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Author Topic: Envoy form beyond the Sea  (Read 18392 times)

Offline wissenlander

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2007, 03:57:09 PM »
I'd much rather take on all commers for that thing and if we get it, then we can talk instead of begging for scraps.

I think that's what we're doing.  There's a lot of negotiations going on, but we'll not give in easily.  If that were the case we would be apart of the GDA right now.  Initial talks were basically like this....

"Manling, step aside and give us our trinket or die."

"Can't we work together on this?  What's the big deal anyway, what's with this crown?"

"None o' your bidness, manling.  It's ours, give it back."

"Umm, we never took it.  I believe it was left in our lands a long time ago.  Can we help out?"

"Aye, get out of the way."

etc.....

They wanted us to follow suit, just like everyone else that's forming up in their alliance.  We wouldn't do it, and proposed the Council of the Wise.  That means we look for it and find out if it's safe or not with the help of everyone.  We've gone at this from a position of strength the whole time. 
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Offline Sterling Bloodprint

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2007, 04:11:44 PM »
No, the plan is that it is studied, and then after this we hold a Council of the Wise, at least that's what I think the plan is. We try and see if it is usable for good rather than hastily destroying it with no care for whether it can be used for good.
OOC:
Thanks. If anyone doesn't see it, THIS is why the dwarves do not trust you with the crown. "Study"? Great, so your most powerful mages study it. One decides to try it on as a test (and don't think he wouldn't... they play with magic constantly even though every time they touch the winds of chaos they risk a demon pulling them into hell for an eternity of torture). He gets corrupted. He convinces you that the crown is a powerful weapon that will drive chaos from your lands forever, and that the dwarves were hiding it and wanted it destroyed because they have fallen to chaos themselves. You unite against the dwarves, still bitter about their "invasion".

The powerful wizard becomes more powerful and influential. The dwarves have to retreat to their hold and close the *really big* doors.

The wizards then travels to the north, into the Chaos Wastes, and fights the powers of chaos... and eventually unites them for another storm of chaos, which you will fight without dwarven allies.

Their other option is to get the crown, break it, leave, then patch up relations by rebuilding roads, fighting goblins... whatever. You humanswill be really upset right up until you really need the dwarves again... chaos or goblins or tomb kings or maybe even Ogres will invade your lands, and the dwarves will come to your aid. It might take a human generation, but the forces of light will come thru it... and how long is a generation for the short-lived manlings anyway? "It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission".

Offline wissenlander

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2007, 04:15:40 PM »
Again, I'm not going to get into a discussion on who's right on this issue, Sterling.  But what you said about us needing the Dwarfs, goes for them too.  Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the only reason any of our races have survived for so long is because when it came down to it, we worked together for the greater good.
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Offline Tostig

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2007, 04:17:16 PM »
So, essentially what you are saying is that rather than guiding and helping the humans with it, the High Elves would rather break their alliances and help the Dwarfs wage war against them, despite the fact that the Dwarfs will (we assume) do the right thing anyway? Not only is it dishonest, it also doesn't make sense when you think about it - they're actually minimising the likelihood of a "good" outcome by refusing to give council to the Humans, the ones you claim need it, as well as the Dwarfs, who don't apparently.

Besides, what's to say that the Elves won't do the same thing? Or the Dwarfs? Or even the Lizardmen? Nothing. Besides, as I have mentioned plenty of times before, why isn't the College of Light strong enough to hold it? It's as strong at least as the Dwarfs, who were insane enough to make it in the first place, or the Elves whose malign faction raid the Empire's shores.

The Elves and the Dwarfs are both dieing races - their actions here are the perfect example of why.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 04:20:20 PM by Tostig »

Offline Sterling Bloodprint

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2007, 04:40:46 PM »
of course the dwarves need you. not just your might of arms and numbers, which they do need, but your thinking. Without someone to prod them along and cause a little rukus, the dwarves would go underground and stay there until the world outside is finally powerful enough to break in, and then they would die as a race. That's the only future I can see for them without you.

However, I don't know how you could convince them of that.

The empire would probably survive without the dwarves... *if* it manages to remain united. If someone inside the empire ends up with the crown, the most likely path of events is to have them tear themselves apart from within. The dwarves would do their best to stop that. The elder races nearly destroyed themselves by fighting amongst themselves. The dwarves and their allies will stop the empire from making the same mistake, as many older people do.

So, essentially what you are saying is that rather than guiding and helping the humans with it, the High Elves would rather break their alliances and help the Dwarfs wage war against them, despite the fact that the Dwarfs will (we assume) do the right thing anyway? Not only is it dishonest, it also doesn't make sense when you think about it - they're actually minimising the likelihood of a "good" outcome by refusing to give council to the Humans, the ones you claim need it, as well as the Dwarfs, who don't apparently.
Don't ask me, I was against the High Elven alliance. for basically that reason. The only people I feel the dwarves should trust were those who's motivation included "Know but Don't Care About the Crown" or "Don't Know".

Besides, what's to say that the Elves won't do the same thing? Or the Dwarfs? Or even the Lizardmen? Nothing. Besides, as I have mentioned plenty of times before, why isn't the College of Light strong enough to hold it? It's as strong at least as the Dwarfs, who were insane enough to make it in the first place, or the Elves whose malign faction raid the Empire's shores.
What council would you have them give?
"It's evil"? You will want to study it, and say that an inanimate object can't be good or evil, that it is only a tool. Look around, there are those of you already saying that.
"It's powerful"? You already know that. If we tell you more it will drive you harder to posess it... what a wonderful idea.
"It's theirs"? We said that already. You don't care.

Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2007, 05:17:58 PM »
*cough* spellcheck *cough*
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Offline Sterling Bloodprint

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2007, 05:59:34 PM »
*cough* spellcheck *cough*
because I missed a *c* in ruckus or the *s* in possess?

It's not unreadable... what more do you want?

Offline wissenlander

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2007, 06:00:28 PM »
It's ok Sterling, he's like that to everyone. :wink:
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finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline Giladis

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2007, 06:01:14 PM »
Your lack of respect for your superiors is stuning Keigh-mon!

We are willing to sacrefice the lives of our people to destroy the crown so that a greater evil might not come to posess it and this is how you repay us. Indeed you are like bickering children that need guidance.

We are willing to provide that guidance if you submit to our wisdom.



OOC: It seams many among you do not really undestand the menataliy of the Elves so I will try and do my best to explain it.

Elves consider themselves so superior to humans that most wouldn't even look upon one not to mention speak. You are viewed as tools for fulfilling greater schemes and to be used as a shield against chaos in the old world. To an elf there isn't much difference between you and the men of the north. Out of your 2525 years of history you spent 3/4 divided and fighting civil wars. Only in times of special individuals you acted as one for a common cause. That is very similar to the patterns seen in the north.

You also forget that apart from two expeditions conducted by Teclis almost all other historical refernece in the Empire when they talk about High Elfs is about battles against them. Great many elves see your nation as a passing thing and that once you are gone elven dominance will be reinserted over the areas they once controled.

High Elves are not the good guys of warhammer world they are Lawful Neutral. The do what they percieve as good for them rather than global good though on many occasions this coincides.

So in short you percieved High Elves as allies while they (except Teclis and Finubar) consider you little better than an Orc.

I hope I didn't insult anyone I just trying to be honest.



Now about the choices Asur.org made:

We chose Dwarfs over you because of sever things
1. They are an elder race just like us
2. Their oaths are more binding than those of men
3. GW said that Karl Franz want the crown and we don't consider that the crown even reaching your hands is acceptable
4. We once had an alliance with the Dwarfs and during that time we were at our peak, we wish that time renewed


Now the plans of the Asur.org that I hope will put your minds at east that we do not come to raid you villages and slay your people. Our primary goal is to find and destroy with any means necesary, preferably through co-operating with other elder races, the Nemesis Crown. Our secondary objective is something I hope you will find atractive.

We plan to take control with our allies of the stone circles that dot the region and use them to create a power grid that will prevent Undead and Daemons for being summoned in the region.

The South will raise again!

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Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2007, 06:01:57 PM »
It's ok Sterling, he's like that to everyone. :wink:
lol, I didn't even make it that far in the thread... lol

I was talking about the elf... so much for perfection  :-P
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Offline Ostermarker

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2007, 06:28:33 PM »
1. Ooh, so are you going to ally with Chaos Dwarfs or Dark Elves, eh?

2. The Dwarfs have just turned their backs on all the oaths with men and you think they're trustworthy?

3. Can't really argue with this, KF wants the crown to be studied, he's not some greedy so-and-so, though it might be more fun if it went slightly grittier in the terms of KF being corrupted.

4. I sincerely doubt the GW would do anything along those lines at all.

As that was OOC, I've decided to keep my arguments to it OOC.

If High Elves see themselves far above Humans, what of those in Marienburg? What of those in Altdorf?

If you're truly Lawful Neutral (talking in terms of DnD I assume?) then you aren't as different from the DE as you would like us to believe, they kill admittedly, but for self-preservation, it could be claimed. As a race High Elves are not LN, I think LG.

From my calculations from the Timeline in the Empire Army Book, for 62% of the time, we have been in peace, 38% of our time we have been in a civil war. Whilst, surely, the elves have been in a civil war since the sundering? How long would that be?

On Wikipedia, and from my knowledge, I have not heard of any historical battles between the Empire and High Elves. There's always going to be something against Wood Elves with burning of wood for light and heat etc.

So in short, the Elves we perceived as allies:
1. Don't care about the Empire.
2. Don't care about fluff.
So, Ostmarkers wear purple, but it's manly purple, not like that Bretonnian purple.

Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2007, 06:34:30 PM »
I would like to point out one more thing:

The dwarven/elven envoys have stated numerous times about how humans are not trustworthy yackity yakity yack... I don't know why this should need to be pointed out, but... "EVERYONE HERE IS HUMAN!"

I'm just saying, don't forget this is a largely internet-based fluff-war that is actually being ran by people (hmm, actually... some of you might not be... *looks at Rufas in the corner eating a leg*) So when the Elven enjoy says we cant be trusted because we are human... its hypocritical
Long time Wood Elf and Empire player with newly acquired High Elves

Offline Giladis

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2007, 06:37:29 PM »
There are at least two mentioned in the HE army book. Battle of the three towers and one north of Salzemund. Also there is at least another in 6th ed RB and Empire 6th ed army book speaks on how to engage High Elfs in war. That didn't came out of nothing.

Generaly speaking High Elves are not that much better that Dark Elves.
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Offline clausewitz

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2007, 07:22:26 PM »
Thank you for taking time to come and explain the HE postion Giladis.

I think it is clear that the perception of the HE that was held by many here doesn't match with the attitudes being represented by yourself.  I think most people had the HE as more of the Good Guy type image.

I am going to go and reread my HE army book and see if this paradigm shift sinks in.
I fought in the NC war.. and all I got was this lousy sig...

Offline Ostermarker

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2007, 07:45:32 PM »
Giladis, I've got the 6th ed HE Army Book, with the RB and the Empire book, can you give me page references?
So, Ostmarkers wear purple, but it's manly purple, not like that Bretonnian purple.

Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2007, 08:27:30 PM »
Giladis, thanks for keeping writing in character despite the well-earned animosity. But since you are doing so, you have to live with it...

Wissenlander is so much better at diplomatic talk, while I feel more at home with creative insults. So I'll keep it short (and in character - a bit):

2. Their oaths are more binding than those of men

4. We once had an alliance with the Dwarfs and during that time we were at our peak, we wish that time renewed


No 2.: Oh yes, we've witnessed that. Their oaths of friendship didn't keep them from invading the empire without even looking for a peaceful solution. You say those weren't oathes? Well, if dwarfs were so honourable, shouldn't their plain words be sufficient?

No 4.: I know a guy. Once he had this girlfriend, and he thinks it was the happiest time of his life. She cheated on him. She lied to him. She left him. Now she needs his help and comes back. And what does he do? Cowers at her feet like a dog, since he thinks it will bring back the old times.

Do you, Asur, by sheer coincidence know somebody like that as well?

Offline wissenlander

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2007, 08:33:23 PM »
I was going to try and translate that into 'nice talk' Gneisenau, but I don't think I could do it justice. :laugh:
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finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline Sterling Bloodprint

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2007, 08:37:56 PM »
No 2.: Oh yes, we've witnessed that. Their oaths of friendship didn't keep them from invading the empire without even looking for a peaceful solution. You say those weren't oathes? Well, if dwarfs were so honourable, shouldn't their plain words be sufficient?
Dis is da peaceful solution: Leave da bosses alone, let'em get dere stuff, and den dey leave.

Dwarfy generals is da most likely ta pay when da job's done. Never had a dwarf dat didn't follow da dark gods try ta sacrafice me or cheat me after da battle. Dey's followin' dere oaths uv friendship. Unfortunately, if a friend got 'imself a problem wif sumfin dat ain't no good fer im, sometimes a friend gots ta go in and take it away.

You's right ta be mad. We can only hope dat cooler 'eads will surface when it's all dun, and da dwarfses will be sorry and da humies will forgives dem and da dwarfses will frow a big feast and da emperor will declare a holiday... all we gots ta do is go get rid uv dat crown fast and wif very little damage.

Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2007, 08:47:34 PM »
No 2.: Oh yes, we've witnessed that. Their oaths of friendship didn't keep them from invading the empire without even looking for a peaceful solution. You say those weren't oathes? Well, if dwarfs were so honourable, shouldn't their plain words be sufficient?
This is the peaceful solution: Leave the bosses alone, let them get their stuff, and then they leave.

Dwarf generals are the most likely to pay when the job is done. I have never had a dwarf that followed the dark gods or try to sacrefice me or cheat me after the battle. They are following their oaths of friendship. Unfortunately, if a friend got himself in a problem with something that isn't any good for him, sometimes a friend has to go in and take it away.

You are right to be mad. We can only hope that cooler heads will surface when it's all done, and the dwarfs will be sorry and the humans will forgives them and the dwarfs will throw a big feast and the emperor will declare a holiday... all we have to do now is to get rid of that crown fast and with very little damage.
I think *zzzttt* tha- *zzztt* WARNING: SPELLCHECK OVERLOAD *zzttt* *zzzttt*

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Long time Wood Elf and Empire player with newly acquired High Elves

Offline Sterling Bloodprint

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2007, 08:55:42 PM »
I think *zzzttt* tha- *zzztt* WARNING: SPELLCHECK OVERLOAD *zzttt* *zzzttt*

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I do that when "in character" as an Ogre. I don't think it was quite bad enough for a translator or a snide remark.

Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2007, 08:57:59 PM »
I think *zzzttt* tha- *zzztt* WARNING: SPELLCHECK OVERLOAD *zzttt* *zzzttt*

---------------------
I do that when "in character" as an Ogre. I don't think it was quite bad enough for a translator or a snide remark.
O, Im sorry if you took offense to it... I was just being funny (noone could possibly make that many typos... or at least I hope not...)

It took my like 15 minutes to fix all the sentences, lol

You would make a great ogre! Er... I mean, a bad ogre.. or crap... uh...
Long time Wood Elf and Empire player with newly acquired High Elves

Offline Dendo Star

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2007, 11:03:40 PM »
It's okay Sterling, no one around 'ere will ever really be a snide bastard to you.  Most folks here like to do a good ribbing though.  If anything, take it as a compliment, 'cause it shows we've been paying attention to what you say.  Heheh.

1. Ooh, so are you going to ally with Chaos Dwarfs or Dark Elves, eh?

2. The Dwarfs have just turned their backs on all the oaths with men and you think they're trustworthy?

3. Can't really argue with this, KF wants the crown to be studied, he's not some greedy so-and-so, though it might be more fun if it went slightly grittier in the terms of KF being corrupted.

4. I sincerely doubt the GW would do anything along those lines at all.

As that was OOC, I've decided to keep my arguments to it OOC.

If High Elves see themselves far above Humans, what of those in Marienburg? What of those in Altdorf?

If you're truly Lawful Neutral (talking in terms of DnD I assume?) then you aren't as different from the DE as you would like us to believe, they kill admittedly, but for self-preservation, it could be claimed. As a race High Elves are not LN, I think LG.

From my calculations from the Timeline in the Empire Army Book, for 62% of the time, we have been in peace, 38% of our time we have been in a civil war. Whilst, surely, the elves have been in a civil war since the sundering? How long would that be?

On Wikipedia, and from my knowledge, I have not heard of any historical battles between the Empire and High Elves. There's always going to be something against Wood Elves with burning of wood for light and heat etc.

So in short, the Elves we perceived as allies:
1. Don't care about the Empire.
2. Don't care about fluff.

Owned.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 12:13:30 PM by Dendo Star »
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Offline FVC

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2007, 12:39:27 AM »
Dis is da peaceful solution: Leave da bosses alone, let'em get dere stuff, and den dey leave.

That has never been an acceptable solution. It may well occur as you say, the dwarfs obtain the Crown, take it somewhere safe, leave the Empire, and no one has been physically hurt - but harm has still been done.

If the Empire were to submit to that, it would set a very dangerous precedent. It would mean that it is perfectly acceptable for dwarfs (or any other 'elder' race) to march into Imperial territory, dig up whatever they like, and leave with it, all without ever notifying the appropriate Imperial authorities, explaining what they're doing, or asking for permission. Yeah, father knows best. I don't think so.

Two hypotheticals spring to mind. Firstly, what if a Chaos Dwarf army dressed itself up as dwarfs and decided to march into the Empire and make some excavations. They would be allowed to do that, for the Empire apparently doesn't have the right to wonder what you're doing on its land.

Secondly, what if some Night Goblin broke into the Pyramid of Light, stole one of the Books of Nagash, and fled into the tunnels of a dwarf hold? The Empire goes on to raise an army to track down this goblin, recover the book, and keep it safe once more. The dwarfs demand to know what Imperial soldiers are doing in their territory, and they respond with 'don't get in our way, let us get our thing, and we'll leave soon after'. Do the dwarfs submit to that? Of course they don't. How, then, can they expect us to?

Doing that would create one standard for the 'elder races' and one for the 'younger'. Considering that the title of 'elder race' is self-appointed, it begins to look very dodgy very quickly. No - I think they should all have to abide by the same standard, and that means that, if they want the Crown, the dwarfs need to ask the rulers of the Empire if they would be allowed to conduct a search.

Quote from: Ostermarker
If you're truly Lawful Neutral (talking in terms of DnD I assume?) then you aren't as different from the DE as you would like us to believe, they kill admittedly, but for self-preservation, it could be claimed. As a race High Elves are not LN, I think LG.

I'd tend to call the lizardmen the really stodgy LN types (what with their fanatical adherence to an obsolete plan and all), but it does describe the High Elves fairly well too. The difference is that the lizardmen seem to know they're LN, and consciously think of themselves as fighting on behalf of order; not on behalf of good. The High Elves are LN people who think they're LG, which is different. Stereotyping a race would be bad, and many High Elves would be different, but in terms of the way the society is structured, LN sounds like a fair judgement. Others like, oh, my favourite elf ever Teclis, would be more like NG - and of course, there are evil elves in Ulthuan, just as I'm sure there are good aligned elves among the Druchii. Their social structures, though, encourage a certain type of behaviour. In terms of that sort of structure, the Empire seems to me NN, with Bretonnia in the LN (though they like to think LG) camp as well.

Offline Sterling Bloodprint

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2007, 12:56:03 AM »
That has never been an acceptable solution. It may well occur as you say, the dwarfs obtain the Crown, take it somewhere safe, leave the Empire, and no one has been physically hurt
man... i hope not. this is WARhammer, after all, not diplomacy-hammer. what I am really saying is that, for the good of the "forces of light", it would be best for the dwarves to win (out of dwarves, empire or orcs, the only 3 races with a legit chance).

I'm not of the belief that a empire win would corrupt K-F... they aren't going to so dramatically change the book so soon after it's release. I believe that if the Empire wins, Chaos will get a new hero in the form of a corrupted Empire Wizard.

Offline FVC

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Re: Envoy form beyond the Sea
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2007, 01:23:32 AM »
what I am really saying is that, for the good of the "forces of light", it would be best for the dwarves to win (out of dwarves, empire or orcs, the only 3 races with a legit chance).

Perhaps the best in an immediate sense, where you define 'best' as 'nobody uses the Crown'. In the long term, though, I would be less confident. For me, standing on the Empire's side is a matter of principle. You do not violate someone else's territory, and you certainly do not claim that you have the right to because you're an 'elder race' and they're not.

Quote
I'm not of the belief that a empire win would corrupt K-F... they aren't going to so dramatically change the book so soon after it's release. I believe that if the Empire wins, Chaos will get a new hero in the form of a corrupted Empire Wizard.

Probably, but it also makes sense that they would give the Empire some reward for winning.

Or they could the whole way and have Karl Franz turn evil, run into the Chaos Wastes, have a succession crisis, and it's time for the Age of Three Emperors Two: Ulric's Revenge, wherein Karl Franz's heir tries to declare himself Emperor, but fails to get the electors' support due to his father's obvious mistakes, Todbringer steps up to the plate and has Ar-Ulric crown him Emperor, and Emmanuelle von Liebewitz decides to fill in as Averland's elector 'in the interests of peace' and, with Stirland's support, declares herself Empress. And the Empire is in chaos once again, thus justifying all sorts of wild campaigns and battles in the future.