home

Author Topic: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time  (Read 139670 times)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (20/12/14)
« Reply #150 on: December 24, 2014, 01:59:15 PM »
And how exactly is he going to try every wizard in the Empire?! Can he even do that? Considering the Colleges of Magic were founded by his most successful precedessor aside from Sigmar himself.....

Don't worry: all will be revealed! It is a literal quote from the Sons of Sigmar, but, of course, very succinct. However, the story is not actually developed any further in any WFRP2 source books (as far as I know), but more details can be found in WFRP1 "Realms of Sorcery" (where the theft actually happens in the final days of Dieter IV).

Now there is a very good chance that Mathias and Matheus are the same Emperor but with strange conflicting tales from various WHFRP sources spread over many years (many still in the first edition)

Yes, I will be working on the assumption that Mathias and Matheus are the same (if I ever get that far). Admittedly, my main reason is congruence with the history of the HRE.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (20/12/14)
« Reply #151 on: January 21, 2015, 01:59:52 PM »
The Second Campaign against Marienburg (continued)

The available funds would last only for a relatively short time. Marienburg, clearly involved in the theft and now supported by Bretonnia, would undoubtedly try and sit the siege out, until the money had run out. This put the current strategy in jeopardy, and the various options that presented themselves were discussed in the War Council.

  • Storm the city. Marienburg was unlikely to withstand an all out assault, and plundering the city would bring in large amounts of cash in the short term. This was opposed, on principle, by Wilhelm III, because in the longer term the economy of the Empire would suffer more. It was also opposed by those Elector Counts with significant interests in Marienburg, who would stand to lose their investments.
  • Try to make up for the losses by raising extra taxes. This was opposed by all the Elector Counts, who argued there was no guarantee that money would not disappear too. Some even had their private suspicions that the Emperor himself might have embezzled the treasures. After all, the tale was too incredible!
  • Abandon the siege for a negotiated settlement.

After long and heated discussion, the last option prevailed, not because it was the best, or even the least worst, but because it did not invoke a veto from one side or another. 

Marienburg too was eager to negotiate. Food supplies were low, the Bretonnian relieve attempt had failed, and the Directorate knew something very important about the lost treasures the Empire did not. As neither side wanted to allow the opponent in its camp, the negotiations were held on boats on the Mannaanspoort Sea. 


1. The negotiations on the Mannaanspoort Sea





1. Diebold Schilling, Die Amtliche Berner Chronik II, p.273 (1483), Mss.h.h.I.2, Burgerbibliothek, Bern.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 08:51:54 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (20/01/15)
« Reply #152 on: January 28, 2015, 05:39:35 PM »
As a result of the negotiations, the two sides concluded the Ewige Richtung (Eternal Compact), which, in spite of its name, had to be renewed every 10 years. The Emperor and Marienburg agreed to end hostilities for now and the future.   The treaty had no consequences for the legal status of any claims to existing rights or privileges. However, the Emperor agreed not to try himself nor to support any attempt by others to enforce these rights except through peaceful means.  Procedures were therefore set up to settle future disputes between the Empire and Marienburg in a peaceful manner.  All Imperial troops and garrisons would be withdrawn from Westerland. Marienburg would support the Empire in case of war with third parties – for a fee; and the Empire would support Marienburg in case of war with a third party – also for a fee. Imperial ships could only pass through Marienburg under strict conditions and heavy tolls. The treaty also laid out the framework for a trade and customs agreement, the details of which were the subject of further negotiations, and which turned out to be quite advantageous for the Empire.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 09:26:41 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Zygmund

  • Pure of Heart
  • Posts: 2204
  • Europe, Finland
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (28/01/15)
« Reply #153 on: January 29, 2015, 12:24:07 PM »
Use the terrain for your advantage. (Water)

Make sure you can tolerate some losses. (Early battles outside the walls)

Force the enemy to tie its troops. (Accept a siege)

Make others die for you. (Bretonnians)

Hit the enemy where it hurts. (Treasury)

Act strong especially when weak. (Peace negotiations)

And you shall be victorious.

The Art of War by a Marienburger general?

-Z
Forget the 6'x4' game, focus on the story beyond that. Because fantasy matters.

Offline Baron von Klatz

  • Posts: 1698
  • warhammer> All other works of mankind
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (28/01/15)
« Reply #154 on: January 29, 2015, 09:46:27 PM »
Make others die for you.

The Art of War by a Marienburger general

-Z

I think this might be more accurate. :-P
"No battle is ever meaningless for all life is merely death post-poned"
-elector count of the Empire.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (20/12/14)
« Reply #155 on: January 30, 2015, 11:11:34 PM »
The Second Campaign against Marienburg (continued)

There was, of course, still the matter of the stolen treasure. The Directorate denied any involvement, but observed cryptically that, according to their information, the treasure had not been stolen - it had just “disappeared”.  Taking this hint, Wilhelm III requested the Council of the Patriarchs to conduct a thorough investigation of the Treasury, which finally discovered the presence of a complex and powerful, but carefully hidden spell. When the spell of illusion was lifted, it became clear that the treasure had never left the Imperial Treasury.a The investigation also revealed that the spell, probably High Elf in origin, was too complex to last very long, and would have dissipated in due course in any case.
The initial relief over the re-found treasure soon made way for a feeling of having been conned. Negotiating with Marienburg now seemed a somewhat hasty decision, leading to an argument between within the Imperial Concil. This was followed by a second row between the Emperor and the Electors over the further use of the money. At the insistence of the Elector Counts, all funds earmarked for the campaign against Marienburg but not yet spent was refunded to them.

However advantageous the treaty, there was no hiding the fact that the Empire had suffered a strategic defeat, and the reputation of Wilhelm III had been diminished. Marienburg, interested in trade relations, did not want to add insult to injury, but Bretonnia had no such qualms.  In its version of the events, the Bretonnian involvement was greatly exaggerated/distorted in order to press their claim over Marienburg. 


1.

This miniature from the Croniques de Bretonnie, l’Empire, l'Estalie, Tilea et lieux circunvoisins is a kind of pictorial summary of Bretonnian propaganda: in the background, the Lady, as symbol of Bretonnia, rises protectively (and possessively!!) over the besieged Marienburg. In the foreground, Bretonnian (under the Lion banner) and Imperial forces (under the Imperial Eagle) clash, while King Charles himself defeats Emperor Wilhelm III in hand to hand combat. Note how Charles is depicted much bigger than Wilhelm.


a. After inventory, it did, in fact, turn out that choice selection of treasure was missing. This was generally attributed to the illusionists helping themselves to some extra payment for their crime.


1. From the Vergilius in the library of Raphaël de Mercatellis (Brugge, 1488), Ms. 9, fol. 244v. St-Baafskathedraal, Gent.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 08:53:48 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (31/01/15)
« Reply #156 on: February 07, 2015, 12:19:19 AM »
Of course, someone had to take the blame for this strategic defeat. Dietrich von Bernau took his share of responsibility and resigned from the post of Reichsmarschall. This selfless act served only to increase further the sincere indignation of Wilhelm III over the conduct of Vincent of Bogenhafen, whom he accused of wilfully sabotaging the campaign. As Supreme Patriarch, he had withheld the support of the Colleges of Magic on dubious legalistic grounds; and surely, it was no coincidence that it had been Grey Wizards who had hidden the funds for the campaign. He gave Vincent and all the Wizards of the Grey Order an ultimatum: swear an oath of allegiance to the Emperor and the Empire, or be arrested and handed over to the infinite mercy of the Inquisition. Any opposition was quickly stifled, after after the Grey College in Salzenmund was burnt to the ground by a angry mob, accusing the Grey Wizards of treachery. Real violence remained limited to Salzenmund (perhaps because of Nordland's  had the bst claim on Marienburg), but there was a strong feeling of betrayal throughout the Empire. Most of the Grey Wizards could not swear the oath fast enough. Only a small minority either left the Empire, or went into hiding, causing rumours of a secret organisation, the College of Lugenheim (Home of Lies), with links to the Cult of Ranald the Deceiver.a
Over the years, the Grey Order would become one of the pillars of the Emperor’s spy network: in recognition, they were given the title “Grey Guardians”, and each Wizard was handed a Sword of Judgement as symbol of the licence to kill in the service of the Empire.


1. Vincent von Bogenhafen offering the affidavits of the Grey Wizards to Wilhelm III.






a. Based on WFRP 1, Realms of Sorcery, p. 56
1. Diebold Schilling, Die Amtliche Berner Chronik I, p.106 (1483), Mss.h.h.I.1, Burgerbibliothek, Bern.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 08:56:15 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (07/02/15)
« Reply #157 on: February 16, 2015, 11:09:44 PM »
Digression: Rudolf von Erlach

To illustrate the events in the following chapter, we will use the Erlacher Chronik, which was  published in 2484/5. The Erlachs were a noble family in possession of the town of Erlach, in the south-west corner of the Wasteland (see map above),  and known for its gold mines. It was Rudolf of Erlach who commissioned this historiography, to glorify himself and his family. At the time of the commission, he had risen to become Staadthouder of Marienburg, indeed, he first Staadthouder not to belong to one of the Great Families. This caused some resentment in certain quarters , and, in all probability, the Erlacher Chronik was intended to strengthen his position by underscoring the achievements of the Erlachs for Marienburg throughout the ages.

Not surprisingly, the Chronik is introduced by Rudolf’s Wappentafel: around the central coat of arms of Rudolf of Erlach the blazons of his female ancestors, emphasising his national and international background.

1.


1. Bottom right (heraldic left): Adelheid Haller van Rothemuur (one of the Great Families), wife of Petermann von Erlach (Rudolf’s mother and father).
2. Bottom left: Margaretha de Grasgar, wife of Johann von Erlach (Rudolf’s grandmother and grandfather). The Bretonnian Grasgar family was related to the Dukes of l’Anguille. During the Errantry Wars, the Grasgar died out in the main line, and Grasgar Castle fell to those same Dukes of  l’Anguille, who used it as a hunting lodge, until Duke Taubert made it his main castle and transformed it into a formidable fortification.
3. Top right: Anna de Roelef (one of the Great Families), wife of Ulrich II von Erlach (Rudolf’s great-grandmother and great-grandfather).
4. Top left: N.N. von Kluck (originally Glück, i.e. Luck, hence the shamrock); wife of Burkhart von Erlach, second son of Ulrich I, first Castellan of Erlach. The Counts of Kluck belonged to the High Nobility of the Empire, and Alexander of Kluck led the third Marienburg Campaign. As we shall see, the inclusion of this great-great-grandmother is no accident, but serves to emphasise the loyalty of the Erlach family to Marienburg.
 
At the top, there is an acronym, I A E L, which is usually read as In alto est lux (On high, there is light). Some scholars, referring to Marienburg's trade and commerce, have suggested In alto est lucrum (There is profit on the high sea). However, if we consider the fact that the Erlach wealth was primarily based on their gold mines, the interpretation In auraria est lucrum (There is profit in a goldmine) seems more likely.

In summary, the Wappentafel  depicts on the one (right) hand the Erlach blood relations with the Great Families, and on the left those with Bretonnia and the Empire, the three elements Marienburg’s wealth depended on.



1. Diebold Schilling, Spiezer Chronik , p.29 (1484/5), Mss.h.h.I.16, Burgerbibliothek, Bern
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 08:58:22 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (17/02/15)
« Reply #158 on: February 17, 2015, 11:52:12 PM »
Next, the Staadthouder and his family are depicted.

1. Rudolf von Erlach, holding the Erlach coat of arms, with his sons Burkhart and Johann.
 


1. Diebold Schilling, Spiezer Chronik , p.30 (1484/5), Mss.h.h.I.16, Burgerbibliothek, Bern
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 08:59:46 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline steveb

  • Posts: 4624
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (18/02/15)
« Reply #159 on: February 18, 2015, 09:19:59 PM »
Have you seen the Breughel figures where they sculpted figures from painting like these, like the newlywed couple in fron of a bulls eye mirror?  steveb

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (18/02/15)
« Reply #160 on: February 18, 2015, 10:15:43 PM »
I have now.  :icon_wink:
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (18/02/15)
« Reply #161 on: February 18, 2015, 11:24:15 PM »
Digression: Rudolf von Erlach (continued)a


1.

Rudolf’s first wife,  Barbara von Praroman, and daughters. The two girls in the back are maidservants, their smaller size indicating their lesser status. While not one of the Great Houses, the Praroman family still held a prominent position in Marienburg, thanks to the wealth from their renowned glassworks. There has been much scholarly debate about the the Praroman coat of arms, whose emblem is the carcasses  of a fish. There is no known Praroman connection to fishing or fish processing. Various scholars identify the carcasses as those of the Grey Barbed Shark (vulgo "Stromfels' Kitty"), symbol of the banned Cult of Stromfels. Those scholars that accept this identification still disagree about the meaning: some think that the symbol implies adherence to the banned cult, others that the carcasses of a dead shark rather indicates the opposite.



a. The pictures are those of the historical Rudolf of Erlach (1448-1507) and his family. Rudolf, a Swiss noble and politician, held a number of civil and military positions for the city of Bern, including from 1479-1507 (with intermissions) the function of Mayor of Bern.

1. Diebold Schilling, Spiezer Chronik , p.31 (1484/5), Mss.h.h.I.16, Burgerbibliothek, Bern
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 09:00:55 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (19/02/15)
« Reply #162 on: February 21, 2015, 12:06:46 AM »
The Third Campaign against Marienburg

The Eternal Compact was soon to be put to the test. Bretonnia expected to be rewarded for her services, and Marienburg accepted that Fort Bregbes would be run jointly with agents appointed by the Duc du Gisoreux. This combination quickly turned chivalry into chicanery and corruption. As a Marienburg travel guide noted: "Travellers more often refer to Fort Bergbres as "Fort Beg-Bribe" since getting anything done requires a 'donation' of guilders or Bretonnian gold sous to the proper official. Upstanding merchants who object to the practice find themselves buried under mountains of paperwork and subjected to excruciatingly slow inspections. Most put up with this only once and thereafter pay the price and pass the cost on to the customer.”1
Bernhard von Gilgenberg, too, had to pay for his loyalty to the Empire by being forced from his lands, as Marienburg ceased Tancred Castle to the Duke of Couronne.

This caused considerable apprehension in the Empire. In response, the Emperor directed the High Court to speedily investigate and settle the various claims disputes over the inheritance of the last baron of Westerland, Paulus van der Maacht. As a result, the claim of the Nordland Elector was validated.  Of course, this was not too well received by the Directorate of Marienburg.

1. WFRP 1 Marienburg Sold Down the River, p. 10.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (21/02/15)
« Reply #163 on: February 23, 2015, 11:58:22 PM »
[Note: I am in two minds about  the order between the events of the second and third campaign, as reversing them may perhaps be more logical. I would be grateful for any comments or opinions on this issue, later on]

Things came to ahead, when Wilhelm van den Nijmenk, the Arch-Lectora of Marienburg, was murdered in bed by his barber Merlet. The motive for this crime remains a mystery to this day. His murderer was quickly apprehended by the Marienburg authorities, sentenced to death, tortured with hot pokers and then quartered. However, the speed of apprehension, trial and execution raised suspicions of a cover-up. Arch-Lector Wilhelm had always taken a conciliatory stance, arguing for a peaceful solution, but had been equally unwavering in his loyalty to the Church of Sigmar. His word carried weight, not just because he was from a Great Family. His death was a severe blow to the sizeable minority that rejected full Marienburg independence.

1. Crime and punishment of Merlet.
 





a. According to WFRP 1 Marienburg Sold Down the River, p. 47, there is an Arch-Lector of Marienburg, although, since independence, the Grand Theogonists have declared the seat vacant. I have always found it unlikely that there would be only two Arch-Lectors in the Empire. In the German speaking part of the HRE around 1500, there were six archdioceses. In this History, I will assume that the Grand-Theogonist is also the Arch-Lector of Altdorf and that Marienburg is, in the terminology of the Catholic Church, sedes vacans in partibus infidelium (a vacant see in the lands of the unbelievers), thus bringing the total number to four, without contradicting existing fluff. 

1. Diebold Schilling, Spiezer Chronik , p.548 (1484/5), Mss.h.h.I.16, Burgerbibliothek, Bern
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 07:52:22 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline S.O.F

  • Posts: 2919
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (21/02/15)
« Reply #164 on: February 24, 2015, 01:11:11 PM »
a. According to WFRP 1 Marienburg Sold Down the River, p. 47, there is an Arch-Lector of Marienburg, although, since independence, the Grand Theogonists have declared the seat vacant. I have always found it unlikely that there would be only two Arch-Lectors in the Empire. In the German speaking part of the HRE around 1500, there were six archdioceses. In this History, I will assume that the Grand-Theogonist is also the Arch-Lector of Altdorf and that Marienburg is, in the terminology of the Catholic Church, sedes vacans in partibus infidelium (a vacant see in the lands of the unbelievers), thus bringing the total number to four, without contradicting existing fluff. 

Hmmm interesting thought. I think I can go with that in truth there are three Arch Lectors and that the Grand Theogonist is also the Arch Lector of Altdorf though that does raise some questions. Being as the Imperial capital moves the Theogonist has as well to be near the Imperial Court and also in the first millennium the Grand Theogonist was based in Nuln for a good part of it, perhaps the title is not as linked to a single see or more likely that the Cult reformed it dioceses after Magnus the Pious's reunification. Side note as I've just checked one of the side bars in Tome of Salvation and the Grand Theogonist does also carry an Arch-Lector title though it is put as Arch-Lector of the West which sounds stupid and that of Altdorf sounds much better.

I do find it hard for Marienburg to have an Arch-Lector though but much of this is based on WHFRP 2 info. The Sigmarite Cult is said to have 2(3) Arch-Lectors and 18 Lectors, which is a nice break down of 6 Bishops under each Arch Bishop (There are also 16 Capitularies, 4 High and 12 normal,  which are special dioceses linked to holy sites or special regions in which circumvent the Cult normal feudal hierarchy and send their tithes directly to the Cult via the Grand Theogonist). If Marienburg had an Arch-Lector beyond a poor breakdown of the dioceses from there there is also not much geography for said Arch-Lector to be the spiritual lord. Much of Middenland and even Nordland are not heavily invested in Sigmarite dioceses, Middenheim fall under the Nordland High Capitular's jurisdiction which in turn means that this region is answerable only to the Grand Theogonist and not attatched to any Arch-Lectorate. 

The other note is that outside the bounds of the Empire Cult of Sigmar dioceses are headed by Theogonists with generally little regard to the actually level in which they govern. I don't think in the wake of Marienburg's secession the Cult would have named the see vacant but would have renamed the position. The stubborn nature of the Cult though would make me think that appointments were made under the proper title but that the Directorate instead names their own Lector under the title Theogonist of Westerland or some such.
Soldier of Fortune
Crazy DOW player
Rabid Mets Fan

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (24/02/15)
« Reply #165 on: February 25, 2015, 10:12:43 AM »
Thank you for the points you raised. There do not seem too many WFRP 2 sources with a bit more detail on the Sigmarite Church in the Wasteland. And, as so often, WFRP 3 seems to have the least details of all. That is why I made due of WFRP 1: as said, the remarks regarding the AL of Marienburg are based on Marienburg - Sold Down the River. Here, the Church of Sigmar has split after independence, between, on the one hand, the Uniates (or Orthodox), loyal to the Grand Theogonist, and  on the other hand, the Reformed Church, loyal to the Directorate, which appoints the AL. The Uniates, mainly based around Kalkaat, are headed by a Lector, as the Grand Theogonists have declared the AL seat vacant.

The existence of AL is Marienburg may not be that improbable. The organisation of the Roman Catholic Church still bears the traces of  2000 years of history, to the extent that, even today, there are titular bishops and archbishops of cities conquered by Islam almost 1500 years ago.  As we have discussed earlier in this thread, Westerland and Nordland seem at one point to have been one big Electorate, and the Arch Lectorate in Marienburg would be another remnant of that original Electorate. It could have been responsible for Middenheim too, but would have lost that jurisdiction after the division of the original Province.

Given that the Church of Sigmar was founded by Johann Helstrum in Reikdorf (later Altdorf), one really should expect an Arch Lector of Altdorf, even if the capital moved later to a different city. I should not think it a problem, if the Grand Theogonist still held the title/function of Arch Lector of Altdorf, even if he resided elsewhere. There is a historical precedent in the Babylonian Captivity (1309 to 1377), when the Popes resided in Avignon, but were, of course, still Bishop of Rome and Archbishops and Metropolitan of the Roman Province. More recently, there is the example of the Patriarch/Archbishop of Pec (the head of the Serbian Orthodox Church) who has never resided in Pec itself, since the Patriarchate was re-established in 1920. 

Speaking about Patriarchs, I suppose that “Arch Lector of the West” is inspired by “Patriarch of the West”, an old title of the Pope (but since 2006 no longer in official use). The title made sense in the Christian world, but does not really fit in the Warhammer world.

I wonder what  the description in the ToS of the role of theogonists “who control Sigmarite concerns in foreign lands” actually means. Are they comparable to papal nuntii? Perhaps not, as Theogonist Gregori Sorgher of Kislev, the high priest responsible for cult affairs in Kislev, is working from Altdorf.  On the other hand, he might still be “in exile” after the Storm of Chaos. 
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Noble Korhedron

  • Posts: 1273
  • Empire General
    • www.facebook.com/rtedders
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (24/02/15)
« Reply #166 on: February 25, 2015, 11:25:25 AM »
@Fidelis: The singular form is "papal nuncio", so wouln't the plural be ''nuncii''? Also, just because an area was conquered by Islam 1500 years ago doesn't mean it had no more Christians left, e.g. the Holy Land from c. 1400 onwards. When they weren't invading your territory, medieval Muslims were nearly more tolerant than their more modern counterparts - at least when it came to other Abrahamaic faiths...

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (24/02/15)
« Reply #167 on: February 25, 2015, 12:43:46 PM »
The plural of the English nuncio is nuncios. However, I used the Latin nuntius, pl. nuntii (which I should have put in in Italics).
Regarding the second point: I am talking about defunct dioceses, which live on in name. Not all dioceses ceased to exist, even when conquered - but they ipso facto do not fall into the category of titular dioceses. Most of the titular (arch)dioceses are in North-Africa, the Near East and the Balkans. In most cases, these dioceses did not disappear immediately. For instance, the last reference to the diocese of Carthage (conquered in 698) as a residential see was in 1053.  After all, it took about 500 years, before the Muslims became a majority in the territories they had conquered (which was not a uniform process in time or place). More recently, there are even titular dioceses from Europe and America, which have disappeared as part of re-organisations etc.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline S.O.F

  • Posts: 2919
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (24/02/15)
« Reply #168 on: February 25, 2015, 01:42:34 PM »
The existence of AL is Marienburg may not be that improbable. The organisation of the Roman Catholic Church still bears the traces of  2000 years of history, to the extent that, even today, there are titular bishops and archbishops of cities conquered by Islam almost 1500 years ago.  As we have discussed earlier in this thread, Westerland and Nordland seem at one point to have been one big Electorate, and the Arch Lectorate in Marienburg would be another remnant of that original Electorate. It could have been responsible for Middenheim too, but would have lost that jurisdiction after the division of the original Province.

Possibly true and perhaps before the Civil Wars much of the north were properly part of the Sigmarite Cults system but after the reunification in deference to the Ulrican Cult, dioceses with little to no Sigmarite followers but only titular heads were dropped and for the relations between cults much of the north put under a High Capitular. The other problem I failed to mention before though is that I'd find it odd that if there were four Arch-Lectors why would only one be left out of gaining Electoral status? Of course one could argue that Marienburg, unlike Nuln and Talbheim was not on Magnus the Pious rally the Empire tour and thus not as connected to the Emperor or that as Magnus offered Elector status to both the Ar-Ulric and the High Priest of Taal (the latter declining) that it was an attempt at being more even than giving all Arch Lectors such status. I mean being that if we look at the HRE example half the Arch Bishops of the German speaking part were Electors. Who knows really, I think your current interpretation is just fine and this is more an interesting discussion of it.

Quote
Given that the Church of Sigmar was founded by Johann Helstrum in Reikdorf (later Altdorf), one really should expect an Arch Lector of Altdorf, even if the capital moved later to a different city. I should not think it a problem, if the Grand Theogonist still held the title/function of Arch Lector of Altdorf, even if he resided elsewhere. There is a historical precedent in the Babylonian Captivity (1309 to 1377), when the Popes resided in Avignon, but were, of course, still Bishop of Rome and Archbishops and Metropolitan of the Roman Province. More recently, there is the example of the Patriarch/Archbishop of Pec (the head of the Serbian Orthodox Church) who has never resided in Pec itself, since the Patriarchate was re-established in 1920. 

Hmmm I wonder if this is another point of inconsistency between WHFRP sources. Forges of Nuln I know states the Sigmarite Cult was founded in Nuln by Helstrum and it has the oldest Sigmarite Cathedral in the Empire. Altdorf became the more powerful seat after the Grand Theogonist began to pursue more secular power during the time of the Drakwald Emperors, spending more time in Altdorf (sometimes capital/closer to Carroburg).

Quote
I wonder what  the description in the ToS of the role of theogonists “who control Sigmarite concerns in foreign lands” actually means. Are they comparable to papal nuntii? Perhaps not, as Theogonist Gregori Sorgher of Kislev, the high priest responsible for cult affairs in Kislev, is working from Altdorf.  On the other hand, he might still be “in exile” after the Storm of Chaos.

I had thought that was due to the Storm of Chaos setting. After work I shall dig out Realm of the Ice Queen and see if there is any more information in there but I had thought it a position of roughly Lector level (the Theogonist of Kislev anyway) that oversaw appointments and the Cult in Kislev (large cities probably having Sigmarite Churches and smaller towns near the Imperial border perhaps having village priests).
Soldier of Fortune
Crazy DOW player
Rabid Mets Fan

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (24/02/15)
« Reply #169 on: February 25, 2015, 04:57:21 PM »
I do appreciate your comments! If possible, I want to remain close to the existing fluff, and any help to establish events and resolve contradictions is more than welcome.

Hmmm I wonder if this is another point of inconsistency between WHFRP sources. Forges of Nuln I know states the Sigmarite Cult was founded in Nuln by Helstrum and it has the oldest Sigmarite Cathedral in the Empire. Altdorf became the more powerful seat after the Grand Theogonist began to pursue more secular power during the time of the Drakwald Emperors, spending more time in Altdorf (sometimes capital/closer to Carroburg).

I had a look at the Forges of Nuln, and, if it is an inconsistency, it can be explained away. FoN p.6 explains how small Sigmarite cults were established in in the newer parts of Nuln. Helstrum then travels to Altdorf "and soon after, the cult of Sigmar received imperial recognition with an official temple in Altdorf. Back in Nuln, the smaller cells united and founded the first temple of Sigmar on the slopes of the hill holding the Count’s fortress." One could say, the cult was established in Nuln, the official Church in Altdorf. In addition, the reference to the first temple of Sigmar could be read as the first temple of Sigmar in Nuln, unless, of course, there is a reference elsewhere that it is the first in the Empire.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 05:54:07 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline steveb

  • Posts: 4624
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (24/02/15)
« Reply #170 on: February 25, 2015, 06:20:35 PM »
when are you going to cover the disaster that befell mordheim?  steveb

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (24/02/15)
« Reply #171 on: February 25, 2015, 06:48:59 PM »
Although several artworks immediately spring to mind (twin comet included) to illustrate the event, the destruction of Mordheim takes place in the year 2.000 [or 1.999, depending on the source], and thus outside the scope of this history. That said, it could perhaps be the subject of a digression in the future.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 06:54:08 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline steveb

  • Posts: 4624
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (24/02/15)
« Reply #172 on: February 25, 2015, 08:13:31 PM »
oh please digress, please.  I think that you would do an excellent job of "mixing"  Maybe start a second thread, could ask for people to create scratchbuilt figures/dioramas to match the painting/explanations-history that you come up with.  I know some breughel works have been done already but I am sure that you could expound upon this with considerable expertise as already demonstrated by this current thread.    steveb

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (24/02/15)
« Reply #173 on: February 25, 2015, 10:43:53 PM »
Thank you for your confidence. The idea of matching figures/diorama's certainly has its appeal. I cannot promise that it will happen soon, but I will keep it in mind.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9371
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (24/02/15)
« Reply #174 on: February 28, 2015, 12:30:22 AM »
The Third Campaign against Marienburg (continued)

Wilhelm van den Nijmenk was buried in the Marienburg Cathedral of Sigmar, which was closed by the Directorate shortly after the current events. The few that happen to enter by chance or design can still admirer this beautiful stained glass window over his tomb, depicting the Crosier as symbol of his office and his ecclesiastical coat of arms, combining the blazon of the Marienburg Archdiocese with the shells of the House of van Nijmenk. The dates given are those of his life in office.

1.




1. Coat of arms of Guillaume de Monthonay, Bishop of Lausanne, who was murdered in 1406, Château Saint-Maire, Lausanne (text modified).
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 07:53:45 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)