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Author Topic: Engineer 8.0  (Read 19969 times)

Offline bojones16

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2009, 02:35:03 AM »
I know Nebel we don't have the luxury to spend hero slots on Engineers like dwarfs. I also agree that he should have better BS. That a champ can out shoot a hero.

State Troops being cheaper than clan rats will never happen
"Three things make The Empire great Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder!                                       Magnus the Pious

Offline Blauer Nebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2009, 08:15:23 AM »
Which is good, I think. I don't want Empire to be a horde army.

I always saw Empire to be equivocal to Imperial Guard. You can take a lot, sure, and have a lot of troops, or you can outfit the army to be more elite. Lots of room for customization. The under-dog factor is really appealing, too, having to use a lot more strategy to get the job done. Unfortunately, with the new IG Codex, any idiot can win with that army now, but that's another topic altogether...

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2009, 09:28:07 AM »
There's a gap there.

Strategy is a good thing, but what's the point when other armies can inflict enough casualties to swing a combat even against the benefit of detachment charges, full ranks and full command with war banner?

The higher the power level of the army you're facing, the greater the work you have to put in to win. If you're a vastly superior General that's okay. If you're of moderately equal ability then it's a struggle, and if you're inferior then there's little hope. Meanwhile the opponent has an easy time of it.
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian

Offline Blauer Nebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2009, 10:19:23 AM »
Oh, I agree. Problem is, as seen with 40K (where I have more experience), instead of toning down armies over time, they keep making them better and better. Like current MMOs. Instead of their being a player-skill component, it's just who (i.e., what class) gets the next upgrade or who (i.e., player) has the best gear. Eventually it boils over until even Empire will have a flock of dragons and a naval enfillade spotter to drop D3 mortar rounds from off-table if he doesn't move the round before...

Although, that'd be kinda' cool. The ship firing onto the table, I mean (not the dragons - they blow).

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2009, 10:40:50 AM »
I know that, I play Space Wolves.

October will be good.
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian

Offline Blauer Nebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2009, 10:43:42 AM »
I've never been a Space Wolves fan, but I'm a Black Templar, so I might get the new SW Codex anyway. Maybe do a counts-as if they have the appropriate units to make Black Templars out of (5th Edition reamed BT so goddamned hard I can't bring myself to send them into the fray against anyone, even Sisters!).

Offline Gorthac

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2009, 10:52:46 AM »
Guys, back to WFB and how to fix the engineer, please  :icon_neutral:
Quote from: PhillyT
Pigeon bombs annihilate the enemy from afar while the Engineer rubs his beard and nods his head in a sagely fashion.

Phil

Offline DaCone2

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2009, 02:13:36 PM »
I think leave the engineer's stats as they are but give him some slightly different special rules. Roughly the same pts too.

Can you imagine actually facing a BS5 helblaster? Average 16-18 shots per turn hitting large targets on 2+ at long range? ( assuming 18, thats 15 hits )

I think the best way to get around this is like smashthedean said and make it so that he can have more accurate weapons. ( he'd keep the better quality / more precise tools for himself wouldn't he? ) Make it so that for 5 pts he gets +1 to hit with any missile weapon thats not artillery.


For special rules i think it'd be cool if there were things like:

Cannons / Mortars within 6 inches of him get to re-roll one artillery dice ( as if he was with them currently )

Armywise it might be interesting it he made a unit of outriders core, or maybe make it so that you can have 0-1 set of 2 cannons / mortars that count as one special choice. That'd free up some a special slot for things that aren't artillery  :icon_biggrin:

It'd also be cool if they made it so that if you had an engineer, you could get some of the more outlandish stuff as rare choices. The book mentions "Hugon's Terror Bell" and a "Thunder Barrel"

Finally make it so that there was a small list of engineer specific weapons for extra cost, i.e. more random stuff that only he really knows how it works. Or perhaps make it so that 0-1 unit of handgunners gets more accurate weapons for x pts per model? People have suggested chain cannonballs, to simplify it, how about that it can hit 2 per rank rather than just 1? How about Chain Mortars using the normal guess but S4, small template and that fire 3 shots that from original position? There must be loads of ideas out there?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 02:16:57 PM by DaCone2 »

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2009, 12:44:33 PM »
Or what about an engineer that actually makes a differance in the game?

I wouldn't mind seeing like if you take an engineer he has the option of buying an artillery piece that can be taken as a "mount" for him or something. I mean that at least would be cool.
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2009, 01:01:13 PM »
Or what about an engineer that actually makes a differance in the game?

I wouldn't mind seeing like if you take an engineer he has the option of buying an artillery piece that can be taken as a "mount" for him or something. I mean that at least would be cool.

Something like a mechanical horse, then ?
Have one  on Midaski's tab.  :::cheers:::
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Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2009, 10:33:11 AM »
No like if you take an engineer then he can take a great cannon included as a single hero
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline The Dice-Shaman

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2009, 06:43:20 AM »
at 20 points, no hero slot, as unit upgrade... I might reconsider EVER fielding one in my armies...

Looks like the best idea so far to me now that Skaven can do that exact thing with their master moulders.

Think about it, the handgunner unit champ sucks as bad as the Eng. Hero counterpart! I take outriders and give the champ the longrifle if I want something sniped. So make Eng. available to H-guns and artillary as upgrades sounds great and fair considering the trend-evidence now available.
If your Speculum falls into a river of lava, don't reach in after it.  It's already gone bro...

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2009, 08:56:59 AM »
Reiterate:  4 levels of engineer character, unit champion, journeyman/ artillerytech, hero, lord (whatever he actually gets called).

Have unit buff skills and technologies available to the army through the engineers guild, 

Lots of other threads have come up with brilliant ideas that could be engineer based unlockable rule concepts like grenadoes, defensive works, offensive works, etc.

"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2009, 11:40:18 AM »
How does one get offensive works. . .

(flashback of braveheart, pitching the battle field before the battle)
We could make traps of the game, like make a random hill explode before the game starts and everything on or within so far takes d6 s6 with no save whatso ever and then we can have a unit of griffon riders and a wolfship that fires from off the board. . .
Oh wait thats 40k. my bad.
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2009, 12:52:25 AM »
rather more extreme than I was thinking but basically right, think field preparations that act like magic spells, or artillery.  Generally explodey though :Ohmy:

Also chart the battlefield for artillery, hows that for an engineers skill that mirrors real life.  Yes I actually am allowed to use a tape measure for this game :smile2:
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2009, 04:54:05 AM »
Lol nice ideas..

Gridding the battle field out will be kinda cool, like into four quarters and then the engineer allows us a second guess with the guess ranges. . .
Woah that would be awesome. I'm thinking if we went down that road then we would need to pay dearly.
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2009, 06:36:18 PM »
built into the cost of our currently overpriced and under performing engineers.  This would also be part of the reason for four different levels of engineer class characters.  Their different skills. I think only the hero and lord class characters would have access to the table gridding skill but other skills that mimic magic could be accessable to the others through the Schola bellator table. 
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Skyros

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2009, 03:30:49 PM »
Currently I see no reason to take an engineer.

Raising his BS is an obvious and sensible move, but it still wouldn't be enough for me to take the engineer.

If he could re-roll any misfire for any warmachine on the map, once per turn, I might consider it, in a warmachine heavy list. Maybe if he could let you take 2x mortars or cannons for 1x special slot...!

Jaeton

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2009, 05:05:31 PM »
I tend to stick to the policy of keeping things simple and use rules that allready exist in the warhammer world.  Remember how hard it was to explain to an opponent the old steam tank rules (even though I liked them!).

A combination of what has been said prior I think is in order.
The empire engineer should I.M.O. stay as a hero option, they are not dime a dozen characters.  They are rare and special individuals (in the use lots of explosives special way).  I feel his points are appropriate but he needs to bring more of a benefit.  The lets all cannons and mortars within 6" re-roll the first artilery dice is a great idea, we can call it artilery train and I think there was a rule similar to this way back when.  You get the benefit of re-rolls for your mortars and cannons but only by clumping them together so there is balance there. 

The option for heavy armor I'm not a fan of, the guy is a scholar who likes guns not a battle hardened veteran.  The weapon options listed earlier by " NAME "was a good list I don't think we need a million new guns (he is a nifty hero who does not need an entire 4 pages dedicated to crazy rules and weapons).  I don't like the idea of him making entire units better, or the changing of the army structure to make units core.  He is not and should not be a lord, he should fill the role of artilery support at the cost of a hero slot and be able to purchase a cannon/mortar as a mount. like mwalsh suggested (perhaps at slightly reduced cost.)


He can also have the special rule:
Helmut von Openburger's long sighted tubular ocular enhancement spectacles or some other "fancy silly name" which grant the engineer +1 BS when firing missile weapons.  Note: artilery does not count as a missile weapon.

I could maybe see him being in the steam tank and permitting you to re-roll the steam die or +/- 1 to the die roll.  He would be able to shoot out of the top when not in close combat and would die with the steam tank and not be able to dismount from it.

I think we need small elegant changes not super zaney ideas!  my 2 cents.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2009, 10:12:55 PM »
I agree, its not so much new ideas to make the empire great against all the new fangled power armies out there.

Its just simple tweaks.
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline Jayv

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2009, 07:41:31 PM »
I'd probably take engineers if they were BS5, 15-25 points cheaper and 2 for 1 Hero choices. I have no idea what GW were thinking with BS4...
Double Ones

Offline Generalisimo

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2009, 09:27:22 PM »
In my view :closed-eyes:, engineer is just fine the way he is right now (maybe Bs 5 would be better)
But he should not be a hero, he could be something like 0-1 engineers for 1000points and 0-2 for 2000points. Something like the priests for the imperial guard (40000). Taking an artillery piece as a mount is also a really nice idea  :happy:

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #72 on: December 23, 2009, 12:04:13 AM »
As a more heretical idea, why not make the Engineer a subset of the Captain and General unit, with individual abilities available for upgrade, alongside similar ones. Not all technical heroes are from the College of Engineers after all. Playing a trickster-type, a "ye olde James Bonde" with rapier and clockwork grenade, would be a riot.

"Maxwell. Otto Maxwell."

Offline Grutch

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2010, 08:07:53 PM »
After reading through the ideas I have to say I'm still pretty settled with what I opened with. 

BS5 - Which he can use while crewing war machines

Affects all warmachines on the table with 1 free reroll per turn.

Second Reroll is granted to a warmachine he is crewing.

Can bring along a warmachine up to 100 points.  (limiting this to cannons and mortars)  Great idea!

45 points.

Considering the Book Power creep we have been experiencing,  this is not asking for too much.

While I leaned toward the heavy armor option I'd still have to say no.  It doesnt fit his fluff.  I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of armor upgrade in his engineering item lists like an experimental clockwork shield or armor...

Jaeton's well thought out ideas are interesting but I think the Tank has its own master engineer crewing it already, and his changes in regards to the tank should stay in that category.   Also giving +1 to missile weapons besides machines is another thing I'm not keen on. 

It has already been addressed, but if your engineer is going to crew a helblaster, that's a lot of precious eggs in one basket, that can kill him as well on a misfire.  True it will be a deadly combo but there are much worse combos in warhammer than this for cheaper and they don't blow themselves up.

-Grutch



Offline sooti

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Re: Engineer 8.0
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2010, 03:04:27 AM »
I completely disagree with BS5.

I doubt a man of education tinking with steamtanks, helblasters, mortars, pidgeon bombs, steam powered horses etc would have enough time to train in ballistics to the point where he is better than a 300 year old Elven archer.

I also beleive engineers shouldnt exist in the games. All warmachine crews would have had extensive training in their machine. They should be good enough to handle them without an engineer. In the case of an engineer needing to man a machine, then that should be the case and it shouldnt offer any real bonuses nor should it be optional. Hes there because he has to be.