'd also have to measure that they were within at least 10" of the charging target.


3
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers
« Last post by Edwin von Dufflecoat on October 13, 2024, 09:56:07 PM »
Quote from: PowerSeries on October 13, 2024, 01:19:23 PM
I'm going to say declaring the Supporting Action: Supporting Charge  is not the same as declaring a Charge.  It is a separate block of rules.

I'd have to agree . I can't see anything to suggest that declaring a supporting charge has anything to do with declaring a charge. The two rules have different names and neither references the other.
4
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers
« Last post by commandant on October 13, 2024, 08:44:32 PM »
I think that if you have to declare against more than one target it counts as disordered (at least against one of the targets).

Picture 2 has 5 cav contacting the detachment.   I'll look at wheeling to see if I can get 6 cav to contact the detachment but I'm not sure if that is possible.
5
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers
« Last post by Skyros on October 13, 2024, 07:18:38 PM »
Quote from: commandant on October 13, 2024, 05:52:41 PM
My point about the wheeling is this



In this condition the cav blue can't wheel to avoid the parent unit when they charge because that isn't the shortest line.   Therefore they will end up like this

Yes they can.

Criteria one : charging unit must endeavor to bring as many models as possible into base to base contact with the charged unit.

This has not happened in your second picture, which means it's an illegal charge as long as the cavalry can wheel to avoid that situation.

Which in your picture they can. Therefore, they MUST wheel to avoid contacting the parent unit.

If they cannot wheel to avoid contacting the parent unit, (which could happen if they were much closer to the parent or if they were significantly wider, etc) they must declare a charge against both the parent and the detachment. They cannot declare against just the detachment and then choose to just clip into the parent unit.

You seem to be changing the  meaning of the phrase 'shortest route possible' to mean 'shortest route that isn't possible'.

If a legitimate path exists to reach the charge target and only the charge target and with maximum base to base contact, the chargers MUST take it. If multiple such paths exist, they must take the shortest one.
They must take this shortest possible path to maximize base to base with the charge target , even if, for example, there is dangerous terrain in the way they'd rather avoid and they could avoid if they didn't have to maximize base to base contact.

The rules specifically say a charger is allowed a wheel during the charge to maximize base to base with the charge target. In fact, I believe it's a requirement.

And of course, we shouldn't forget criteria #4, which says that if possible, the charger must move to ensure that it is aligned to the target, if possible. (which it is, in your picture)

Note that you can basically do what you are trying to do (force the detachment and parent to be charged simultaneously) very easily by just putting the detachment and parent on the exact same line. If both are directly in front of the cavalry, and the cavalry is wider than the detachment, and the parent is on the same line as the detachment, the cavalry cannot execute unnecessary wheels if going straight ahead will lead to them maximizing against the detachment. In which case they would need to declare a charge against both the parent and the detachment.

so what you are trying to do still works, just the enemy wouldn't be disordered. There are other examples where the enemy would be disordered, if, for example, they were too close or too wide to wheel to avoid the parent.
6
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers
« Last post by Skyros on October 13, 2024, 07:02:01 PM »
Quote from: Sir Falo on October 13, 2024, 06:56:34 AM
Quote from: Skyros on October 13, 2024, 02:40:17 AM
It says "At the end of the Charge Moves sub-phase, a detachment that declared a Supporting Charge"

It's right there : the detachment has to have ALREADY declared the supporting charge BEFORE the end of the charge moves sub phase.

In the declare charges/charge reactions phase, both types of supporting actions from detachments must be declared. either a stand and shoot, or a charge.

After the declaration, we see what happens next.

The stand and shoot is executed immediately .
The charge move is executed later.
But the declaration of the charge, which is when you check for flanks etc, happens at the same time you would declare a stand and shoot.

I've tried to search the FAQ for 'detachment' to see if they happen to have anything to say about this, but sadly, they do not. Your interpretation would make detachments much better so I was hoping to find something like it in the FAQ.

Its quite obvious that they declare the charge at the end of the charge move face.

No, they definitely do not. It is quite clear that the declaration has to happen before the end of the charge move phase. I don't see how anyone can possibly disagree with this. It is also explained in the rules that it happens in the declare charges/charge reactions phase.

What do you think the phrase "At the end of the charge moves sub phase, a detachment that declared a supporting charge" even means? Declared is past tense. So when do you think it was declared, since it doesn't happen in the charge moves sub phase?

Quote from: Sir Falo on October 13, 2024, 06:56:34 AM
It is specified that it is a out of sequence event.

It says the charge move is an out of sequence event as long as they have already declared the charge.

 
Quote from: Sir Falo on October 13, 2024, 06:56:34 AM
It does not say that you declare the reaction in the reaction face

Yes it does, right on page 283. As soon as the opponent declares a charge, and the parent declares it is not fleeing, the detachment(s) declare their supporting actions.

I mean, don't get me wrong. How you are saying is definitely how it should work, and it's how it used to work in previous editions.
7
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers
« Last post by commandant on October 13, 2024, 05:52:41 PM »
My point about the wheeling is this



In this condition the cav blue can't wheel to avoid the parent unit when they charge because that isn't the shortest line.   Therefore they will end up like this



Which is a disordered charge. 

Even if you push the cav over so they are



they end up in a disordered charge

.

Even this position



Will result in a disordered charge for the cav.



It is difficult in this configuration for the detachment to be charged by anything that is wider than the detachment without clipping the parent unit and making it a disordered charge.
8
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers
« Last post by commandant on October 13, 2024, 05:27:46 PM »
When do detachments that are counter-charging check to see what arc they are in and what distance they must charge and whether or not they have line of sight is the primary question here.

Firstly I think that it is reasonable to assume that a rule such as counter-charge should be possible against all opponents.   Therefore this question can't be answered when the charging unit is more than 10 inches away from the detachment because in that condition the detachment would be unable to charge.

Reasonably then the detachment must be within 10 inches of all possible charging units when the check for distance and frontage is made.   Given that it is stated that the counter charge happens at the end of the charging move subphase it is equally reasonable to assume that the check for distance and frontage (and whether or not the charging unit is in the front arch of the detachment?) is made then.   This is also what is stated in the rules.

Certainly you need to declare you intention to make a counter charge move when your opponent declares his intention to charge you but you don't make the charge move until after the opponent has completed his charge move.   (interestingly I wonder if you can counter charge a unit which fails a charge.   I would think no.)

 
9
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers
« Last post by PowerSeries on October 13, 2024, 01:19:23 PM »
I'm going to say declaring the Supporting Action: Supporting Charge  is not the same as declaring a Charge.  It is a separate block of rules. 
10
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers
« Last post by Sir Falo on October 13, 2024, 06:56:34 AM »
Quote from: Skyros on October 13, 2024, 02:40:17 AM
It says "At the end of the Charge Moves sub-phase, a detachment that declared a Supporting Charge"

It's right there : the detachment has to have ALREADY declared the supporting charge BEFORE the end of the charge moves sub phase.

In the declare charges/charge reactions phase, both types of supporting actions from detachments must be declared. either a stand and shoot, or a charge.

After the declaration, we see what happens next.

The stand and shoot is executed immediately .
The charge move is executed later.
But the declaration of the charge, which is when you check for flanks etc, happens at the same time you would declare a stand and shoot.

I've tried to search the FAQ for 'detachment' to see if they happen to have anything to say about this, but sadly, they do not. Your interpretation would make detachments much better so I was hoping to find something like it in the FAQ.

Its quite obvious that they declare the charge at the end of the charge move face. It is specified that it is a out of sequence event. It does not say that you declare the reaction in the reaction face so it we are going with that interpretation you cant counter charge at all (you cant declare a charge in the enemy face normally and it never says that you can do that). If we go with you interpretation you cant counter charge enemies that start more than 10" from the detachments ether. Im not buying that.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10