Topic: Rumors and what's new to be expected for The Old World ...

[b0007452]

Big new multi-part kit for Tomb Kings revealed, including a huge skeleton dragon, which looks a rip off of a Vamps Zombie Dragon. Not sure it was necessary personally with the other mounts they have available, which feel a bit more thematic.

Anyhow, here’s the link:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/18/world-championships-preview-awaken-an-ancient-terror-from-beneath-the-sands/

Not a huge fan of the model myself, but that’s just personal taste. The accompanying video again contains lots of the old plastic kits that I’m gonna assume come out at release as well.

[commandant]

I'm liking what we see from the combat phase

[Gankom]

A new look at special rules.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/11/old-world-almanack-living-saints-and-special-rules/

he Grail Knights are the epitome of the Bretonnian ideal of chivalry, warriors of immeasurable prowess and exemplars of courage, virtue, and noblesse oblige. Arguably the most devastating heavy cavalry plying their trade in the Old World, these are literally the last living saints your average devotee of the Dark Gods wants to meet out on the battlefield.

This is a Universal Special Rule (USR), just one of about 75 in the game. This seems like a lot at first glance, but this new system simply collates a lot of special rules that once lived in several places – things like Psychology, unit coherence, or Monster rules.

Close Order is a good example. In the past, you just had to know that units that weren’t skirmishers or fast cavalry operated in ranks and files – what we now know as close order. Now every unit has all its formations listed as a USR, calling this out and clarifying. Likewise, Stomp attacks were once listed under the Monster rules, but now as a USR it’s possible to be more deliberate with which monsters have the rule, and which don’t. And it’s also easier to remember you’ve got a Stomp in the first place!

Beyond USRs, there are also rules that only govern units from a single army, which are collected in the relevant army lists, and even a couple of rules that are unique to a particular unit. These are listed on individual profiles. With that in mind, let’s find out exactly what our Grail Knights are capable of.

Special Rules for the Lady
The Blessings of the Lady is an army-wide rule for the Kingdom of Bretonnia. Instead of rolling to see who goes first, a Bretonnian army may instead kneel to pray for the protection of the Lady of the Lake. This grants a 6+ Ward Save (invulnerable save) against any wounds suffered, or 5+ against wounds of Strength 5 or higher. Of course, this blessing can be lost by besmirching one’s own honour – either when a unit flees, or a character declines a challenge.

Close Order we have covered already. Counter Charge is effective against Monsters, Cavalry, and Chariots – if our Grail Knights are charged by units such as these from a longer distance than their attacker’s Movement characteristic, they can spur their horses D3+1” in response – both parties count as charging, and Initiative then comes into play.

Finest Warhorses is another Bretonnian-only rule – such is the quality of these noble steeds, you may reroll any 1s when you Charge, Flee, or Pursue before discarding any dice. If their First Charge of the game makes contact, the target unit loses its rank bonus until the next round of combat. Lance Formation allows Bretonnian Knights to form their signature devastating charge formation – offering them a choice between this and Close Order.

Living Saints is a great example of a unique special rule – these Grail Knights are such mighty warriors, that they can individually issue Challenges to enemy characters. Goblin Bosses watch out! Swiftstride adds a further 3” to your maximum charge range, and +D6” to any given charge, flight, or pursuit.

Finally, the Grail Vow provides further benefits: they are unaffected by Fear and Terror, they fight with Magical Attacks, and the first time they fail a Break test, they may automatically Fall Back in Good Order.

On top of that, you can load up on even more abilities with Magic Items and a Knightly Virtue for the Grail Guardian who leads them, or a Magic Banner. Grant him the Virtue of the Impetuous Knight to extend your charge range – at the risk of Impetuously charging towards the foe, the Dragon Slaying Sword to make him a Monster Slayer, or the Blazing Banner to add Flaming Attacks.

Universal Special Rules provide the variety, character, and granularity you need for a realm as violent and varied as the World of Legend. Elite units such as Grail Knights generally have the most USRs, but even the lowlier likes of Bretonnian Squires have a few tricks up their sleeves: Move Through Cover, Open Order, Peasantry, Skirmishers, and Vanguard – but to find out what these do, you’ll have to complete your Questing Vow of buying the Warhammer: The Old World rulebook when it goes on pre-order some time in the new year…

[commandant]

Seems decent and having all the special rules in one place is a good idea. Thay haven't rebased their models to be the right size though

[Zygmund]

I think a paragraph or two are missing above. One thing there caught my eye:

With heavy armour, shields, and barded Bretonnian Warhorses, they have a save of 3+ [...]

So that would be 5+ for heavy armour, 4+ with shields, and 3+ with barding. So no armour save from being horseback? Something I suggested maybe a decade ago, so I guess I must like this ruling. Makes cavalry a little bit more vulnerable.

Also noted the lower cost of champions and standard bearers. Or were all members of the command group equally costed in the 8th ed? Can't remember. It will be interesting to see what exact rules the command group has. E.g. have we heard what the Musician does? IIRC, his rules were not mentioned in the combat resolution overview.

Looking further back the reveals, I think the Magic system is still very much up in the air. There was talk of casting individual spells, but little bit else. I can't get the sense and feel of it, based on the reveals. Like how many spells do the mages have, do they get to choose them or are they random, how many can they cast per turn, how many individual lores there are and what is available for each faction, etc.?

-Z

[Dazgrim]

Looking further back the reveals, I think the Magic system is still very much up in the air. There was talk of casting individual spells, but little bit else. I can't get the sense and feel of it, based on the reveals. Like how many spells do the mages have, do they get to choose them or are they random, how many can they cast per turn, how many individual lores there are and what is available for each faction, etc.?

-Z

On magic, I think we can infer the following:

• Wizards will get spells equal to their magic level.
• Spells will be generated using d6 and rolling on a table, with the option to swap one spell for the signature spell of your lore.
• 8 lores in the core book, plus army specific lores. We have seen Tb Kings have their own lore. It is probable that Wood Elves will also get one, ditto Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch. 
• Less certainly, wizards will be able to cast at least one spell per phase.
• Level 1 and 3 wizards will never see play, because the casting/dispel system incentivises high level wizards.

[commandant]

To be fair level 3 wizards never saw play anyway and nor did level one wizards except as a scroll caddy

[Gankom]

Finally a reveal on army comp.

Building Your Army
As they have always been in real life, armies in Warhammer: The Old World are selected according to a system of ‘points’. Games do not have recommended points values – as long as you’ve got a General and three Units, you have an army. However, 2,000 points per side will make for a substantial two-to-three-hour game – perhaps involving 100 or more models each.

Every faction* will have a Grand Army upon release – a balanced list of options from which you can pick a wide variety of units chosen from four categories shown above. There’s usually one page of stipulations, but the full range of units from each faction is available for selection. Take, for example, the Grand Army of Bretonnia:

There’s a lot here to unpack. Firstly, you can’t overload your army with powerful wizards and mighty heroes – Prophetesses and Barons are a rare occurrence, even in the armies of the king. There is, however, the flexibility to take characters of lower ranks: Paladins, Damsels, and Sergeants at Arms enjoy no such limits – and you’ll certainly want at least one Paladin for that free Battle Standard Bearer upgrade.

Otherwise, as long as 25% of your roster (500 points in a 2,000-point game) is spent on units listed as Core, and includes one unit of Knights of the Realm and another of peasant levies, army selection is very flexible. As you’d expect, Grail Knights and Field Trebuchets aren’t such a common sight, but at 38 points per model, +7 per champion, musician, and standard, you can just about cram two units of six Grail Knights into a 2,000-point army – perfect for any Duke who prefers to keep every single one of his eggs right there in one decorative basket.

Talking of Dukes, we should probably take a look at their rules:

Grognards may remember multiple ranks of heroes from previous editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battle, and those delineations are still present and correct. A Duke is a mighty warrior indeed – no time for feasting, issuing edicts, or sprawling decorously across your throne for these guys: every Bretonnian General is tremendously skilled at arms and as strong as a Troll.

Options abound. You’ll note a choice of weaponry – these are taken from a larger menu of arms in the main rulebook. A morning star adds +1 Strength and -1AP in the first round of combat, and a great weapon doubles those bonuses but makes you Strike Last. A lance adds similar bonuses, though only on the charge, while a shield improves your armour save by +1.

We’ll gloss over those Knightly Virtues for now – suffice it to say there are two pages of ‘em, and they’re great. But wouldn’t you like to know about the mounts? Well, guess who’s back…

Yes, your Duke or one very fancy Baron is entitled to ride a Hippogryph captured as a chick and trained from birth as one of the fiercest mounts in the Old World. They’re fast, strong, and lethal in combat, and they fight independently of their rider but combine profiles, making a single model that’s much tougher and can dole out a lot of attacks

At the other end of the martial scale are the Men-At-Arms. What they lack in combat prowess, they also lack in bravery, equipment, and chivalric acumen. On the other hand, they’re very cheap.

The Grail Monk functions as a kind of second champion, whose Blessed Triptych will inevitably prove very useful – it grants the whole unit Stubborn, so the first time they are required to take a Break Test they don’t need to risk a dice roll. Instead, they Fall Back in Good Order. Combined with Shieldwall (which allows them to Give Ground instead of Falling Back) they’re capable of stealing the impetus from even the heaviest cavalry.

Armies of Infamy

The Grand Army is not the only way to select a force, however. Each faction will gradually gain access to Armies of Infamy, which provide often wildly different ways to muster a force. As a Bretonnian Lord, you might wish to enter exile – especially as it means you can then take forbidden Border Princes Bombards into battle, while those who really just enjoy Knights and more Knights may prefer an Errantry Crusade.

There’s no Old World Almanack next Monday – it’s Christmas Day after all, but check in on the 26th for something of an off-white Christmas…

[Gankom]

This has also been floating around for a few days now, and seems pretty much confirmed to be a leak of the coming Tomb King army box.

[commandant]

I'm reasonably liking a lot of it. The combination of slots and percentages seems to work well. Lots of heros will be possible, which could play into the new magic system.

[S.O.F]

Sigh, same damn TK core sculpts....

[commandant]

You not a fan of the sculpts. I don't play TK but they look decent ranked up.

[Gankom]

Two main thoughts on the Tomb King box.

1) Wow, that is a lot of core. Like, a mountain of it. Really surprised to see nothing that special there. I would have put in some kind of neat, sexy unit to really get people hooked. Tomb King have a ton of really neat units, and all it is, is a bunch of bones.

2) Except for the two new hero/lord (Both of which come in the same box), its all old sculpts. I think this is how most of the game is going to go. 90% old units, a small handful of new stuff. And mostly heroes.

I'm thinking the Bret box is going to be similar. I've seen rumours that its likely 32 peasant bowmen, 32 peasant archers, maybe 12 knights of the realm, the new Paladin model and maybe 10 of the new foot knights.

[KTG17]

I am surprised by the box for a couple of reasons. One its a huge box and is going to come with a steep price tag, which to me feels like an entry barrier for new players. Second, you only need a couple of core units to field the army (assuming the Tomb Kings qualifications are similar to the Bretonnian) yet all these extras are included in the set. I think it would have been better for GW to release smaller army starters and then let players decide what next to buy. Maybe there is a steep initial cost GW wants to get over and they is why they are pushing so much product at once, I don't know. The army does look great, I can see some being excited to get so much at once, but I just wouldnt be surprised it comes with a steep price tag and that might hurt the TK release.

It doesnt bother me that these are old models as I think the models look great anyway. Maybe not to the degree we are seeing from Sigmar now, but old Fantasy has a charm about it and I think players do miss that look, so why bother re-making basic regiments if you don't have to.

[SaintofM]

I am surprised by the box for a couple of reasons. One its a huge box and is going to come with a steep price tag, which to me feels like an entry barrier for new players. Second, you only need a couple of core units to field the army (assuming the Tomb Kings qualifications are similar to the Bretonnian) yet all these extras are included in the set. I think it would have been better for GW to release smaller army starters and then let players decide what next to buy. Maybe there is a steep initial cost GW wants to get over and they is why they are pushing so much product at once, I don't know. The army does look great, I can see some being excited to get so much at once, but I just wouldnt be surprised it comes with a steep price tag and that might hurt the TK release.

It doesnt bother me that these are old models as I think the models look great anyway. Maybe not to the degree we are seeing from Sigmar now, but old Fantasy has a charm about it and I think players do miss that look, so why bother re-making basic regiments if you don't have to.

A number of older starter boxess were fairly large. Unlike say 40K or Age of Sigmar where you can have units of 5 or 10 and consider that large, most units will need a unit strength of 20.  I also suspect that like a starter box, it will be cheaper than say collecting units individually.

Two main thoughts on the Tomb King box.

1) Wow, that is a lot of core. Like, a mountain of it. Really surprised to see nothing that special there. I would have put in some kind of neat, sexy unit to really get people hooked. Tomb King have a ton of really neat units, and all it is, is a bunch of bones.

2) Except for the two new hero/lord (Both of which come in the same box), its all old sculpts. I think this is how most of the game is going to go. 90% old units, a small handful of new stuff. And mostly heroes.

I'm thinking the Bret box is going to be similar. I've seen rumours that its likely 32 peasant bowmen, 32 peasant archers, maybe 12 knights of the realm, the new Paladin model and maybe 10 of the new foot knights.

Our luck, that will be the case with most of the armies. I know with Cities of Sigmar alone, a bunch of units have disappeared like it was in Stallin ruled USSR and I suspect they are going strait into this. Pitty as some units need new sculps. In Tomb Kings, I don't remember is the Ustabi had a physical model armed with bows but they had that option in 8th eddition (same with Bone Giant). It would be interesting to have those options available in the new edition.

I also have to wonder how much of this is spoiler free. We have seen several new looks to units, and a return of an older unit for Brettonia. However, I wonder what is left to show off. Will they include units from the games, or will they give models to units they had mentioned in previous edditiosn there was no physical mini for?

Every faction* will have a Grand Army upon release – a balanced list of options from which you can pick a wide variety of units chosen from four categories shown above. There’s usually one page of stipulations, but the full range of units from each faction is available for selection. Take, for example, the Grand Army of Bretonnia:

I have to wonder what grand army is; is this just the name of the starter box or something to start of what an older definition of Grand army (Helms Deep baby!).

I also like this as it is a mix of older editions. They seem to be looking at what made them work and combined them. Also the fact that you can have a few minis and have a game regardless of points is good for new players. Points will most likely come into play when dealing with guys that poured too much into the hobby like me and have an army big enough to handle a Chaos Invasion/be the Chaos Invasion.

[Gankom]

This is interesting. The first book set in the Old World since Fantasy died is coming. Couple of bits that look interesting for us...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/20/lords-of-the-lance-is-the-first-new-novel-for-the-world-of-legend/

Warhammer: The Old World is nearly here, bringing back the Bretonnians, Tomb Kings, and many more factions from the Warhammer Fantasy Battles setting. This isn’t the End Times, though – the von Carstein dynasty is currently as dead as can be, the Colleges of Magic have not yet been established, and the Skaven menace has vanished into myth… but the World of Legend is no less dangerous, and the first you’ll get to read about it is in Graham McNeill’s Lords of the Lance.

Confirmed no College, shout out to no vamps.

[commandant]

Surely there are other vampires other than the von Carsteins. The van Bloodsuckers for example.

[SaintofM]

Surely there are other vampires other than the von Carsteins. The van Bloodsuckers for example.

THe main ones were srigori (very monsterous looking, like Nasfaruatu took all the protine shakes that day), Lamia (sexy seductress vampires), Von Carstine (Charming Dracula types), Blood Dragons (martial knights looking for a Dragon) and Nhkar (Orlock looking magic users). They were a thing in older editions but the focus near the ned was on the Von Carstine bloodline. A return and maybe some units based on them might be fun.


On other thoughts popping into my skull at the moment, if Brettonia is a sampling of whats to come, how  do you think this will be for other army units like the Empire?

[KTG17]

There's going to be a ton of hardback rulebooks on Ebay.

[Gankom]

HUGE reveal today guys. Get hyped, its almost upon us.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/26/warhammer-the-old-world-the-tomb-kings-of-khemri-revealed/

Fun fact: Boxing Day gets its name from an ancient necromantic practice, in which the skeletons of the dead were removed from their coffins ready for reanimation*. Which is appropriate, because here at Warhammer we have more than a few skeletons ready to take out of our closet.

It’s the Tomb Kings of Khemri (and a bunch of guys in some metal trousers)!

There is no single launch box for Warhammer: The Old World. Instead, there are two separate – and massive – core army boxes, each containing a full 1,250-point army with dozens of all-plastic miniatures each. On top of that, you get a complete 352-page hardback Warhammer: The Old World rulebook, a four-page reference sheet, 20 D6 dice, one six-sided scatter dice, three weapon templates, two classic red plastic measuring sticks, and transfer sheets.

The Liche Priests have exhumed a horde of 93 Tomb Kings miniatures, including the magnificent new Liche Priest on Necrolith Bone Dragon (which can additionally build a Tomb King on foot, or be built instead as a Tomb King on Bone Dragon). The rest is made up of enough classic kits to create an army fit for Settra himself – 40 Skeleton Warriors, 32 Skeleton archers, 16 Skeleton Horsemen, and three Skeleton Chariots.

Raise your banners to the Lady with the Kingdom of Bretonnia box, which contains 76 miniatures. The resplendent new Lord on Royal Pegasus can be built as a Duke or a Baron. They’re backed up by a lance formation of 12 Bretonnian Knights of the Realm, 36 Bretonnian Men-at-Arms, 24 Peasant Bowmen with two defence stakes, three Pegasus Knights, and a Kingdom of Bretonnian Transfer sheet with 176 transfers.

Warhammer: The Old World – Fantasy Battles in the World of Legend Rulebook

The rulebook will also be available separately. This weighty 352-page tome features over 70 pages of background on the World of Legend, plus Core and Advanced rules for the game, an explanation of the Winds of Magic and rules for casting spells, a gallery of armies painted by the ’Eavy Metal studio, and rules for building armies and setting up your battlefields. It will also be released as a digital ePub version for easy access to rules on the go.

Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes
Rules for all nine factions in the game will be available at launch, in one of two tomes covering the forces of Good and Evil – Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes respectively.

Forces of Fantasy is a 192-page book available in hardback and ePub formats covering five factions: the Dwarfen Mountain Holds, the Empire of Man, the Kingdom of Bretonnia, the Wood Elf Realms, and the High Elf Realms. 

Each army gets an introduction, a gallery of miniatures, a grand army composition list, a complete set of unit profiles (so you’ll have no need for a separate army book to play), special rules, magic items, and unique spells.

Ravening Hordes contains all your Evil factions – it’s a 160-page hardback book or ePub containing similar material for the Orc and Goblin Tribes, the Warriors of Chaos, the Beastmen Brayherds, and the Tomb Kings of Khemri.

You’ll need the main Warhammer: The Old World rulebook to use either book.

Arcane Journals 
In addition to these hefty hardback books, there are the Arcane Journals – softback books for each faction that expand it all out with history, heraldry, maps, special characters (including a certain undead emperor), magic items, spells, a historical scenario, and thematic Armies of Infamy which let you select armies of very different compositions.

For instance, Arcane Journal: Kingdoms of Bretonnia has rules for armies of Bretonnian Exiles and Errantry Crusades, while Arcane Journal: Tomb Kings of Khemri  provides the Nehekharan Royal Host and the Mortuary Cults. It is important to know that you don’t require an Arcane Journal to play your chosen faction – all the units and army rules are contained in Ravening Hordes or Forces of Fantasy – but they do provide a trove of extra options and extra depth for discerning generals.

The Arcane Journals for the Kingdom of Bretonnia and Tomb Kings of Khemri will arrive at launch alongside their army releases, with those for other factions following in the future.

Tomb Kings of Khemri Miniatures
Not wanting to be outdone by the self-important short-lived mortals of Bretonnia, the venal and power-hungry royalty of Khemri have a handful of other new miniatures up their sandy sleeves.

Nekaph, Emissary of Settra

Settra the Imperishable has accumulated a truly prodigious number of epithets and achievements over the long centuries of his un-life, and this seemingly endless list of titles and victories is recounted in full by his loyal servant Nekaph before each battle – luckily, animated skeletons are very patient. Armed with the enchanted Flail of Conquered Kings, Nekaph, Emissary of Settra, pulverises those who refuse to kneel before his immortal liege.

Battle Standard Bearer

Royal Heralds are the personal champions of Nehekharan royalty, mighty combatants in life who retain their strength in undeath despite their withered forms. The greatest of these champions often bear banners featuring the personal heraldry of their master, inspiring the deathly legions that accompany them into battle.

Tomb Swarm

The Liche Priests of the Mortuary Cults are well-versed in the dark arts of necromancy, and they bolster the armies of their masters with writhing Tomb Swarms. Comprised of the reanimated corpses of scorpions, scarabs, and all the other critters that infest the necropolises of Khemri, these shifting, swirling masses can overpower well-trained combatants with a storm of bites and stings.

On top of all of these, a full range of classic Khemri miniatures will be returning to bolster the forces featured in this article, with much more to come in the future.

The Bretonnians and Tomb Kings are just the first two of nine factions arriving in the World of Legend. The rules for the other seven will be available at launch in Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes – and look out for miniature releases for the other seven in due course.

Don’t worry if you’re more of a follower of Hashut or interpreter of the Great Plan – Legacy army list PDFs for the other seven factions from Warhammer Fantasy Battles will be available shortly after launch.

All that’s left now is to reveal the pre-order date for this avalanche in the World of Legend. We’ve got a suspicion it might be quite soon – keep an eye on Warhammer Community to find out exactly when.

* At least according to Settra. We don’t like to argue with him.

[GamesPoet]

Quite the new info there.  An interesting turn of events.

[SaintofM]

I lke the book ideas. The smaller ones are reminiscent of 6th and 7th eddition books, and I suspect will be cheaper, but the larger texxtbook size variants would have all the armies of good and evil respectively, so you could have your allies there as well. Empire with Tebuchets. Brettonia with Slayers.

 am also just eyeballing here, but it looks like the starter boxes might have a good 1500 to 2000 points of minies in them

[KTG17]

Well, after some thought I am out. I am glad they brought back WFB and hope peeps enjoy it, but I am not falling for this crappy business model. I already have most of the Bretonnian and Tomb King models anyway, but if I didn't, and wanted to get into multiple armies, each starter box,which I already think is going to cost a lot of money, is going to include a massive hardback rulebook I do not want, and are being charged for. I don't know if subsequent starter armies will have the book, I can see it being either way, but hope GW comes to their senses to the benefit of the players. I mean, how many players only collect one army?!?

Then its the same model used for 30k, which killed my interest when they released the loyalist and traitor books (along with minimum unit sizes of 20 models for some units). Another set of giant books for opposing forces. So if I did want to collect a 'good' army, and a 'evil' army, I have to buy another set of giant books. Maybe its cheaper for them this way, as opposed to releasing 9 army books, but its just too much for me to justify buying. And if they are going to release pdfs or something for rules for Skaven and Chaos for veteran players, they certainly could have just released a Ravening Hordes mk III. GW is just exploiting a system here. I know there will be a peep here who will say 'I like what GW is doing' but I suspect this game will be about as popular as 30k is because the entry to play for new players is really high. It will no doubt draw in a bunch of veteran players initially, but then what? I don't see many new players dropping the amount of cash that seems to be needed to get started. This is my theory anyway, as GW seems to replicate how it releases things across different games.

I think I am just tapped out on GW too I guess. I am done with 40k forever (not with what I own, just future purchases), and I already have a ton of WFB minis. I can't see my buying anymore.

[commandant]

I lke the book ideas. The smaller ones are reminiscent of 6th and 7th eddition books, and I suspect will be cheaper, but the larger texxtbook size variants would have all the armies of good and evil respectively, so you could have your allies there as well. Empire with Tebuchets. Brettonia with Slayers.

 am also just eyeballing here, but it looks like the starter boxes might have a good 1500 to 2000 points of minies in them

I believe they have roughly 1250 points

[Rodman49]

Based on 1250 points per box - armies will be about the size they were in 6th edition.

For those of the old guard who love 4th/5th edition - the Bret box contains about 1700 points with no magic items.