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Author Topic: Fighting like a Village Idiot: the TVI Tactica  (Read 1332 times)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Fighting like a Village Idiot: the TVI Tactica
« on: June 03, 2020, 10:15:43 PM »
In another thread, SirMixtus inquired about the TVI Detachment article. I suppose he meant the TVI Tactica, based on TVI, but written by Atchman. and it seems SirMixtus ended up empty-handed. As we all know, sadly, the WarRoom has not been available for years. I stumbled upon a Spanish (authorised) translation, and, for better or worse, decided to translate it back into English, in the hope that it may still be of use to someone. 

It is important to note that

1. this applies to the 7th edition BRB and AB
2. it is a translation of a translation. Therefore, it is not a verbatim copy of the original text, but I do believe that the original ideas have been faithfully rendered.


TVI TACTICA

Tim Walker aka “The Village Idiot” aka “TVI” was the winner of the Charlotte Grand Tourney in 2003. His playing style is unique in that he focuses on one of the strengths of the Empire: the Detachment rules.

"I think the number one strength of the Empire's army is the Detachment rule. This rule opens up tactical possibilities that other armies can only dream of. Unit by unit, if we engage an enemy infantry regiment with our Detachments intact, we are entering combat with a +5 resolution for ranks, flank, and outnumbering.” - TVI


The Battalion Concept

Many people wonder what a TVI list or an Empire battalion is like. It is a balanced way of playing with Empire. An Empire battalion consists of several elements.

Main units
 
“So, I set about designing my army: three large units of 30 Swordsmen, deployed 6 wide by 5 deep, make up the backbone. Each Swordsmen unit has 1 or 2 Detachments of Free Companies, 12 men strong deployed 6 wide by 2 deep”. - TVI

The main units can be any of the types of Empire infantry, but they usually consist of Swordsmen, Spearmen and Halberdiers. The most important thing for the main units is that they have to be large. A 25 or 30 man infantry unit is ideal as a main unit. This allows the unit to lose a significant number of models, before losing its valuable rank bonus. At the time of the "5 models wide" rule, the closer you get to unit strength 30 the better, especially since the Empire's troops have become cheaper.

As many people will already know, the best core unit for the Empire are Swordsmen. Spearmen are the next best unit, and Halberdiers are the worst by far. Spearmen and Halberdiers can be deployed with or without shields, but whenever you are facing a certain amount of missile units, they will be useful. It also means the Regiment can use hand weapon and shield, which is sometimes necessary, depending on the type of enemy we are facing.

Detachments

There are many options regarding Detachment size and type. There are several types of Detachments: combat Detachments, "speed bumps," and shooting Detachments.

The most traditional type of combat Detachment for TVI-style lists is the Detachment of 10 Fighters [Free Company]. Other people rely heavily on Swordsmen or Halberdiers for their Detachments, but, on a personal basis, I don't like them too much. Even Spearmen can function as a Detachment.

Shooting Detachments are also common. Small Archer units work well with a battalion-based list, protecting the most valuable main units and combat Detachments. Archer Detachments can also be used to march-block the enemy, providing you more time to manoeuvre.

Detachments of Crossbowmen and Handgunners are often found in an Empire battalion. The golden rule is to deploy them in such a way that no weak points are created in a line that would otherwise be strong. Since the TVI concept requires mobility for it to work, static shooting lines are not recommended. That means you need either to deploy your shooting Detachments on a nearby hill, put them in a single row and use them as additional Detachments for combat, or deploy them behind the main battle line to fire at enemy units that break through the line.

"Speed bump" Detachments are of minimum size, and minimum cost. These units are normally used to divert enemy units. Another use is to make them flee from enemy charges, forcing the opponent to move in such a way that Empire units can take advantage of his new position.

In the battalion concept, "speed bumbs" are often used to force an enemy unit to charge the main unit of your choice. The "speed bump" breaks and the enemy unit charges towards the chosen main unit. This will allow you to charge with a Detachment or a small unit of Knights. Then you can finish them off the next turn. This is a key characteristic of the TVI game style. Caution should be exercised in using a Detachment in this manner. In the rules of the 7th Warhammer edition, units that pursue into a fresh enemy can immediately fight again, if the “speed bump” has been destroyed.

Light Cavalry
 
“Each infantry unit and its Detachment has an designated 6 strong cavalry unit. Two units consist of Knightly Orders and one unit of White Wolves. These units consist of bare Knights, no Inner Circle, no champion, nor standard, only a musician to maintain order”. - TVI

“The function of the cavalry is to support the infantry; they will sacrifice themselves in order to keep enemy units away from potential flank charges against your troops (unless your unit is stubborn). They will not pursue enemy units, unless the infantry is completely safe from enemy activity. The knights will allow the infantry to fight, while they themselves will move to the proper position to charge the flank or rear of the unit held up by the infantry. They will sit tight and protect an exposed flank, before going after small objectives”. - TVI

"Light Cavalry" are generally just normal cavalry units with a musician and nothing else. They are one of the keys to making the battalion concept work. The idea of using Knights as a defensive or a counter-offensive force is new to most players. Redirection is the fundamental function of Light Cavalry. Many times an Empire unit will not be able to withstand the charge of Heavy Cavalry. In this case, the Knights move forward at an angle to divert the enemy unit away from the main unit. Again, you need be careful, because of the new rules. Some of these charges you will have to hold, to prevent the enemy from redirecting the charge.

One of the best uses of Light Cavalry is as a counter-offensive force. Part of the battalion concept is to allow your main units to be charged. Once the enemy is engaged in combat, the Light Cavalry charges into that combat to break the enemy, and then use their higher movement characteristic to catch the enemy.

Light Cavalry are an excellent reserve force. The threat from the knights is enough to make the opponent rethink a few things. An intact unit of Light Cavalry can make all the difference, when the game is about to end. Catching fleeing units, charging depleted units, guarding the flank of a main unit moving to a decisive encounter ... all these are functions of the Knights. You will rarely want to advance boldly with Light Cavalry. They will rarely break an enemy unit on the charge. However, they can easily destroy or hold up support units. Remember that the idea is to preserve your main units as long as possible. Some circumstances may force the Knights to press forward: to kill wizards, destroy light missile units, march-block or divert important enemy units away from your lines allowing your advance.

The TVI Philosophy

Elements of manoeuvre
 
1. “The army must have an infantry line of at least 6 manoeuvrable elements, that, when deployed, extends from one end of the battlefield to the other. This provides flank security, as there is no flank to position yourself on." - TVI

Having a solid line of infantry, cavalry and artillery, you will not have to worry about whether they will outflank you. Also the enemy has no choice but to expose himself to direct cannon fire, if he tries to breach your line at a single point. Since there are so many manoeuvrable elements (Detachments, small cavalry units, as well as main units), it is difficult for an enemy to focus only on one section of the line.

Some of the new rules have made this even easier. Empire armies commanded by an Arch-Lector can have up to three units of Flagellants. As part of the battalion concept, these units resist charges, keeping the enemy engaged, until the cavalry can flank him, and run him over. Sometimes I call this concept "descaling", because the enemies are being scaled off an Empire unit. Greatswords are no longer limited in number as special units. A battle standard bearer with the Banner of Sigismund is yet another unit that can easily withstand a charge. The reduction in points of the Empire troops, along with the "five wide rule" makes it even easier to occupy the battlefield from end to end.

2. “Every unit that is not part of the main line of infantry must support it; in other words, it must be designed to help the infantry, not to prowl around eliminating targets by themselves. " - TVI

Heroic cavalry charges designed to penetrate enemy lines are not part of this army. The cavalry, for example, is there to divert, counter-charge a enemy unit engaged in combat, or sacrifice itself so that the artillery has a good target once the unit is destroyed. The actions of the anchor units are also designed to focus the enemy on attacking large troop blocks, having simply no other choice. Eliminating these small units will rarely give the enemy victory. At some point they will have to attack at least one of the large blocks of troops to get enough victory points to win the game; a difficult, if not impossible task ...

Even artillery is used as a supporting instrument. They must focus on the targets that are a threat to your main units. If you have to choose between saving the artillery itself or protecting a combat battalion depending on the objective you choose, the artillery must sacrifice itself for the good of the army.

Normal missile units have a supporting role in an army based on the battalion concept. Sometimes due to the width of the imperial line, missile troops must deploy behind the army. If the opportunity arises, they will fire through the spaces left by the units on the main line. They will also target anything that tries to get around the line in order to counter-charge any of your units or cut off their withdrawal. Ideally, some of the shooters would be deployed on hills or flanks to improve support for the battle plan. However, remember that missile units are expendable; in fact, everything is expendable, except for the main infantry units (and even one of them is expendable, if this will protect the other two units).

3. “Magic is defensive, artillery is defensive, cavalry is defensive; it is the infantry line that does the killing. The infantry does this not by charging enemy units, but by being charged by enemy units and counter-charging with Detachments. ” - TVI

A) All magic is defensive and designed to protect the main battle force: the three infantry units. Dispel scrolls are rarely taken, since most missile-type spells won't deal that much damage to large regiments. In most cases, the new Rod of Power will suffice as magic protection. Armies commanded by an Arch-lector usually have already a substantial magical defence. However, care must be taken in saving dice for the really damaging spells, so some other spells should be allowed to pass.

B) The artillery is in the army to protect the power of the big regiments. Great Cannons, Mortars, and Rocket Batteries will fire to reduce the rank bonus of enemy regiments, or will focus on the most dangerous units, and thus try to reduce them. Great Cannons will target the Monsters like Dragons, Giants, Manticores, etc. In a classic manoeuvre at the Charlotte GT, Tim sacrificed one of his large Swordsmen units to expose the flank of a Chosen Chaos Knight unit. The Great Cannon proceeded to fire and destroyed most of the enemy unit.

C) The idea of "defensive cavalry" is unique. The basis of the tactic is that cavalry is used to support the infantry line. Unless an enemy is to be diverted or its flank threatened, keep them generally close to a block of Swordsmen, both to make a flank support charge, and to catch fleeing troops, preventing them from returning to battle.

4. “All units in the infantry line, whether state or Detachment, will be large enough to withstand casualties and retain bonuses. The rest of the units will be so small that they will play a purely supporting role. This means that the support units will carry no standard, no champion, no characters, nor magic "trinkets" of any kind. They may have a musician to help regroup, but that will be the only upgrade they will have. ” - TVI

Ancillary units are kept small and at minimal cost. The rational is that against a less mobile army, many enemies will eliminate small units, and just ignore attacking large units with a high level of combat resolution. It is important to save these expendable units, as often an opponent's strategy will be to focus on supporting units and isolate main units. This is why it is so important to be aggressive with large blocks and not give your enemy any option, but to engage your army. Normally, an Empire army has enough missile units to prevent the enemy from staying away.

5. “The characters remain in the infantry line to provide their bonuses. They are all mounted, with a lot of armour, and if possible they will have a ward save”. - TVI

In the previous edition of Warhammer, mounted characters were vulnerable. One of the most widely used strategies was to use the characters to attract missile fire. However, this has changed in the new edition. Characters mounted in an infantry unit are now standard for most players. The characters of the Empire benefit from an excellent armour save and mobility.

Mounted characters are a fundamental part of the battalion concept. Once the enemy charge is over, the mounted character can use his greater speed to chase and catch those who flee. Sometimes an Empire general and a battle standard bearer can join a vanilla knight unit, turning it into a deadly routing unit. It may be necessary to eliminate weaker units to clear the path and for the main units to arrive in combat intact. Depending on how they equip themselves, the two characters can charge and remove support units by themselves. Targets such as Salamanders, herds of Beastmen, etc.  will often not withstand the powerful attacks of two characters, or will, at best, hold out, until more Empire help arrives. This should not be done unless necessary, as the Empire is one of the armies that needs to preserve its leadership capabilities.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 07:26:29 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Fighting like a Village Idiot.
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2020, 10:21:05 PM »
Army List Building

So I began to design my army: three large blocks of 30 swordsmen, deployed 6 wide by 5 deep, make up the backbone. Each swordsman block has 1 or 2 12-man Detachments deployed 6 wide by 2 deep. Each infantry unit and its Detachment have an assigned 6-man horse unit. Two units consist of Knightly orders and one unit of White Wolves. These units consist of bare knights, no Inner Circle, no champion, no standard, only a musician to maintain order ”. - TVI

To build a good list based on the battalion concept, you need at least three main units. While these are normally state troops such as Swordsmen, they may, in fact, be made up of other troops. All state troops should have at least one Detachment. These will normally be Free Companies, but can be any normal type of militia troops. Archer Detachments are practical both for defending the main units by forming a screen and for supporting them with shooting. Just remember that, if you have the option of either moving to a better position or shooting, you always have to move in an Empire army.


A typical TVI tactical deployment  

"When the Greatswords attack, the game ends" - Atchman.
 
Greatswords combine excellent armour and high weapon skill with deadly S5. They also have a decent leadership (8), and can often manage without characters. When held in close proximity to the battle standard bearer, they are almost unbreakable. If they ever flee, the Empire is in serious trouble.

Flagellants are the most reliable Empire regiment. Since they have Frenzy, they may leave the line, lured into charging units. More balanced might be a unit of Swordsmen with a battle standard bearer, a unit of Greatswords, and a large unit of Flagellants. Use Archer Detachments to prevent the Flagellants from leaving the line because of their Frenzy.

A Steam Tank or Giant can be used as effective blocking units. These two units are tough! They can play the same role as an infantry unit, resisting an enemy charge and then flanking them. If you use it like this, you must understand that some things can completely destroy a Giant or a Steam Tank, so they need immediate. In addition to their ability to withstand great damage, they can also cause significant damage, and have the advantage of not having standards (and the valuable victory points they bring), if they are removed.

Even an Empire character can play the role of a regiment. An Arch-Lector on War Altar is unbreakable and highly mobile. Placing the Arch-Lector in the middle of the Empire line, flanked by units that can counter-charge and come to his rescue is an effective strategy.

Fighting the TVI way  

Manoeuvring with Detachments is simple. State troops advance towards the enemy line as quickly as possible while Detachments and cavalry stay slightly behind to stay out of enemy charge range, but close enough to counter-charge or charge cavalry. If the enemy charges the main unit, the Detachment flank-charges, or flees, if charged itself. This then allows the cavalry to charge the exposed flank of enemy unit without problems, or, if the Detachment has counter-charged, move behind the enemy line. Keep your Detachments between 15 and 17 cm behind the front of the state units, and keep your cavalry about 25 cm behind them ". - TVI


A fearsome unit of Black Orcs approaches the Empire lines. Following the battalion concept, a Free Company detachment is deployed about 15-17 cm behind and about 4-5 cm from the flank, to be able to execute a more favourable charge. A unit of White Wolves is positioned on the other side of the unit. In the following turn, the White Wolves may: a) charge the flank of the Black Orc unit, if it maintains its position; b) pursue it, if it flees or c) charge it in the flank, if it breaks and pursues the Swordsmen [in the current turn of the Orc player]. All of this is possible, because the imperial player WANTED the Swordsmen unit to be charged.


The function of the cavalry is to support the infantry line, they will sacrifice themselves in order to keep enemy units away from potential charges on the flank of your troops (unless your unit is stubborn). They will not pursue enemy units, unless the infantry is completely safe from enemy activity. The knights will allow the infantry to fight, while they will move to the proper position to charge the flank or rear of the unit engaging the infantry. They'll sit tight, and protect an exposed flank, before going after small targets. The supporting knights can plug a hole in the line in an emergency, or also penetrate the enemy line.

The function of the cannon is to support the infantry by eliminating Chariots, terror-causing units and Monsters. They will shoot to support the infantry rather than against a unit that tries to charge the war machine. The Mortars are there to support the infantry. They will drop their missiles from above to reduce the enemy ranks before combat, and to deplete any units that are out of range of your infantry line. Please remember that mortars can (and do) hit with a margin of 25 cm; so do not aim at anything within 30 cm of one of your main infantry units. Mortars can also be used occasionally to attack targets of opportunity in the rear (as cannons do). I once killed a Chaos Spawn that had penetrated a sector of my line with a couple direct Mortar hits (S6, 1D3 wounds, no armour save). I've also eliminated wizards in this way!

Tactics based on the Battalion concept
 
It was not until I regularly played with my Dwarf army that I really understood the idea of provoking or inciting an enemy charge. Many players, when caught by enemy charges, try to retreat and avoid combat. Using the "Idiot" method, one manoeuvres in such a way that it forces the enemy to charge its large units: it is simply given no other choice. There are many reasons, but I will highlight just a few:

1) If you charge, then, in the opponents turn, fleeing units can rally and return to the game again. You should only charge enemy units in your turn, if you are sure that a) you will kill them, or b) they will be eliminated by "crossfire" or will flee the battlefield. If you cannot break them, you will be exposed to a charge in the enemy's turn.



Charging an enemy unit that is likely to survive will increase the chances that you will have to attack them longer. It is vitally important to learn, when to charge and when to hold the line. Keeping the line of infantry together will form a network and push the enemy across the board.

2) Allowing the enemy to charge you is a fundamental part of the strategy.  Enemy units broken in combat (also those that hold on) may be charged by other units of knights, Detachments, White Wolves or Light Cavalry (or vanilla knights).



Here the state troop unit [Parent Unit] withstood the charge of the Chosen Chaos Knights. The Empire player then counter-charges with the Light Cavalry to deny ranks, and perhaps to add some decisive wounds for combat resolution. The Detachment stays behind as you must never add defenceless and unarmoured troops to a combat. A Detachment will have little chance of wounding elite knights, and an experienced player will direct as many attacks as possible at the weak Detachment, likely allowing the Knights of Chaos to defeat three units at once!

3) Units broken in the opponent's turn can be forced to flee again. Small Detachments of Archers, White Wolves and Knights are ideal for this.



Here the state troops have repelled the charge of the Chosen Chaos Knights, and now the vanilla knights charge them, sending them on an escape route off the board. This leaves the state unit and the Detachment free to seek new objectives.
Note: A mounted character in the infantry unit is an ideal unit for catching troops that turned heels, but be careful not to leave him in a vulnerable position.

4) The tactics of an army based on the concept of battalion allow to earn victory points for the quarters of the battlefield. There are plenty of units available to contest and capture ground.



Here the Empire player has left a Detachment of Handgunners behind to capture a vital quadrant. With an Empire army based on the battalion concept it is often feasible to capture or contest all table quarters.

Variants


 
One of the nice things about the battalion concept is that you can use it in many different ways. In the diagram above, half the army is deployed in the manner of a battalion. The other half of the army is made up of heavy cavalry units. A Templar Grand Master in the large unit of Knights, which remains close to the infantry, giving them vital leadership for the beginning of the game. The dark blue infantry unit is commanded by a battle standard bearer (perhaps with the Sigismund, Griffon, or Imperial Banner), while the light blue unit conists of Greatswords. Most of the army is leadership 8 and can operate without the leadership of the general. A Banner of Valour on the Greatswords would be a good idea to avoid panic. This army design is commonly used by Racticas.



One of the most effective tools on the Empire's new roster is the Arch-Lector with the War Altar of Sigmar. Here, the Arch-Lector (light green square) gives his valuable leadership to the two infantry units. The infantry helps prevent it from being caught by enemy units with high combat resolution. Fast cavalry units shield the flank of the infantry line. Another option would be Flagellants, as they are unbreakable. The house we see in the diagram can also protect one of the flanks.

It is not made for everyone

The "Idiot" method is not made for everyone. However it can be a nice variation to the usual tactics. In fact, the army has some weaknesses that can be exploited:

1) It is still an army of the Empire and psychology is still a problem. Sometimes this can be solved by using the Imperial Banner.

2) Magic defence is somewhat weak. This is not too important, as most of the spells are usually missile-type, which will not normally be fatal against units of 30 models. However, movement spells such as Waaagh, Van Hel's Dance Macabre, etc., and immobilisation spells ... are a real problem to defend against.



Here, the player of the empire has kept his Detachments in the rear, awaiting the Orc Waaagh. Since the Empire player wants to be charged (in the battalion concept), the Waaagh is playing into hands of the Empire.

3) Some enemy units are less affected by the combat resolution points generated. Stubborn units such as Stegadons, Slayers, etc. are a real problem, because it can take a long time to isolate and destroy them. With the Empire's lack of melee power, these units also take an enormous amount of time to be wounded and eliminated.



On the right side of the picture, the Dwarf Slayers have withstood the Empire forces for another turn ... This has allowed the clan Warriors to come to their rescue. The forces of the Empire lack true killing power, especially against tough enemies like Dwarves.

Summary

During the first years that I played Warhammer I only used my Empire armies in tournaments. In the Charlotte GT, I met The Village Idiot in person, Mr. Tim
Walker. When I saw his army, I thought to myself: "You will be lucky, if you can beat a single person with that list”, but he won the GT! During the next two years, I tried many kinds of Empire army lists. It wasn't until I brought my own “TVI” list to the Baltimore GT I managed to be the highest ranked Empire player - something I have achieved in every GT I attended using the TVI style.
Give it an chance. Maybe it does not work as well for you as it did for me, but I think it remains a valid tactic. The 7th Warhammer edition and the new Empire Army Book have reduced the advantages only a bit. A well played TVI list is a tough nut to crack for most races.

Randy Atchley, aka Atchman
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 07:58:07 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Zygmund

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Re: Fighting like a Village Idiot.
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2020, 06:49:54 AM »
Thank you, Fidelis, for this translation! As far as I remember the original article, this certainly conveys the ideas & meaning in total clarity.

-Z
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Offline The Black Knight

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Re: Fighting like a Village Idiot: the TVI Tactica
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2020, 07:50:31 AM »
Holy cow, what an effort Fidelis!!!  :eusa_clap:
Can't wait to read through this, loved the TVI gaming attitude.
There were some fabulous tactics discussions back then (well I mostly just read them to be fair  :icon_lol:).
"All right... we'll call it a draw".

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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Fighting like a Village Idiot: the TVI Tactica
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2020, 10:55:57 AM »
Thank you.  Quite the effort there. :icon_cool: :::cheers:::

Hopefully when there is a return to WFB, having this available will be helpful to Empire players.
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Offline Dihenydd

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Re: Fighting like a Village Idiot: the TVI Tactica
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2020, 06:32:21 PM »
So good to see this again!  I actually have a printed version somewhere in my files as I considered this my template for all my empire army options.

I remember hundreds of comments on how "their" TVI deviated slightly from the above and the intricacies of deployment etc.  Lots of good reading then.

"My" take on the TVI was the inclusion of one DoW regiment (no detachments available) of Ogres, Dwarfs or Pikes depending on my opponent (and i liked the models.  I also added a Captesus in place of one of the light cavalry, for some defensive magic and end of match cleanup of fleeing units.  My sword detachments were 3x3 instead of the 5x2 so I could compact things a big and save a couple points.  Cannons and mortars only.

Sometimes the "Old Ones" just need to leave.....

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Fighting like a Village Idiot: the TVI Tactica
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2020, 02:22:44 PM »
Thank you all for the accolades. One question posed at the time: would it be workable in the 8th edition.

This is what the Village Idiot had to say then:

BLASPHEMERS!!!  ::heretic::

All disbelievers shall be burned until morale is improved! My "style" of play was simply done to counter the 7th edition creep of power armies with killer character/magic items/magic banner combos that could plow through units with incredible combat resolution. The vast majority of players tried  to fight fire with fire, and tried to come up with units and combos of our own that could stop the enemy. These units would be INSANELY expensive, and even more costly when we lost them because the other armies were BETTER at that game than the Empire.

I decided to NOT feed my opponents expensive units to be destroyed...but solid, dirt-cheap units. I tried to feed the enemy's 800+ point unit...things that cost me 200 points, 100 points, 85 points, etc...making sure that that enemy uber-unit NEVER earned more victory points than he spent on it. Meanwhile, I was busy killing-off his secondary and support units, earning victories. Bloody? You betcha...I regularly lost half my army's models...But successful? You betcha.

The goal I try  to achieve is to have a PLIABLE front infantry line. Enemy uber-killy units will break right through it...enemy secondary units will be stopped by it and ground down...enemy support units will die upon it. In the second half of the game I'm busily taking out every enemy character and support unit deep in the enemy's deployment zone. What did my enemy find after breaking through my front line? A second line of cheap shooting units and widely scattered siege machines...all of which have been blazing away at any target of opportunity.

Detachments still rock. Detachments are still vital. Detachments still do not cause panic. Detachments are NOT outdated. Enemy players are not any smarter, nor any more stupid than they were in 7th edition. A competent Empire player will STILL be able to maneuver into a position that forces the enemy to charge the parent block, and recieve the counter-charge from the detachment  in return. This causes disruption and loss of rank bonus of course. We will outnumber MOST armies, but not all. My style of play regularly outnumbers Skaven if they spent too much on magical goodies. There are no absolutes. But there are tactics....and I still speak and understand tactics.

King Arthur: This TVI thing...How does it... um... how does it work?
Sir Lancelot: I know not, my liege.
King Arthur: Consult the Book of Armaments.
Brother Maynard: Armaments, chapter two, verses nine through twenty-one.
Cleric: [reading] And Saint Attila raised the TVI style up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy TVI style, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu...

TVI


Of course, that was still before the 8th edition Empire AB was released. I would argue that the overlap 8th edition BRB/7the edition Empire AB was the only time that the Empire was a 1st tier army, thanks to the improved Steam Tank, the improved Master of Ballistics special rule, the Detachment rules and  the War Altar remaining unchanged, our magic items, to name a few things. I guess the TVI tactica would still have worked under these conditions.

With the release of the 8th edition AB, the BRB obstacles to the TVI tactica became more pronounced:
1. CR losing importance
2. Much more powerful magic:  the idea that spells will "not normally be fatal against units of 30 models" definitely does not wash in the 8th edition, and we lost DD from WP or the Rod Of Power.
3. Price hike of our State Troops
4. Changed Detachment rules:
Detachments lost the automatic flanking during counter-charge. Indeed, since the counter-charge has to be announced before the enemy has moved, it had become more difficult. In addition, the fact that Detachments do not attack first anymore, in combination with the Step Up rule, adds to the problem for Detachments to achieve disruption during counter-charge. In the 8th, there need to be 5x2 models left, to disrupt an enemy that will have be able to use all his attacks. Before, any enemy model killed by the Detachment first meant fewer attacks in return. That is why the Free Company were so effective. The Step Up rule was long overdue, but it does seriously reduce the effectiveness of the counter-charge. Indeed, these changes also undermine a fundamental concept of the TVI tactica: you want the enemy to charge, and the enemy was usually very willing to oblige, because charging provided substantial benefits.

To add some other nerfs:
- Fleeing/annihilated Detachments now cause Panic, although this is mitigated to a certain extent by the new BSB rules.
- Support Fire now suffers the -1 to Hit for S&S
- Support Charge was scrapped, although that would have little effect on the original TVI tactica, since you want the enemy to charge.

On paper, the innovation of conferring psychologic special rules sounds great, but in practice, it does not seem to work well, and IMO did not warrant the price hike of our State Troops.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline SirMixus

  • Posts: 5
Re: Fighting like a Village Idiot: the TVI Tactica
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2020, 01:34:06 AM »
You are an absolute hero fidelis! I didn't think in the slightest anything would show up and now that. Thank you.

Offline emperor_pudu

  • Posts: 4
Re: Fighting like a Village Idiot: the TVI Tactica
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2020, 12:20:11 AM »
Thank you! It was my ISO:war room articles thread this came up, I've been after it for awhile! I didn't realize/remember I guess that it was 7th edition, although maybe that's why I didn't get it in my spree of printing articles back 17 years ago or whenever. I just uploaded my first scans of major tactica over in my thread, and I'll keep doing it, if anyone is interested.

Offline WarhammerWodner

  • Posts: 16
Re: Fighting like a Village Idiot: the TVI Tactica
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2021, 03:10:46 PM »
Hey Fidelis,

Also a big thanks from my part.
Your summary is amazing and shows how mucb effort you put into that.
Really awesome!

Cheers,
Wodner