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The Brush and Palette / Re: 10mm 3rd / 4th Edition Models
« Last post by Mike Stockin on Today at 12:23:08 PM »Some baggage for my Stirland lads!!
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Fanatic Management
« Last post by commandant on Today at 12:02:33 PM »
That means that more often than not the goblins with the combat and remember that the goblin is 4 points and the halbard is 6…
Except that night goblins don't cost 4 points. Night goblins cost 3 points.
Night goblins with spears cost 4 points.
Night goblins with spears and netters (assuming 25 in a unit) cost 4.8 points.
Night goblins with spears and netters and 1 goblin fanatic (still assuming 25 in a unit) cost 5.8 points.
Night goblins with spears and netters and 2 goblin fanatics could 6.8 points.
Night goblins with spears and netters and 3 goblin fanatics cost 7.8 points.
Some night goblin builds are cheaper than state troops. Some night goblin builds are more expensive.
In combat (assuming the night goblins are deployed 6 wide and the state troops are deployed 7 wide) you have 2 choices.
If the state troops charged then they have 8 attacks hitting on 3+ which is 5.3 wounds.
Now 5/6 of the time those 5.3 hits do 2.66 wounds and 1/6 of the time they do 3.55 wounds.
Goblins hit back with 10 attack which do 5 hits. Now 5/6 of the time those 5 hits do 2.5 wounds and 1/6 of the time those 5 hits do 1.66 wound.
The halberdiers always get a 6+ armour save bringing the 2.5 to 2 wounds and the 1.66 to 1.38.
On the times the halberdiers do more wounds (3.55) the night goblins do less (1.38). In this case the Halberdiers win by 2. The night goblins don't get a 3rd rank bonus because at 22/21 models deployed 6 wide they don't have 3 ranks anymore.
When the halberdiers do less (2.66) and the night goblins more (2.5) then it is a draw. The night goblins still do't get their third rank because deployed 6 wide the loss of 2 models from a 25 man unit is enough to remove the third rank.
Therefore on average the Empire win this engagement 1/6 of the time and they cost slightly more.
You could deploy 5 wide instead of 6 wide to ensure you keep the 3rd rank but then would need to redo the maths.
Also I don't really understand what a halberdiers unit would be doing without a combat detachment and if you add another 6-8 halberdier attacks then this isn't even close.
The night goblins charging isn't much better for the night goblins. Yes theu go first but with 7 attacks instead of 10 they only do 1.45 wounds. (5/6 of the time) and .97 wound (1/6) of the time. Meaning the Empire does 2.1 wounds (5/6 of the time) and 2.9 (1/6) of the time. Even if the night goblins charge the Empire wins or its a draw.
Again deploying 5 wide could change the maths
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Fanatic Management
« Last post by Sir Falo on Today at 10:23:15 AM »As mentioned. Vortexes. Necromancy, Illusion and Battle magic all have great vortexes. Remember that they release the fanatics before the vortex is removed. So that makes it so you can have a timing to charge them without facing fanatics.
The only unit that will fit into the space of the vortex are drilled knights or a (flying) monster. Two, max four knights can make contact without touching a fanatic during the charge.
They release the fanatics before the charge, but the fanatics will move before you strike, in your random movement sub-phase, but still directed by the NG player. They will be released at the edge of the vortex, and move through the charging unit that is now in contact with the NG horde.
Whatever you try, a lot of hurt is coming your way. There's no way but luck (doubles) that can help you.
NG units tend to have at least two fanatics, and they will release both when charged.
69% of the time you get hit by 2d6 S5 AP-3 hits. Kills 5 knights on the average.
28% of the time you get hit by 1d6 S5 AP-3 hits. Kills 2 knights on the average.
3% of the time both fanatics roll doubles.
On the average, you expect to lose 4 knights. That's a minimum sized unit gone. For a medium sized unit things then get interesting:
The knights' first charge negates the NG ranks. The NG mob still has close order and standard, so +2 CR to beat. It will likely cause no wounds on the knight unit.
1 normal knight will cause maybe one wound and lose the combat.
1 champion will cause one wound and lose the combat.
1 champion & normal knight will cause two wounds and lose combat because of the NG musician.
A champion & standard will cause two wounds and the get +1 CR from the standard. The NG mob now has to roll at -1.
Three knights will still have close order +1 CR, and are likely to contain a C/SB/M or all three, which makes things even easier.
That's only against two fanatics. Against three, you expect to lose 7 knights. I don't think you should charge at all, unless totally desperate or getting a big combo charge on a NG mob with at least two important characters.
Calculated with normal knights. IC knights will fare marginally better because of their armour. But they're tremendously expensive to waste on a NG mob.
I think the Steam Tank is the only secure thing to charge a NG horde. But it doesn't have first charge, so will be left there to grind. Might still win.
Of course it's a dice game and these are just averages. (In my experience, I will whiff my attacks anyway, so I'll auto-lose all combats, whatever the odds.)
-Zyg
You are right that you take the hits. Was thinking about to use Vortexes to protect you when you move up, not charging. Got it wrong.
Never use knights on fanatics. The only way to use knights vs fanatics is to try bait and wait. That only works if you have some shooting that force him to do bad moves. Night goblins do have bows tho, so not realy a thing (unless they have spears for some reason).
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Awesome things about Empire this edition
« Last post by drweir4 on Today at 10:04:42 AM »This might sound weird but the thing I’m enjoying most about them is they aren’t very good! It makes them a really interesting challenge to play with and to think about and makes winning feel a lot sweeter
Plus if I lose horribly it feels very thematic and fluffy as I suspect a divided empire worn down for civil war probably wasn’t very effective, probably had logistical issues (which is my narrative reason for everything costing too many points), and let’s be honest most of the time some humans with sticks probably wouldn’t be able to stop an ancient chaos lord, veteran of a thousand battles in the chaos wastes, covered in magic items and riding a massive magic dragon…
Plus if I lose horribly it feels very thematic and fluffy as I suspect a divided empire worn down for civil war probably wasn’t very effective, probably had logistical issues (which is my narrative reason for everything costing too many points), and let’s be honest most of the time some humans with sticks probably wouldn’t be able to stop an ancient chaos lord, veteran of a thousand battles in the chaos wastes, covered in magic items and riding a massive magic dragon…
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Fanatic Management
« Last post by drweir4 on Today at 09:44:46 AM »I think you are overestimating state troops vs night goblins, especially if you are trying to charge them
Let’s say you charge halberds into night goblins. You have like 8 attacks hitting on 3s, probably wounding on 4s because of nets so that’s maybe 3 dead goblins with decent confidence? Then assuming equal width they hit back with 12 attacks hitting on 4s wounding on 4s and empire have 6+ save. That’s also roughly 3 wounds
Goblins then have extra +1 combat res due to horde and I’m not even factoring the impact or not if fanatics
That means that more often than not the goblins with the combat and remember that the goblin is 4 points and the halbard is 6…
I play with o&g a lot and I am not concerned at all by state troops
Let’s say you charge halberds into night goblins. You have like 8 attacks hitting on 3s, probably wounding on 4s because of nets so that’s maybe 3 dead goblins with decent confidence? Then assuming equal width they hit back with 12 attacks hitting on 4s wounding on 4s and empire have 6+ save. That’s also roughly 3 wounds
Goblins then have extra +1 combat res due to horde and I’m not even factoring the impact or not if fanatics
That means that more often than not the goblins with the combat and remember that the goblin is 4 points and the halbard is 6…
I play with o&g a lot and I am not concerned at all by state troops
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Fanatic Management
« Last post by Zygmund on Today at 09:30:53 AM »Is it just me or does this sound like a job for the infantry
You're not alone. I said this early on in the discussion.
I'm pondering if a Free Company Militia unit might work here. It would save your State Troops, and suddenly two WS3 S3 attacks feel almost effective.
-Zyg
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Awesome things about Empire this edition
« Last post by Zygmund on Today at 09:27:21 AM »Free Companies. Their throwing weapons are perfect for the models with pistols, blunderbusses and an occasional bow or crossbow, and here the Impetuous rule is not breaking a unit, but adding to the feeling and playstyle. With Levies and Warband they're exactly what they should be: a semi-independent throwaway unit that can redirect, and threaten & contain enemy chaff.
Inner Circle Knights. Ld9, Drilled, IC and Veteran make these knights feel great. All their other special rules rock too, all add a special touch especially to this unit. They might be overcosted compared to the DGKs and you might want to fill the core with normal knights, but boy the IC knights are tough & maneuverable. This is actually a unit that my opponents fear, although it's a points sink.
Crossbows. 7pts per model compared to 8pts made them 14% more efficient. They had a comparative edge to Handgunners before because of range, but with the points reduction they're actually a good choice overall in the game. At the level of a HBVG, but more reliable and harder to remove. I'm moving to play less the artillery hill and more a crossbowmen hill. (Pity this comes at the cost of Handgunners.)
-Zyg
Inner Circle Knights. Ld9, Drilled, IC and Veteran make these knights feel great. All their other special rules rock too, all add a special touch especially to this unit. They might be overcosted compared to the DGKs and you might want to fill the core with normal knights, but boy the IC knights are tough & maneuverable. This is actually a unit that my opponents fear, although it's a points sink.
Crossbows. 7pts per model compared to 8pts made them 14% more efficient. They had a comparative edge to Handgunners before because of range, but with the points reduction they're actually a good choice overall in the game. At the level of a HBVG, but more reliable and harder to remove. I'm moving to play less the artillery hill and more a crossbowmen hill. (Pity this comes at the cost of Handgunners.)
-Zyg
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Fanatic Management
« Last post by commandant on Today at 09:15:52 AM »Is it just me or does this sound like a job for the infantry
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Fanatic Management
« Last post by Zygmund on Today at 08:50:25 AM »As mentioned. Vortexes. Necromancy, Illusion and Battle magic all have great vortexes. Remember that they release the fanatics before the vortex is removed. So that makes it so you can have a timing to charge them without facing fanatics.
The only unit that will fit into the space of the vortex are drilled knights or a (flying) monster. Two, max four knights can make contact without touching a fanatic during the charge.
They release the fanatics before the charge, but the fanatics will move before you strike, in your random movement sub-phase, but still directed by the NG player. They will be released at the edge of the vortex, and move through the charging unit that is now in contact with the NG horde.
Whatever you try, a lot of hurt is coming your way. There's no way but luck (doubles) that can help you.
NG units tend to have at least two fanatics, and they will release both when charged.
69% of the time you get hit by 2d6 S5 AP-3 hits. Kills 5 knights on the average.
28% of the time you get hit by 1d6 S5 AP-3 hits. Kills 2 knights on the average.
3% of the time both fanatics roll doubles.
On the average, you expect to lose 4 knights. That's a minimum sized unit gone. For a medium sized unit things then get interesting:
The knights' first charge negates the NG ranks. The NG mob still has close order and standard, so +2 CR to beat. It will likely cause no wounds on the knight unit.
1 normal knight will cause maybe one wound and lose the combat.
1 champion will cause one wound and lose the combat.
1 champion & normal knight will cause two wounds and lose combat because of the NG musician.
A champion & standard will cause two wounds and the get +1 CR from the standard. The NG mob now has to roll at -1.
Three knights will still have close order +1 CR, and are likely to contain a C/SB/M or all three, which makes things even easier.
That's only against two fanatics. Against three, you expect to lose 7 knights. I don't think you should charge at all, unless totally desperate or getting a big combo charge on a NG mob with at least two important characters.
Calculated with normal knights. IC knights will fare marginally better because of their armour. But they're tremendously expensive to waste on a NG mob.
I think the Steam Tank is the only secure thing to charge a NG horde. But it doesn't have first charge, so will be left there to grind. Might still win.
Of course it's a dice game and these are just averages. (In my experience, I will whiff my attacks anyway, so I'll auto-lose all combats, whatever the odds.
)-Zyg
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Drilled on Missile Troops
« Last post by commandant on Today at 08:27:02 AM »I think that only applies to frenzied units though