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Author Topic: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise  (Read 5462 times)

Offline wissenlander

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Myself and Dendo got a little carried away in the Mission objective post.  But it's an issue that has come to light that needs to be adressed.  If he thinks this way, then I'm sure others do as well.

My stance is that we stick to the Council of the Wise philosophy throughout the campaign.  We minimize fighting with our old allies and when (and we will) find the crown and deem it unsafe (which we probably will) then we call everyone together, showing a hand of friendship in order to heal wounds.

We were unable to just hand the crown over to the Dwarfs, so I don't know why we'd do that with the Lizardmen at this point.

While the Bretonnian 'land grab' is something that we don't like, neither do they (the guys over at the Round Table).  We're working on fluff to make sure that we can both get what we want within the confines of the fluff GW has set up.

So, let me know what you think.  I thought this was what we were thinking of the whole time, but there may be a change in attitudes now.
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Offline clausewitz

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2007, 07:48:52 PM »
For the record I am in agreement with Wissenlander.

Council of the Wise if we get the crown.
Minimise antagonism with our usual allies.
Cooperation with the Brets (IMO use the "land grab" as a means to create further inter-relationships between the two sides).

I would imagine the the Empire and Lizards would have the same enemies but I can't really see much interaction between the two.  Distance, language, culture and diet (!) are all very different.
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Offline Dendo Star

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2007, 07:49:14 PM »
My argument can be found in both the top post sticky of "Mission Objectives" and in the below thread of "Greeting Softskins".

I'm sure Jerok will combine this thread and the "Greetings Softskins" one when he sees we accidently made a new one.  Heheh.

Wissenlander is a good arguer - he's smart and his points are excellent.  And he has put a lot work into his way of the Campaign, as have others.  I just believe we should go a different route.  

But, discussion is in order!  :happy:

I'm glad you're open to talk Wiss.  Not a single hard feeling - I'm just wired you have an opposite viewpoint and are good at expressing it.  Makes the ole' brain get fired up.  
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Offline Tostig

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2007, 07:49:33 PM »
Personally I care very little for the Holy Tiara. However at the same time I object to handing it over to the Lizardmen for free. Might I remind everyone that this has already caused the Dwarves to invade our realm and refuse to accept the Empire's sovereignty over her lands.

Imagine what we're fighting for divided into two groups. On the one hand you have objective things;- land, taxes, gold, trade, inheritance, lives etc. etc.. All those things that people used to fight wars over in the C18th. On the other we have subjective things;- honour, pride, home, safety, good etc. etc. etc.

From how I see it an alliance with the Bretonnians means we hardly lose out in terms of money or land. The current terms seem to show us to be allies and equal brothers in arms. Fair play. However just giving over the trinket to the Lizardmen seems so pointless. Not only could the other uses for it get the Empire better terms, but handing it over like this means that all those things we are going to fight for, just as the right to for Franz to rule his own Empire, are non-existent. We might as well have let the Dwarfs march in dressed for war, take the crown, set up a few Karaks and be off.

Secondly, unlike the Dwarfs who are approaching anything still warm with big grins (necrophilia jokes here please), I don't think we should just be approaching anyone out of the blue. If we did, why not Chaos? "Hey, you know how much you hate stunties, and how much the orcs annoyed you in the Storm of Chaos - why not help bolster our scores?". An alliance, especially one this strong, just isn't justifiable in terms of fluff.

In conclusion then, I'm pro-Brettonian, anti-Lizardman.

Offline Dendo Star

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2007, 07:52:10 PM »
Lizardmen Skinks actually do know the languages of all the races - at least the ones they helped create.  And Slann are telepathic and Saurus don't talk much at all.

And if nothing else, a shift towards the Lizardmen would be wildly interesting in terms of the gameplay and fluff we write.  Moreso than the Brets.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2007, 07:53:41 PM »
Aye, Dendo.  No hard feelings.  I don't mind a good discussion, and I have to remind myself that my thoughts aren't always that of others.  I need to check in every so often to make sure my thoughts line up with what the fellas here think.  I don't want to misrepresent W-E.
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Offline Dendo Star

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2007, 07:54:43 PM »
Like you could.

All we all care about is the safety of innocents.  That's what brings us together.
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Offline Ostermarker

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2007, 07:59:14 PM »
Ok, my opinions on the matter. We've told the Dwarfs that we're going to hold a Council of the Wise rather than give it straight to them, and could be considered as a major point in their denial to our requests for an alliance. I think we would look worse in their eyes (and antagonize them) if we turn around to the Lizardmen and say, hey, we'll give it to you.

There are two possibilities:
1. NC can be used to bolster the Empire. (Like that'll happen)
2. NC is evil.

If its 2. then their are more:
1. Use it anyway.
2. Give it to someone.
3. Hold a Council, and ask for people's advise.

1. Isn't really going to work, I doubt that GW would alter Empire fluff that radically. 2. That's really annoy the other races that we don't give it to. 3. Although we don't impress a particular a lot, we do allow others to give their view, and is diplomatic/political (whatever) to the nth degree, this could mend some diplomatic damage, that will occur due to this war.
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Offline Sircyn

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2007, 08:16:56 PM »
I dislike the idea of just handing over to the Lizards freebies. Perhaps we could negotiate land grants for our Lustrian colonies? Protectorates? Trade rights? Something for nothing makes us look rather weak and it seems rather disjointed with our policy towards the Dwarfs. If we get some astonishing degree of assistance from the Lizards then fine, consider a deal with just them and leave the other races out in the cold (seeing as they are doing this now to us, I say petty revenge is sweet). I just can't see the Empire handing over the crown to the Lizards if they haven't done much to help us, or aren't offering us anything in return. There are also the considerations of the reactions of our old allies, it hasn't been long since they came to our aid in the north. We don't want to sunder the brittle alliance we have that prevents evil destroying the civilized world.


Offline Dendo Star

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2007, 08:30:17 PM »
Will the other race communties consent to a Council Of The Wise?  Have they already?
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2007, 08:32:30 PM »
The Bretonnians will. 

And if we find it, why wouldn't everyone agree to one?  At this point no one will because it would negate their stance they have already made.  I can't see the High Elves getting too angry about it.  The others may have an issue, but if they see us openly inviting them then what can they say?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 08:40:44 PM by wissenlander »
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Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2007, 08:36:28 PM »
I dislike the idea of just handing over to the Lizards freebies. Perhaps we could negotiate land grants for our Lustrian colonies? Protectorates? Trade rights?
I was just going to say that... turd

Seriously this seems like the best policy to me. We are allies to the strictest terms possible. Basically no fighting in the major groups (ignore off-fighting in groups other than WE and their sites). Once campaign is finished we get together as a group and write some elaborate and fun fluff and we get some (more like trading colonies if anything) of the massive amounts of land over in lustria (I know there are a ton of fluff junkies drooling write now) and then hope GW doesn't just pass it off.

I talked it over with a fellow lizardman player and he actually started giggling at the prospect... lol

As to the council idea, eh why not? I still like the idea of the thing being sat on by a first generation Slann (are there any left?)

Would some mods write up an agreement of some sort and have a vote?
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Offline Sherminator1

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2007, 12:33:45 AM »

I dislike the idea of just handing over to the Lizards freebies. Perhaps we could negotiate land grants for our Lustrian colonies? Protectorates? Trade rights?

OK, I personally think this isn't a good call. First off GW won't go for it, and neither will the Lizzies. Maybe we should just trade it for some gold or priceless treasures. (Do the lizzies have those? I know their based on the mayans...)
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Offline Mike Chung

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2007, 12:54:27 AM »
Whoa whats this?

The Emperor wants the crown.  You guys better deliver.

Offline Dendo Star

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2007, 01:04:23 AM »
Whoa whats this?

The Emperor wants the crown.  You guys better deliver.

lol

Always the voice of cold, hard logic.
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Offline cisse

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2007, 01:13:39 AM »
I've always been an advocate of a Council, and I stick to my point (sorry Dendo! :wink:).

Just handing it over to the lizzies *might* make sens, but it doesn't really strike me as something the Empire would do (and something GW would come up with).
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Offline CaptScott

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2007, 09:20:40 AM »
As I mentioned in the 'I'm confused' topic, I am more inclined to lean towards a conclusion that will be the most interesting for WFB fluff and the Old World in general, rather than the 'lets all be friends' philosophy. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for alliances and good relations (and will support the decisions made by this site) but overall I would like the campaign to at least have some effect on the future of Old World.
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Offline Veldemere

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2007, 09:43:37 AM »
Sorry I had posted this in the mission statement topic by accident but for note:

This may just be a subtle difference but the crown is not magical (other than the raw warpstone) it is runic. Whilst this may not make any difference it could be of note and something a council of the wise should discuss. If we can't use it for good then who's to say any other race will not also be corrupted.

But I feel this is more of a discussion for the latter stages of the campaign.

Furthermore on the Council of the Wise, they have already proven they are at least tacitly interested in the crown (either to own, destroy or investigate) if we call them they will attend, it should be decided by intellect not might.

oh, and if that doesn't work we just turn evli and smite every other race off the face of the planet!
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Offline FVC

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2007, 10:34:12 AM »
oh, and if that doesn't work we just turn evli and smite every other race off the face of the planet!

Sir, I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Offline clausewitz

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2007, 03:18:34 PM »
oh, and if that doesn't work we just turn evli and smite every other race off the face of the planet!

Sir, I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

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Offline Rufas the Eccentric

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2007, 09:11:30 PM »
Whoa whats this?

The Emperor wants the crown.  You guys better deliver.

What are we going to do when Karl Franz grows an extra head?  The Lizzie's may trade quite a high price for it. 

With respect to the Bretonnians:  It does appear there are quite a few abandoned fortifications and villages on the Drakwald map.  If the Empire had the resources to re-settle these locations, we would have already done so..... So, how about allowing Bretonnian parties to occupy some of these locations in exchange for an oath of allegiance to the Emperor (they are living on our land), an agreement to fight the Greenskins, and Chaos Beasties in the vicinity of their settlements, and an agreement to honor our enlightened Labor Laws.  This does not harm us, as thesee locations are currently overrun by Chaos beasties, and it solves the Bretonnian King's dilemma in providing land for the younger knights.  From the young knights point of view, what better opportunity to have a fortification that is constantly being assailed.  He can prove his manhood again and again until he dies.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 01:57:10 PM by Rufas the Eccentric »
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Offline Dendo Star

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2007, 10:05:08 PM »
With respect to the Bretonnians:  It does appear there are quite a few abandoned fortifications and villages on the Drakwald map.  If the Empire had the resources to re-settle these locations, we would have already done so..... So, How about allowing Bretonnian parties to occupy some of these locations in exchange for an oath of allegiance to the Emperor (there are living on our land), an agreement to fight the Greenskins, and Chaos Beasties in the vicinity of their settlements, and an agreement to honor our enlightened Labor Laws.  This does not harm us, as thesee locations are currently overrun by Chaos beasties, and it solves the Bretonnian King's dilemma in providing land for the younger knights.  From the young knights point of view, what better opportunity to have a fortification that is constantly being assailed.  He can prove his manhood again and again until he dies.

Seconded!
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Offline FVC

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2007, 01:16:25 AM »
That certainly sounds fair. Can we agree on that, and finally solve that infuriating question of land?

Offline Dendo Star

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2007, 02:38:40 AM »
I agree fully to these conditions.  I apologize for my bluster earlier.

I am glad we have our alliance!  Sigmar and The Lady be praised!  Our light shall overcome the darkness!
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Offline Sproogle

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Re: Concerning Lizardmen, Bretonnians, and Council of the Wise
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2007, 03:22:46 AM »
I say we give it to the Slann, regardless of what our "allies" have to say about it.

Quote
Not only could the other uses for it get the Empire better terms, but handing it over like this means that all those things we are going to fight for, just as the right to for Franz to rule his own Empire, are non-existent.

I'm fighting to stop some upstart Champion of Chaos, or, worse yes, Grimgor, from getting the crown and laying waste to even more of our lands. I'm not about to get greedy and demand that we be given something in return for the radioactive hat.

Quote
I think we would look worse in their eyes (and antagonize them) if we turn around to the Lizardmen and say, hey, we'll give it to you.

I agree. At that point, we might as well go looking to the Vampire Counts for an alliance, and march straight into the Dwarfen lands. Oh, wait...

Quote
I dislike the idea of just handing over to the Lizards freebies. Perhaps we could negotiate land grants for our Lustrian colonies? Protectorates? Trade rights? Something for nothing makes us look rather weak and it seems rather disjointed with our policy towards the Dwarfs.

We're handing it over in order to save ourselves from the destruction it will bring to our lands if we decide to hold it. Any artefact that can wake a Slann because of it's evil is not one I would want to use as a bargaining chip, let alone use. And as far as the Dwarfs go, they are the ones in the wrong here, not us. If the Dwarf policy towards the Empire can change, then why not the Empire policy towards the Dwarfs?

I just don't see why we have to roll over for the Dwarfs by even listening to them at this point, or even the Brets. We need to be a little harder to those that have walked into our lands and made themselves comfortable.