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Offline PaxImperator

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Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army from Altdorf
« on: July 13, 2024, 03:12:41 PM »
Way back in 2000 when I was 12 or 13, I got the Warhammer Fantasy Battle 6th edition starter box, the one with the orcs and the Empire. I’ve been in love with the Empire ever since. They were my first army. The puffy sleeves, the floppy hats, the ostentatious feathers... For me nothing quite hits the spot like Empire state troops. This thread documents the journey of rediscovery that will hopefully ensue as I reassemble, repaint and expand my Empire army of old.

This actually isn’t the first time I’m revisiting my Empire army. I initially painted the army in 2000 in the early stages of WHFB 6th edition. The colour scheme I chose was the blue and white of Middenland. I was in my early teens and it was my first army. Mistakes were made. I mostly painted the models in flat colours. No highlighting or shading. I wasn’t very diligent in removing mould lines either. I didn’t play a lot of games with the army either because I was soon distracted by Warhammer 40K 3rd and later 4th edition.

I came back to the Empire later during WHFB 6th edition. I'm not sure of the year anymore, but it must have been before WHFB 7th edition was released in 2006. By then I was in my mid-late teens and had much more hobby experience under my belt. I’d collected a sizeable Imperial Guard army, a decently sized Skaven army and expanded into a few abortive hobby projects like a small Space Marine force, the odd squad of Tau and Kroot and so on. Just your regular case of teenage lizard brain. Maybe it was the release of the Skaven army book in 2002 that rekindled my interest in WHFB? Whatever it was, it made me want to improve on the first iteration of my Empire army. By then I had long ago transferred from white to black primer, so out came the chaos black rattle can and I sprayed a number of painted Empire regiments black. The new colour scheme would be the red and black of Carroburg*.

* Which technically probably wasn’t accurate because the red and black uniform is a special distinction earned by the Carroburg Greatswords, heavily implying that other Carroburg troops wear different colours. But hey, red and black is a pretty cool colour scheme.

The Carroburg army would see quite a few 1,000 point pick-up games of WHFB 6th edition at the local Games Workshop. It’s from this period especially that I have fond memories and I look forward to making some new ones now that I’m coming back to the Empire.

Why am I even doing this? Quite a few reasons:
- I have a burning nostalgia for the 2000-2006 period that I hope to soothe.
- The army as it currently stands is unfinished: some 2,000 points still in Middenland colours or unpainted, approximately 1,000 points in Carroburg colours.
- I’ve decided that for me the only good Empire army is a brightly coloured one. Red and black over a black basecoat just doesn’t do it for me anymore.

All of which brings us to the following picture, showing my progression as a painter of Empire miniatures:



Going from left to right:
Crossbowman, c. 2000: Among the first 50 models I painted. White undercoat applied unevenly. No highlighting or shading. Missed a few spots. Plenty of mould lines. Awkward pose. I did thin my paints though! He’s finished except I never applied the green flock to his base.
Halberdier, c. 2000: More of the same, only slightly better. Probably among the first 100 models I painted. I even accidentally shaded the figure by thinning my enchanted blue way down! Never finished him though.
Spearman, c. 2006: He used to look like the models on the left, then I spray painted him chaos black to repaint him. I had learned to shade and highlight and had stepped up my basing game too. My brush control had improved too.
Free company fighter, 2022: After a hiatus of a decade or two, I was ready to get back into the hobby. Ordered a lot of Vallejo paints and set to work on a model I’d previously sprayed black but never painted in Carroburg colours. I still had to relearn a thing or two about painting. A lot of this model could be better but I’m not unhappy with him, all considered. This model really drove home to me that I’d have to work from a white undercoat if I was to get the vibrant colours I wanted.
Halberdier, 2024: After that free company fighter it took me two years to work up the courage for another Empire miniature. In between I practiced on other models, mostly Napoleonics. Very happy with how this one turned out. I think I'm at about the same level again as when I went on hiatus around 2008, which is very gratifying.

Here are some close-ups of the new test model.



I opted for Altdorf’s colours of red and blue. As a secondary, err.. primary colour I’ve added yellow. Because how often do you get the chance to use all three primary colours on a single model? The exact colours aren’t definitive yet. I want to try a few different formulations for the red and blue. Red's still such a hard colour to paint! I’ll also definitely try a different colour for the halberd shaft. I think the reddish brown detracts from the red of the uniform. I could go for a grey, a dark brown or a yellowish brown. The model's base, of course isn't finished yet.

If you'll excuse me, I have another 9 halberdiers on my desk to give a brighter future. Looking forward to sharing my progress on this project with you as I go. :)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2024, 11:18:55 AM by PaxImperator »

Offline PaxImperator

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Yesterday I set myself one simple task: Finish another test model and make sure it's a failure. It's the first time I'm approaching a model like this. My thinking is that it might be freeing to make failure my express goal because it lets me experiment and make guilt-free mistakes that I can learn from. (And then correct!) If I'd always played it safe I'd still be painting my models in flat colours like I did back in 2000. In particular, I wanted to try another way to paint the blue parts of the uniform and to put so much yellow on the model that it would drown out the red and blue, just to learn how far I could go with it.

Yesterday was a failure (and therefore a success?) but not in the way I had envisioned. Just as I was about to start on my second test model, a little voice in my head said: Wouldn't it be more efficient if you painted the skin on all 9 halberdiers at the same time? You already know how you're going to paint the skin anyway. Fair enough. So I get the other halberdiers out and am reminded they are all still black. OK, so I'll have to undercoat them first. Fine. But wait, they're still covered in mould lines! Can't have that, can we? So I get out my hobby knife and start cleaning off any remaining mould lines. But wait, says the voice in my head again. Wouldn't it be great if they had a few more feathers in their caps so you can paint them bright yellow? Yes, that sounds reasonable. So out come the glue and the bits box, and I set to work gluing feathers to hats and helmets. But wait, the Empire bits in my bits box are intermixed with goblin bits! Wouldn't it be great if they were organised properly? Well yes. So I start reorganising my bits box.

Having done that, just as I finally glue on the last feather, I realise there's a gap between one model's torso and arm. I really should fill that gap, shouldn't I? So I get out the green stuff and fill the gap. Not a bad job considering I hadn't touched green stuff since the late 2000s. But wait, there's some left over. What do I do with it? I know! I'll sculpt a purity seal on this one halberdier here. It'll be mostly obscured by his halberd so no biggie if it's not perfect. So I do that and am just admiring the result when I realise I have some more green stuff left over. No problem, I'll try sculpting on an extra bit of puffy trouser leg on this other halberdier. What could go wrong, right? Some thirty minutes into sculpting the puffy trouser leg I despaired of my chances of getting it right before bed time, so I cut my losses and scraped the green stuff off. As I was doing so, I remembered that green stuff has a curing time of 24 hours so there's no way I can still base coat the models white today. So instead, I just paint the skin on the second test model. As I should have done instead of listening to that little voice in my head. At least I now have an organised bits box and 8 models ready for priming!  ;D

Anyway, here's what the next 8 halberdiers look like:



The second from the left has the filled gap and the first from the right has the purity seal.

My mission for today and tomorrow will be to paint up that test model and not get distracted. Wish me luck!

Offline Tiberius

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I also burn for the hobby from the period of 2000-2006.  I was also 13 in 2001 and got hooked on the hobby. I remember looking through my friends GW terrian book and my imagination being swept away looking at all those old 5th edition models.

Also, you hobby sessions sound a lot like mine, though I usually spend at least 15 minutes look for some crucial but missing piece or tool. Frustrating because during this time of my life I don’t get many of them!  Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing the journey!

Offline Rowsdower

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Great job on the halberdier. It screams 'Mid 90's'

Offline PaxImperator

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I also burn for the hobby from the period of 2000-2006.  I was also 13 in 2001 and got hooked on the hobby. I remember looking through my friends GW terrian book and my imagination being swept away looking at all those old 5th edition models.

Also, you hobby sessions sound a lot like mine, though I usually spend at least 15 minutes look for some crucial but missing piece or tool. Frustrating because during this time of my life I don’t get many of them!  Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing the journey!

Thanks and welcome aboard!

Great job on the halberdier. It screams 'Mid 90's'

Haha cheers! I can see why you'd say that, what with the sculpt itself, the bright red uniform and the goblin green base.  :biggriin: I'm hoping to propel them a few years into the future with the base, which will be sand and static grass. I'll take mid-90s as a nice starting point though.

Anyway, I have succeeded in failing spectacularly. Let me show you a work-in-progress shot of my second test model:



My mistakes:

- The yellow stockings were probably a mistake. They draw the eye to the model's ankles, which must be the least interesting part of the model.
- It doesn't take much yellow to overpower the red and blue. The yellow hat and stockings are already pushing it. I kind of saw it coming when I was going to paint the jacket, so opted for buff instead of yellow. Which leads to:
- Buff goes terribly with yellow. Won't be using that paint again.
- I tried painting the eyes with a dark brown dot, a white dot inside of that and finally another brown dot inside of that for the pupil. Found out the eyes are just too small for me to do that.

Other learnings:
- Painted the blue with an additional layer (50/50 mix between base tone and highlight) and discovered it's now brighter than I'd like. Will stick to the original recipe.
- Painted red ink over the base red colour, which brightens it noticeably. Happy with the result and will use this technique on future models.

A side-by-side comparison between the finished (bar bases) test models:




Next I'll try some more variations in where I apply the red, blue and yellow on a few more test models. Stay tuned!

Finally, for my own future reference, I used these paints:

Model 1Model 2
Yellow:72.006 Sun Yellow basecoat, AP soft tone shade, 50/50 72.006 Sun Yellow/72.001 Dead White"     "
Blue:72.021 Magic Blue basecoat, 72.088 Blue ink, 72.023 Electric Blue highlight"     " + 50/50 Magic Blue/Electric Blue highlight
Red:72.010 Bloody Red basecoat, AP strong tone shade, 72.009 Hot Orange highlight72.010 Bloody Red basecoat, 72.086 Red ink, 50/50 AP dark tone/AP speedpaint medium shade, 72.009 Hot Orange highlight
Black:70.862 Black Grey basecoat, 72.091 Black ink shade, 70.836 London Grey highlight"     "
Skin:72.041 Dwarf Skin basecoat, AP Flesh Wash shade, Dwarf Skin highlight, 72.004 Elf Skintone highlight"     "
Wood:72.044 Dark Fleshtone70.874 Tan Earth
Metal:77.712 Steel basecoat, AP dark tone shade, 77.724 Silver highlight77.712 Steel basecoat, 77.724 Silver highlight

All paints are Vallejo, except AP (= The Army Painter)

Offline Gankom

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Nice stuff!

Offline Noigrim8

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Primming in white was my beginner's mistake back in 2000
Still better than Stirland

Offline GamesPoet

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A good read here, congrats, and will keep checking in on your progress. :icon_cool: :::cheers:::
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Offline Rowsdower

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I know i bring this up all the time but i think its a pity that box set isn't available anymore. It was such a versatile kit

Offline PaxImperator

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Thanks for the kind words Gankom and GamesPoet!

Primming in white was my beginner's mistake back in 2000

And have you later gone back to white as I have or stuck to your (presumably) black primer since then?

I know i bring this up all the time but i think its a pity that box set isn't available anymore. It was such a versatile kit

Amen. Better than what came before it and what's come after it. I consider myself very lucky to still have two untouched boxes of them ready to be assembled and painted up. I've still found no alternative. What is out there seems to be a poor fit in terms of scale and/or style.

Offline PaxImperator

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2024, 05:23:54 PM »
Here's a small update on the halberdiers front. WiP shots of test models 3-5:




And two shots of the mostly finished models:




I'm pretty happy with how the colour scheme on model 3 turned out, although I think the halberd shaft would look better in a different colour than the black grey I also used on the jerkin.

With model 4 I took a risk by adding as much yellow on the sleeves as I did. Halfway through I thought better of it and replaced half the yellow bands with red and blue ones. In retrospect I think the original idea of two colours per sleeve would have worked better. It might look quite good with red and blue bands, which also would avoid the risk of putting too much yellow on the model.

Model 5 taught me that this way lies madness. I thought I'd paint the slashes in the cloth a contrasting colour, as with the historical Landsknechts that these models are based on. It took me about 10 times as long to paint and doesn't look as striking to my eyes as any of the other models. Just as with model 4, it seems the more time I spend on intricate patterns, the worse they look. I think the problem is that there are too many slashes, they're too narrow and too close together. The end result is it all looks a bit jumbled. It's especially bad on the left leg and torso and not nearly as bad on the arms. I'll try this again but will be picky about the model I try it on.

Now it's question time: Which colour halberd shaft do you prefer? Going from left to right we have: 1. medium reddish brown, 2. beige, 3. dark grey, 4. dark brown. I think I prefer the beige but I'm not sure yet.

As a closing thought, what is wrong with these models' halberds! >:( Just with general handling and painting I've managed to bend three of them and snapped another clean off. It seems like a heavy drybrushing would be enough to damage them. Very annoying. I'll have to think of something to prevent this happening as much in the future. I'm thinking greenstuff tassels where the blade meets the shaft plus putting multiple models on a single base.

Offline Rowsdower

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2024, 02:14:07 PM »
Great job

Offline Warlord

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2024, 06:16:24 AM »
As a closing thought, what is wrong with these models' halberds! >:( Just with general handling and painting I've managed to bend three of them and snapped another clean off. It seems like a heavy drybrushing would be enough to damage them. Very annoying. I'll have to think of something to prevent this happening as much in the future. I'm thinking greenstuff tassels where the blade meets the shaft plus putting multiple models on a single base.

That's a thought I haven't heard in a LONG time. A long time.
6th ed plastics were fantastic, however the halberds were notorious for exactly this.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Rowsdower

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2024, 02:18:15 PM »
^
I personally HATED the two piece metal banner that was originally included with it. I never bothered with that thing. Being said, there really wasnt anything wrong with that kit

Offline Warlord

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2024, 03:54:27 AM »
I hated it because it made the model fall over constantly.
There was one of the metal arm combos though, that was just one arm holding it up in marching pose - that one I liked.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Sharkbelly

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2024, 12:21:58 AM »
Looking great. The colors really pop, and I love to see these old classics!

Offline Gorim

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2024, 10:25:56 AM »
The yellow really makes them pop:)

Offline PaxImperator

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2024, 10:35:19 AM »
Thanks for the kind words one and all!

Looking great. The colors really pop, and I love to see these old classics!
The yellow really makes them pop:)

Then I've succeeded in what I set out to do because brightness is the name of the game with this army.  :happy:

That's a thought I haven't heard in a LONG time. A long time.
6th ed plastics were fantastic, however the halberds were notorious for exactly this.

Haha, I came across some old threads discussing exactly this while looking for a solution! :biggriin:

^
I personally HATED the two piece metal banner that was originally included with it. I never bothered with that thing. Being said, there really wasnt anything wrong with that kit

Easily broken halberds aside, I do really like the kit. I've been keeping an eye out for old models I can refurbish on auction sites. The only thing holding me back is fear of my girlfriend's glare when my purchasing outstrips my painting.

Whelp, it's been three weeks! :o The good news is that I have an update. The first 10 halberdiers are done. One errant fireball and a failed panic check away from an ignominious flight, but that's soldiering in the Empire for you. Here they are in all their glory.


Entire unit


Back rank


Rear view

What do you think?

I actually managed not to snap any more halberds, which was a relief. The sides of the bases are, of course, goblin green (Vallejo 72.030). It's indistinguishable from GW's goblin green that I was using back in 2000-2006. The static grass is literally the same because I had plenty left over at the time.

Since I have a lot  more painting to do for this project, I've decided I need to trick my lizard brain into thinking I'm nearly done. The way to do that is to paint the army in small chunks. Here's the first 500 points:

62   Captain: great weapon, full plate armour   
   
200   25 spearmen: full command, shields   
60      10 halberdiers
80      10 handgunners
      
100   great cannon   
      
502   


The point of the list is not necessarily to be viable in an actual game, but to let me track my progress. And what do you know, I've already painted the 10 halberdiers and all the other models are 'just' repaints. So I'm practically done already, see?  :)

Speaking of repaints, here are the handgunners I'll be repainting:





They are of course from the 6th edition starter box. If I were to do them over from scratch I'd do some headswaps on the back rank for variety, but that's a bit too involved for me at this stage. Overall I'm not unhappy with these. They're not up to my current standards but they look just fine on the tabletop. Also I have another 19 unpainted ones, so plenty of opportunity for headswaps later. The challenge will be to get the red bright enough. I have my work cut out for me there, as you can see:


Offline Naitsabes

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2024, 09:03:14 PM »
Nice takes on the classics.

I don't think the red will be hard to brighten. Now getting that nice, rich, even blue over the black on the other hand...
The Empire Road to Volganof Last update 18Mar2023 - Pistoliers & Baggage train)

Offline Rowsdower

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2024, 01:39:16 PM »
You could try getting you're girlfriend into the hobby. Most of the players and hobbyists at the local shop in my town have wives/girlfriends who have shown an interest

Offline stareso

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2024, 01:56:27 PM »
Stunning group of puffy sleeved lads - the bright colours are really working well and with the basing they pop even more. As for the halberd poles I like beige the most as well, but very much recognize how difficult such a simple choice can be. Also those breaking halberds are a nightmare, I agree. I have a bout 40 of those boys and I think less than 10 still have intact halberds. I bought new halberds from a different company to replace them.

I look forward to seeing more!

Offline PaxImperator

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2024, 05:36:02 PM »
Nice takes on the classics.

I don't think the red will be hard to brighten. Now getting that nice, rich, even blue over the black on the other hand...

Thanks! And I think you're in for a surprise...  :biggriin:

You could try getting you're girlfriend into the hobby. Most of the players and hobbyists at the local shop in my town have wives/girlfriends who have shown an interest

I'd like that but it seems very unlikely at the moment. She's never shown an interest in joining in. Still, she's supportive of me painting and playing with my little men and that's good enough for me.

Stunning group of puffy sleeved lads - the bright colours are really working well and with the basing they pop even more. As for the halberd poles I like beige the most as well, but very much recognize how difficult such a simple choice can be. Also those breaking halberds are a nightmare, I agree. I have a bout 40 of those boys and I think less than 10 still have intact halberds. I bought new halberds from a different company to replace them.

I look forward to seeing more!

Thanks! You're right it's these ostensibly simple choices that are the hardest to make because they carry over to the whole army. Same thing with the handguns. I'm leaning towards more beige because it worked on the halberds, but we'll see. What company's halberds are you using, out of interest?

I've taken some snapshots of my experiment to ask and answer one simple question: Is it faster to paint red over dark red or over white? The results are as unsurprising as they are decisive.

From left to right we have: 1. white test subject 2. reference model (starting stage) 3. dark red test subject 4. reference model (end stage)

In this shot I have already applied 4 coats of red paint and ink on no. 3. (and two thin coats of blue, which covered very well indeed).


Another coat of red or two on no. 3...


First white coat on no. 1.


Second white coat on no. 1...


Third white coat on no. 1...


Fourth white coat on no. 1...


And one red coat on no. 1.


I'm calling it here. No. 1 will probably need one more thin red coat but already he's brighter than no. 3. I'll just put no. 3 in a back rank somewhere he won't stand out. The clothes seams on his calves are already hard to make out so I can't keep putting on the paint. Good to know for certain that I'd best paint over white. What's that?

This model really drove home to me that I’d have to work from a white undercoat if I was to get the vibrant colours I wanted.

Shush now! I didn't forget my own words; I just wanted empirical evidence. :x

Next up: 8 more handgunners getting covered in white paint in three... two... one...

Offline PaxImperator

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2024, 07:57:41 AM »
I'm riding a wave of painting motivation at the moment. It'll abate in time, but for now I'm making the most of it. Look at the progress on my handgunners!



Some observations on the balance between yellow, red and blue:
1 & 5: These are the models from the experiment from before. Glad to see our more muted fellow fits in reasonably well in the unit.
2, 3, 4, 6, 9: After painting them I realised the red and yellow bands look a bit like the Catalan independence flag. That wasn't the plan. I think I'll paint over it on 3 and 9 because they already have yellow feathers. The plan is still to have some yellow on every miniature, just not too much.
7: Happy with this one. I think the white feather adds some visusal interest.
8: I made a mistake here with the yellow. Applying it widthwise worked well on the halberdiers but here it just highlights the unnaturally long straight lines across the width of the sleeves.
10: Happy with this one too. the amount of yellow is just right.

I'm enjoying painting the handgunners less than the halberdiers. Part of it is having to apply layer upon layer of white before I can get to the fun stuff, part of it is the sculpts. The puffy sleeves on the handgunners look less natural in places. They also don't have as many details that lend themselves to being painted a third contrasting colour, like those ribbons all the halberdiers have around their lower legs. On future models I'll do headswaps and add feathers in caps for variety and to give me more places to put yellow. I do still like the overall look of the handgunner models. I'll make it work!  :)

Offline stareso

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2024, 01:01:53 PM »
Nice work again Pax, loving the handgunners too. They seem really bright (in a good way), did you use a white undercoat for them as well? It is clear from your experiment what difference a white base makes. Although repainting four layers of white over your old models must be a bit of a chore?

Good on you for riding that wave of motivation! I hear you, these are usually temporary, it is how life goes. For now we are enjoying the fruits of your labour, keep it up!

As for your question on replacements, I had to look for quite a while before I found suitable halberds. Most suppliers really don't capture that Empire feel in my opinion. I ended up with Brother Vinni's, as these are very fitting in style and properly scaled, to my eyes at least!

https://brother-vinni.com/products/halberds-for-conversion-wargame-fantasy-28mm-resin-bits

Cheers

Offline PaxImperator

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Re: Frippery & Vacillation - an Empire army between Carroburg and Altdorf
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2024, 11:07:00 AM »
Thanks! After reading your post I immediately got up from the computer and got back to painting.  :happy:

To answer your question, I've followed the same procedure as with the test models, so yes they all got four coats of white before I could get properly started. It's quite a chore, as you've said. I'm trying to think of ways to lessen the burden for future models. What I've come up with so far:
- No white on parts that are going to be blue. The blue covers well enough without it. This alone should save me about half the work!
- I'll paint the jerkins black grey instead of blue/red or yellow.
- I'll see if a medium grey as a first undercoat would mean one less coat of white.

Thanks for the halberd link. That would have taken me a long time to find myself. They do seem to fit the bill nicely.