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Offline wissenlander

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Dwarf Treaty
« on: May 04, 2007, 05:33:55 PM »
Mercenary agreement
Between
The dwarfs of Bugman’s Brewery
And The Men of the Warhammer-Empire

Term 1:
We agree that we as the aforementioned dwarfs will contract with the men of warhammer-empire. No other parties are bound by this accord be they dwarfen or manling.

Term 2:
We realize that there is currently a political rift between our peoples over the Nemesis Crown. We also realize that a large part of this is due to misinformation. As many dwarfen holds have links and friends within the empire, the true purpose of dwarfs in this conflict has been leaked to a few dwarf friends. By this contract, you the generals of warhammer-empire are choosing to take the role of these dwarf friends.

Term 3:
Your leadership in this fight will be divided between that of the dwarfs and the empire. As such we do not expect you to take any direct orders from us. Nonetheless you will be considered allies.

Term 4:
A. You dwarf friends agree that you will not directly attack any dwarfen force in this campaign unless first attacked by them. You will focus your efforts on maintaining order in the region and destroying any creature which is deemed evil. In particular this will include Orcs and Goblins. The dwarfs of Bugman’s Brewery promise to do the same.

B. Although you will be under the command of Karl Franz, you realize that the Nemesis Crown belongs with the dwarfs. You are free to search for the crown but you agree that once you find it you will not approach within 100 metres of it. Any clues obtained as to the whereabouts of the Nemesis Crown will be forwarded to the nearest dwarfen general.

C. We realize that as citizens of the Empire you are under the rule of Karl Franz. We also understand that he may give you direct orders which may contravene certain parts of this contract. In all of your efforts you will strive to maintain the dwarfen position in the Counsels of the Empire. You will strive to reconcile his orders and the tenets of this contract in a manner which is as favourable to the dwarfen viewpoint as possible. In particular you will adhere to the clause 4B without fail.

Term 5:
In this conflict you are our allies. We may have other allies at any given time and you will be expected to work alongside them. This is directly affected by clause 4C.

Term 6:
Although there are no monetary agreements attached to this contract, it is understood that we are allies and all will be expected to aid the other upon request and within reason.

Term 7:
All agreements will remain in force until:
-1 week after the confirmed destruction of the nemesis crown
-1 month after the unconfirmed destruction of the nemesis crown
-4 months after the reported or confirmed loss of the nemesis crown to enemy hands (to allow for efforts to retake the nemesis crown)
-a total of 6 months have transpired since the beginning of the contract

Term 8:
All stories told during the Nemesis Crown conflict (fluff submitted) will highlight our alliance so as to place our respective positions in this most favourable light.




Contract witnessed under the light of
Valaya, Grungni, and Grimnir
And
Sigmar

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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2007, 05:36:02 PM »
This is taken from Bugman's Brewery.  This is what they have offered us thus far.  It was lost in the middle of a bunch of posts.  That being said, I wanted to seperate this from the Foreign Ministry thread so it would not get lost in the middle.  That thread should be a general talk, if there are any specifics we should start a new thread.

They are intent on getting the crown back and for us to step aside once we have it.  It's a good contract over all, except that last bit contradicts what the Emperor wants.  There is a general feel that the Dwarfs do not really want to fight us, but will quickly if they are provoked or see reason to. 

I don't really care about the crown, it should be given back to the Dwarfs.  I just don't know how we will overcome this in fluff, since GW has said that Karl Franz wants it.  What does everyone else think?
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Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2007, 05:43:42 PM »
Not sure what my vote counts for, but it seems like a decent idea to me. I say give the moles there lousy crown, as long as the Empire doesn't get burned to the ground in this process

I always liked (fluff and game wise) the idea of Dwarves as our allies, and losing them over something that will just corrupt our awesome ruler seems like a horrible idea
Long time Wood Elf and Empire player with newly acquired High Elves

Offline wissenlander

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2007, 05:58:15 PM »
Your vote should count as much as anyone's Wyzer.  I think anyone who is taking part in this campaign and has signed his name to the recruitment roster has a say in the matter.
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Offline Ostermarker

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2007, 06:05:05 PM »
Really, this complaint is fluffy rather than anything, Boris Hertwig (my General) wold not sign this contract, where's Ulric eh?

Actually, instead of being an army created to find the crown (we could leave that to other people, off of this forum) and instead be an army created to defend the Empire and its borders.
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Offline Demonslayer

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2007, 06:18:27 PM »
I'll sign it.

I never wanted the crown in the first place. I wish to honour Sigmar's friendship with Kurgan Ironbeard, as the dwarfs should honour their ancestor's friendships. After all, this friendship is older than the crown itself.
I shall not attack any dwarfs. I'll keep clear of the crown.
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Offline cisse

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2007, 11:16:41 PM »
Good enough, I'd sign it. Except for a few things I'd write differently and such.

Most importantly, I'd like a clause which specifies we are still receiving our orders from our normal chain of command, except where it directly concerns te Crown - or perhaps even attacking Dwarf armies, which we can also not do. This would mean that if we get an order from our commanders/the Emperor that doesn't concern the Crown or harms the dwarfs, we still have to follow that order.

Also, they say we could have to work alongside ther allies of them, perhaps we should ask them to specify those - not really necessary, but would be usefull for fluff.

Lastly, the clause where we are forbidde to approach the Crown should have a sub-clause specifying what we should do if we encounter an evil army that has the Crown. I'm not really against the clause as it stands, but we have to take into account such an eventuality.

Fluff-wise, I'd say we can indeed be such a group of dwarf-friends, but I think we should try and write some background to enhance that. We're not just some random group, we could have influential members at the court in Altdorf etc. After all, our efforts will have to be concentrated, and we need some sort of leadership for that.


Perhaps we can send a contract of our own to the dwarfs? To answer to theirs, makes it more official and all.
cisse

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Offline Ostermarker

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2007, 12:12:15 PM »
I don't really want to register on Bugman's don't have time, but if anyone wants to quote my character (Boris Hertwig) and post it on the topic, go ahead:

"So the dwarfs seem to be against an alliance with men. Have they forgotten their old oaths and allegiances. I have fought alongside dwarfs and elves, and I saw more valour in dwarfs, but now it seems there is more honour in the elves, who were with us at the birth of the Empire? Dwarfs. Who have been alongside us since then? Dwarfs. Who now of the two of us are forgetting the old oaths? Dwarfs.

Many of the Dwarfs at Bugman's are saying: "Do not fight, you are weak from the Chaos Incursion." How would they respond to us saying: "Do not fight in your holds, for you are weak from constant sieges"? Yes, they would take offense! I will not fight dwarfs, but I will fight for my men, my country, my oaths and my faith. If the dwarfs endanger any of those, I will attack. But, I see no reason to look for a crown of dwarven make, if I wanted a rune item, I would go to the dwarfs, and ask respectfully.

This crown should not be allowed into the wrong hands. I have seen the corruption of good men. These, these are the wrong hands. If I find this crown, I will not take it, I will inform one of my messengers to go at full speed to a dwarven general, for his advice. At least, I would have, but it seems that dwarfs now have no pride or bother with the old oaths. In times now gone by, I would drink with any dwarf, because that is what he is, but now, you dishonour, us, your oaths, yourselves, and your ancestors."

If you do quote this, its basically how my character is reacting to the dwarfs' attitude to an alliance between man and dwarf.
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Offline Spectre

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2007, 02:41:29 PM »
I must say I agree with the general statement from the contract and I feel it's pretty well writen over all.  I know some of the following points have already been stated but I'll say them none the less.

The only problem I have with the present, as was brougt forth by Cisse, is what to we do if the Crown is about to be taken by Skavens or Chaos for example. And also I would have to say we should be careful fluff wise if we don't want to be well received by GW.

Finally getting a better idea of who those potential allies are would be a must not to get ourselves in to much trouble.

My last point is concerning the fluff from the campaign.  It states that Karl Franz wants the crown, I have no personal problems about the Dwarfs getting it, but shouldn’t we try to get it for the Emperor?  (On this I’m guessing the outcome will be decided by GW in lights of the results of all the battles)

Offline cisse

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2007, 03:36:16 PM »
My last point is concerning the fluff from the campaign.  It states that Karl Franz wants the crown, I have no personal problems about the Dwarfs getting it, but shouldn’t we try to get it for the Emperor?  (On this I’m guessing the outcome will be decided by GW in lights of the results of all the battles)
Hmm... That's the official fluff, yes. But I don't really care for the Crown, and if it causes us to stand alone in this war, I'll gladly promise it to the dwarfs. The three big factions seem to be Orcs, Dwarfs and the Empire, and if we're going to try and take the Crown ourselves I think we're not going to find any allies - most good races will ally with the dwarfs, others will fight on their own or side with the orcs.
cisse

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Offline Veldemere

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2007, 09:42:50 PM »
Post it Wiss, but I do not like the way Bugmans are going they are playing WAAC! I only hope it is their undoing.
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Offline cisse

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2007, 09:59:27 PM »
Post it Wiss, but I do not like the way Bugmans are going they are playing WAAC! I only hope it is their undoing.
We need to write a contract of our own I think, which the dwarves should sign.
cisse

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Offline MrAnderssen

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2007, 12:28:21 AM »
I don't like it.
I think that as a campaign we should not limit our opponents by making allies.

We are a great nation and can fend for ourselves. I am proud to be an empire player and I will not hide behind cowardice alliances. Our beloved Emporer Karl Franz has given us an order. And as our responsibility we must take it from him and not follow the rules of some midgets who think that they can make the rules just because they " will do the right thing and destroy it". How do we know that Thorgim will not take the crown for himself, after all he is a dwarf. And as it says in the booklet

" IF PROVEN SAFE, SUCH A POWERFUL ARTEFACT CAN BE HARNESSED FOR THE GOOD OF THE EMPIRE"

Why does everyone jump to the conclusion that Karl Franz can not be trusted with it. If it is proven it is not safe, as it isn't, then surely we as an empire can trust our emporer enough to destroy it.
Men of the Empire, be ashamed of youselves. For you have not trusted in you own leader but given in to the the wants of the greedy. Sign the treaty if you must, but remember this. You have freely opened up your lands to the dwarfs, you have let the famously greedy find a terribly dangerous artifact of great power. So when the day comes that The dwarfs turn their back on us and Thorgrim takes the crown for himself don't blame anyone but yourself.

I for one am standing by my emperor, I have faith in his wisdom and strength.

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Offline orcslicer

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2007, 12:26:42 PM »
Quote
Why does everyone jump to the conclusion that Karl Franz can not be trusted with it. If it is proven it is not safe, as it isn't, then surely we as an empire can trust our emporer enough to destroy it.

*Thinks of Lord of the Rings and what Isildur does with the ring when he was supposed to destroy it*

An interesting parallel I feel  :-)
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Offline Utsujin

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2007, 04:06:02 PM »
Well, if the Empire want to destroy the nemesis crown, that is what the Lizardmen want to do as well, why don't we be allies then?  The dwarfs want it back, but the Empire wants to destroy it, thus your goals are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum. 

Offline Spectre

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2007, 04:47:11 PM »
Quote
Well, if the Empire want to destroy the nemesis crown, that is what the Lizardmen want to do as well, why don't we be allies then?  The dwarfs want it back, but the Empire wants to destroy it, thus your goals are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum.

The problem is Karl Franz promised to destroy the Crown if it proved to be dangerous and to keep it if it could be used for good.  This position comes into conflict with the Dwarfs and with the Lizardmen.

Offline cisse

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2007, 05:04:29 PM »
Quote
Well, if the Empire want to destroy the nemesis crown, that is what the Lizardmen want to do as well, why don't we be allies then?  The dwarfs want it back, but the Empire wants to destroy it, thus your goals are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum.

The problem is Karl Franz promised to destroy the Crown if it proved to be dangerous and to keep it if it could be used for good.  This position comes into conflict with the Dwarfs and with the Lizardmen.

Not at all. Remember, the dwarves and to an extent elves are still highly regarded as advisors to the Emperor, and if the dwarfes give an explanation about the Crown, it's quite probable that KF decides to destroy it. Especially if this is backed by the elves.

While this *might* come into conflict with the dwarves, since they do not trust anyone to come even near it, it's perfectly compatible with the wishes of the LM and HE's.

@ Mr. Anderssen: I too have faith in the wisdom or our Emperor, but that doesn't mean we should distance ourselves from allies. Or old friends, like the dwarves, even though they might have wishes different from our own at this moment.
cisse

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Offline Spectre

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2007, 05:23:56 PM »
Thank you Cisse for pointing that out.  I should spends just a little more time reading that fluff again.

Of course the Empire's position is compatible in some way with both LM and Dwarves but I can't see us please both at the same time.  The HE might be a given for allies but I'll keep that train of tought for the Foreign Ministry.

Offline Stormbrow II

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2007, 05:37:36 PM »
Quote
*Thinks of Lord of the Rings and what Isildur does with the ring when he was supposed to destroy it*
An interesting parallel I feel  smiley
Indeed; but Elrond didn't wave a sharp sword in the tempted one's face now did he? :smile2:

Quote
Of course the Empire's position is compatible in some way with both LM and Dwarves but I can't see us please both at the same time.
Sadly no.  You could try to tempt some of the Lizzies onto your side as they'd likely side with us Asur too. Anything for them to gain a greater level of influence in determining the Crown's fate.  GW will have to listen to the Empire if they want to destroy it when they're backed up by more than one other faction.

Offline Utsujin

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2007, 06:22:28 PM »
Well, the Nemesis crown is really not suppose to be in existence, and we will destroy it no matter what.  I don't want to see having my cold blood breathren to fight the good younger races.  You see, if people would just listen to us, we might come out of our jungles for once and party once and a while....  :closed-eyes:

Offline Veldemere

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2007, 08:26:19 PM »
Whilst having total faith in our Emperor our Empire was founded on an alliance (with the Dwarfs) and defended on an alliance (with the high elves) no Man is an island and we stand or fall on our foreign policy, seperatism leads to destruction.
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Offline MrAnderssen

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2007, 05:32:43 AM »
As much as we have respected the alliance we cannot be blackmailed by it.  here is how I see itt.

crown found in empire
in hands of goblin
empire seek to find crown
use it for good if possible but if not safe then destroy it
BUT
dwarves stand in way
dwarves risk allince because because they dont want us to get it.
Either this is because
a) They dont trust us in destroying it
b) They dont want it destroyed
c) They dont want it to help the Empire

Empire goes ahead with finding the crown anyway


Mr. Anderssen

Offline Utsujin

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2007, 12:03:27 PM »
No, they want it destroyed, plain and simple.  I think they don't trust you tho with finding and destroying it.  After all, humans are the most succeptible to corruption.

Offline cisse

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2007, 12:34:02 PM »
No, they want it destroyed, plain and simple.  I think they don't trust you tho with finding and destroying it.  After all, humans are the most succeptible to corruption.
Meh, don't give me that - both elves and dwarves have dark kin, in effect showing they too can be corrupted.

And yes, the dwarves don't trust us with finding and destroying the NC. On the other hand, they trust no-one too. At asur.org, there's a heated discussion going on as to who should get to keep/destroy the Crown if they find it, the elves or dwarves

Afte much talking with the dwarves and seeing some of their contracts and alliances, I'm not that keen anymore to have us ally with them. Heck, they have made some very unfluffy deals... I'd rather have we ask them for a non-agresion pact, agree not to post any battles against each other, and be done with it.
cisse

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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Dwarf Treaty
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2007, 12:38:06 PM »
Yep, they have made some unfluffy alliances.  And their quickness to forget ours is madenning.  I'm not sure if this contract is even valid anymore to be honest, they were talking about rescending it before I left work on Friday.   I haven't had any contact with the Dwarfs since then, so I'm not sure, but they were leaning that way.

Oh, Cisse.  I'm on MSN right now if you want to chat.  sierragulf27@hotmail.com
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