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21
The Brush and Palette / Re: Talabecland Army
« Last post by Indio on June 11, 2025, 09:24:51 PM »
Slowly but surely I'm making progress on painting my pile of shame (though I think it's actually increased over the last 12 months). With these last models, I have a fully painted 1500 point army, and then some.

First up, a couple priests of Ulric from Steinwacht, which I have themed as the main religion in the town. And, Klaus, Jr. Engineer of the The Steinwacht Powderworks. (Jr. Engineer because I'm using a handgunner champion model for an Engineer).





And then, a unit of 5 outriders w/ champion:




While I was finishing these up, I built my General of the Empire on a Griffon, which I'll be painting next followed by a steam tank, which should round out a basic 2000 point army.
22
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: MSU infantry
« Last post by Edwin von Dufflecoat on June 11, 2025, 07:05:36 PM »
Yeah kinda, I do like to run twelves and 2 sixes. 24 halberds amd 24 crossbows ( I don't like to mix and match!) Is usually the core of the army with small units of archers, flagellents and greatswords. Handful of low level heroes, with minimal kit , and 3 guns for 1500pt games. It isn't amazing...at anything, but has come second in a local tournament.

23
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / MSU infantry
« Last post by Footpatrol2 on June 11, 2025, 05:01:04 PM »
Has anyone tried heavy MSU infantry?

What I mean is lots of units of 10 man with support detachments of 5 man. Something that empire can do very well is bring a lot of small units. We can do it so well that we can go board edge to board edge several times.
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Battleline
« Last post by commandant on June 11, 2025, 11:49:52 AM »
So the reason I advise detachments is that they do all the things your supporting units do plus more.

For example the detachments help you against points dense and powerful units like dragons because they offer a counter charge possibility that give +2 CR which is a big deal when you are trying to get to CR7.

I also didn't think size is vastly important. That is a supporting unit that is 10 models big is the same as a supporting unit that is 20. (This may change if you need US10 for the +1CR).
The point if the supporting units is to create a disrupted charge and bring in more attacks.

A number of points to consider.

Because the middle unit must be contacted there doesn't need to be a banner or ranks in either of the supporting units.   During deployment the supporting units can deploy as wide or one less as your opponent's standard width. The parent (middle unit) must deploy as wide (or even 1 wider) than your opponent's standard width. With detachments you don't mind if your opponent contacts your parent unit and not you detachments as this will just result in your detachments countercharging but you need any charge against the supporting units to contact the parent.

The formation needs to be an aggressive as well as a defensive threat. I like the battle lust spell.   Sure it gives +1 attack to each model with frenzy (though if you have a load of supporting attacks that is not such a big deal) but it also gives hatred which is a big deal. It also transfers from your parent to your detachments. This means that you can unlease a truly stupid number of attacks on the charge with hatred.
The combination of battle lust and word of pain will see you just rip through units.

Demigriffons I think make bad supporting units because contacting the parent and clipping the demigriffons removes a lot of attacks. You rather want your demigriffons to be poised to countercharge the flank where 2 will have 8 attacks instead of 6 and 3 will have 12 attacks instead if 8.
25
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Possible Update for the Rules of The Old World ...
« Last post by commandant on June 11, 2025, 11:08:11 AM »
Some of my thoughts didn't colour green. I'll fix it when I get home and onto my computer
26
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Possible Update for the Rules of The Old World ...
« Last post by commandant on June 11, 2025, 10:34:12 AM »
On my phone so I will put my thoughts in green
Quote from: Perforated on June 11, 2025, 06:52:38 AM
Quote
Close Order bonus for unit strength 10+ only

This will hit smaller units of elite infantry very hard and it is also making detachments worse. It also does nothing to curb the US 10 Chaos Dragon.
I agree that this is a bad change. It basically limits the +1CR from close order to large infantry units and the chaos dragon. It is punishing for detachments (meaning that you'll need to take 15 or so in a combat detachment now) but it is also punishing for all cavalry which now need 5 models to keep their +1CR, all monsterous infantry that now need 3 models, all chariots etc. It will push people towards bigger units maybe but 8th edition showed that to be a mistake. I don't know what problem this is meant to solve.
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Only infantry and cavalry can get a 2+ armour save

Ok? But I don't think that the 2+ AS on big things is the problem, it's the ability to stack all the saves.
I'm okay with this. A weakening of the saves on big monsters is good. Given that even the strongest AP is only generally 3 or so (with possible AB) this could impact the maths. Sure combing saves is still a problem but this is at least a step in the right direction
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Supporting attacks can only be made within your base movement

This will not have as big of an impact as you think. If you are on 25mm bases and you are fighting a unit that is five models wide you can still rock a 13 model frontage (assuming M4).
I don't feel that supporting attacks were that big a problem. I like it for the consistency but I don't think its a massive change
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Impetuous is now based on leadership

Good. But I do hope it will be units own leadership (or character in the unit) and that warband cannot influence this.
I think it would be fun if warband was a negative modifier to the Impetuous roll to show the confidence of numbers but I doubt that will happen. I hope it is units' own leadership not general's leadership as well.

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Chaos Dragon is now Impetuous

Ok, but if Impetuous is a Ld test this will be a minor nuisance at worst.
agreed. Also doesn't the chaos dragon what to charge mostly.

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Empire State Troops get Warband

Does nothing to help state troops. Leadership is not their problem. If anything in the empire army should be getting warband it's the flagellants.
agreed. I'd like to see something to reflect their professional nature. Drilled would be good but it would be fun if Empire parent units could charge through their detachments or something
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Cast/Dispel bonuses are capped at wizard level +1 (so no stacking Mortis engines)

Unless this is part of some bigger change (like reducing the base casting modifiers for level) then this seems odd.
does this mean that a level 4 can only have a casting bonus of +5. (Wizard level +1). If so then I don't think it's that important.

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Poison now +1 to wound not auto wound

Seems like a nerf, but I haven't done the math on it yet.
seems like a nerf. I realise that massive poison blocks were a thing against dragons and stuff in tournaments but did they really need to be nerfed?your dragon has to be afraid of something
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Pillar of fire now random move

As much as pillar of fire has been a great tool for me I think this is a change that is good.
and brings it in line with other magical vortexs
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TMP wholly within

Good. For those who do not know, TMP stands for Travel Mystical Pathway.
I feel like players should stop trying to abuse the rules but this is a good clarification

Quote
Ogre Blade now 75pts

Ok.

This means you can't have the Orge blade and a ward save. This seems a good change to me.
Quote
Chaos regen items now Cav+Infantry only

Save stacking should be removed via the core rules. IMO you can have all the saves but only ever use two of them (at your own discretion).


I agree


Quote
Royal Pegasus +10pts

Ok.
Is this the first time that there have been points changes? +10 points is quite a large increase. From 60-70 points. I wonder what gets dropped.

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Pegasus Knights +4pts

Does nothing to curb Pegasus knights. They are still durable, hard-hitting and ultra-mobile with a 360 degree charge arc.


This is true but what is +4 points for a unit. Maybe +16 or +20 points. Combine that with the +10 points for the royal peggy and that unit is now 20 or 30 points more expensive. That is half a peggy knight. Something else will need to give at least a little. The change might be too small but a small step.

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Skirmishers can only charge if over half the unit can draw line of sight to the target

Seems strange to me. It does nothing to hamper pegasus knights in all but the extreme edge cases. And for all others it's a general nerf.
Just replace the skirmish rules with those from 8th and be done with it.

Can we just get rid of skirmishers as single models. In a line battle game they make very limited sense.
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Arcane urgency now one less to cast at 9+

Ok.

No thoughts

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Stupidity prevents casting and shooting

Ok.

Sure. I don't know if the test is off your own leadership but if it isn't that would also be a good improvement.

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Skin wolf buffs don't affect characters

Ok.

Sure.

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Vortexes are now dispelled from the vortex not the wizard

Good, but I also fear that this might make high level wizards slightly more oppressive.

This is a good change. High level wizards are already good so we'll see how magic is changed.

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Impact hits happen before challenges are declared

Makes sense.

I don't mind. I like the idea of the challenger moving out from the unit bellowing his challenge but I don't think its that big a deal except for the fact that it nerfs slightly using challenges as a method of limiting CR.

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Trollhammer Torpedo is now Cumbersome and S5

Ok.

Seems reasonable

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Trolls get motley crew

Why? You can't mix different trolls in the same unit and the only reasonable upgrade for them is great weapons as they have initiative 1.


If you are I1 there is no downside to greatweapons so why not take them.

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Flails get armour bane (1) on the charge

Why? Seems entirely superfluous.


Makes them hit harder I suppose. It'll make them really good against the new higher armour save infantry.

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Halberds are AP +2 on the charge

Why?

I think this is to balance out the new higher armour save infantry. If you get an extra +1 for sword and board then men-at-arms with sword and board have a 4+ save. This makes handweapon and shield an obvious choice and gives them a good advantage against halberdiers. Now that halberdiers have +2AP and Armour bane (assuming this doesn't go away) the previous balance is somewhat restored.


This is quite a useful change for the empire I think as we have access to cheap halberdiers. Given that none of the state troops have any armour against halberdiers (greatswords aside) it doesn't hurt us at all in infantry confrontations but will help against more armoured foes.
This also make halberdiers a lot more dangerous against knights and other heavily armoured things. A 2+ save is twice as good as a 3+ save. I think a 3+ save is 33% better than a 5+ save and so on.  I think this could be a big but reasonably hidden buff.

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infantry get +1 combat res if they outnumber their opponent

Good.


I see the ghost of 6th edition is back. This gives an advantage to cheap units though it is an advantage for detachments as well due to their ability to concentrate bodies.


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Infantry/Heavy infantry only, +1 armour in melee if using hand weapon + shield up to max 3+

This is a shit rule and I'll die on that hill. It will only serve to push out special weapons options as survivability is generally more valuable than a mediocre attack.


We'll see how this works, combined with the change to halberds. This is another ghost of 6th edition. In 6th swordsmen were the go to choice for the WS4 and 4+ save. However the fact that halberdiers and spearmen can be WS4 and halberds are now AP2 means the choice won't be that clear cut. This is if anything (for us) a nerf to spears who will see greater levels of armour with no greater levels of killing power.
However if this pushes a lot of races towards sword and board and strength 3 attacks the T3 of humans will be less of a weakness and the 5+ AS of the spears will be better.
Could be terrible, could be good. We'll need to wait an see.


I would have liked all infantry in close order to get +1AS but that is just me.



27
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Possible Update for the Rules of The Old World ...
« Last post by Perforated on June 11, 2025, 06:52:38 AM »
Quote
Close Order bonus for unit strength 10+ only

This will hit smaller units of elite infantry very hard and it is also making detachments worse. It also does nothing to curb the US 10 Chaos Dragon.

Quote
Only infantry and cavalry can get a 2+ armour save

Ok? But I don't think that the 2+ AS on big things is the problem, it's the ability to stack all the saves.

Quote
Supporting attacks can only be made within your base movement

This will not have as big of an impact as you think. If you are on 25mm bases and you are fighting a unit that is five models wide you can still rock a 13 model frontage (assuming M4).

Quote
Impetuous is now based on leadership

Good. But I do hope it will be units own leadership (or character in the unit) and that warband cannot influence this.

Quote
Chaos Dragon is now Impetuous

Ok, but if Impetuous is a Ld test this will be a minor nuisance at worst.

Quote
Empire State Troops get Warband

Does nothing to help state troops. Leadership is not their problem. If anything in the empire army should be getting warband it's the flagellants.

Quote
Cast/Dispel bonuses are capped at wizard level +1 (so no stacking Mortis engines)

Unless this is part of some bigger change (like reducing the base casting modifiers for level) then this seems odd.

Quote
Poison now +1 to wound not auto wound

Seems like a nerf, but I haven't done the math on it yet.

Quote
Pillar of fire now random move

As much as pillar of fire has been a great tool for me I think this is a change that is good.

Quote
TMP wholly within

Good. For those who do not know, TMP stands for Travel Mystical Pathway.

Quote
Ogre Blade now 75pts

Ok.

Quote
Chaos regen items now Cav+Infantry only

Save stacking should be removed via the core rules. IMO you can have all the saves but only ever use two of them (at your own discretion).

Quote
Royal Pegasus +10pts

Ok.

Quote
Pegasus Knights +4pts

Does nothing to curb Pegasus knights. They are still durable, hard-hitting and ultra-mobile with a 360 degree charge arc.

Quote
Skirmishers can only charge if over half the unit can draw line of sight to the target

Seems strange to me. It does nothing to hamper pegasus knights in all but the extreme edge cases. And for all others it's a general nerf.
Just replace the skirmish rules with those from 8th and be done with it.

Quote
Arcane urgency now one less to cast at 9+

Ok.

Quote
Stupidity prevents casting and shooting

Ok.

Quote
Skin wolf buffs don't affect characters

Ok.

Quote
Vortexes are now dispelled from the vortex not the wizard

Good, but I also fear that this might make high level wizards slightly more oppressive.

Quote
Impact hits happen before challenges are declared

Makes sense.

Quote
Trollhammer Torpedo is now Cumbersome and S5

Ok.

Quote
Trolls get motley crew

Why? You can't mix different trolls in the same unit and the only reasonable upgrade for them is great weapons as they have initiative 1.

Quote
Flails get armour bane (1) on the charge

Why? Seems entirely superfluous.

Quote
Halberds are AP +2 on the charge

Why?

Quote
infantry get +1 combat res if they outnumber their opponent

Good.

Quote
Infantry/Heavy infantry only, +1 armour in melee if using hand weapon + shield up to max 3+

This is a shit rule and I'll die on that hill. It will only serve to push out special weapons options as survivability is generally more valuable than a mediocre attack.
28
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Possible Update for the Rules of The Old World ...
« Last post by Damar on June 11, 2025, 04:45:32 AM »
Quote from: Dazgrim on June 11, 2025, 01:00:01 AM
What's wrong with Dark Coven?

It adds +1 to castel/dispel rolls per friendly wizard within range so it sort of becomes useless when it's meant to buff your casting if I understand the Cap of +1 correctly.

Quote from: Edwin von Dufflecoat on June 10, 2025, 08:57:36 PM
Much needed change to impetuous there. And the close order unit strength thingy ( tho it does somewhat nerf my own strategy for state infantry).  I'm unimpressed by warband for state troopers. That's a rule for rabble, not disciplined troops!  Should be drilled all round as standard.

What's tmp?

Horde would have buffed the troops more since Empire is in fairly good spot when it comes to morale rolls anyhow. However, if they are willing to make point adjustments then they should have dropped State Trooper to 4pts or even 3pts

With that you would end up with spearmen that costs the same as Yeomen Guard with similiar stats and equipment (Though Yeomen Guards are still better if we skip the potential of detachments due to Shieldwall, Horde & Veteran)
29
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Rumors and what's new to be expected for The Old World ...
« Last post by lcmiracle on June 11, 2025, 04:38:39 AM »
Well that "8the edition Cathay army bbook is something Andy Hall kept totting around back before TWWIII's release. He did a interview/podcast with youtubers Great book of grudges and loremaster of sotek a couple years ago and supposedly read from it (but he never showed the book itself)
If it's the same source that got us the neucathay then the whole project can go to hell as far as I am concerned
30
The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Possible Update for the Rules of The Old World ...
« Last post by Dazgrim on June 11, 2025, 01:03:41 AM »
Quote from: Edwin von Dufflecoat on June 10, 2025, 08:57:36 PM
What's tmp?

Travel Mystical Pathways, the Elementalism conveyance spell that people have been abusing in tournaments. "If one corner of my huge poison archer block is still within 12" of where the block started..."
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