Topic: Vs. Orcs and Gobbos

[Boris Todbringer]

I play the same orcs and goblins army a lot, but have only one twice out of like ten times. Since discovering this site I haven't played them yet, but I would still like to rest easy knowing that I'm going in with this forum's approval. Here's their list:

Night gobbo big shaman (Knobbly staff- can reroll all dice for one spell/turn)
Little night gobbo shaman
Big boss on a boar with Porko's Pigsticka (Nasty item! Gets +1 attack for each rank I have.)
Big boss on foot (The general) with 1+ save and gr. weapon

25 Boyz with 2 choppas
20 Boyz with spears
24 Boyz with hand weapon+shield
24 Big Uns with hand weapon+shield (General's unit)
11 Boar Boyz (Big Boss)
20 Night gobbos with 3 fanatics (Both shamans in here)
15 wolf riders with light armor and spear (Not fast cav- still hard hitting.)
5 wolf riders with bows (fast cav)
12 Black orcs with two choppas
2 spear chukkas
1 rock lobba
1 Doom diver

My new army:

1 Elector count (general)
full plate +ench. shield
Sword of Power

Battle captain on Pegasus with lance
Scroll Caddie (lvl 2), heavens
Battle Wizard (lvl 2) with rod of power on barded horse, shadow

24 swordsmen (EC's unit) w/ Griffon Banner
24 swordsmen (Battle wizard) det. of 10 Free co.
25 swordsmen det. of 10 halberdiers
9 IC Reiksguard
3x 10 Handgunners marksman w/ long rifle
6 Pistoliers
Marksman w/ repeater pistol
1 Mortar
1 Cannon
1 Helblaster
12 Flaggelants

In case you were wondering, this is a 2500 pt game. Any suggestions would be welcome!

[Kryvich]

I have not mauch experience with Empire Army in WHFB, but I think some of my suggestion may be handfull.

Look like your opponent overhelm you with
1. Melee units.
2. Magic phase.
3. Warmachines amount.
Looks like he use ALL advantages of the Greenskins army.

But you list looks like did not use advantages of the Empire.
Suggestion to the tactics -
1. SHOOT as much as possible. Take many shooter.
2. Try to hold and slow opponent army (they are always slow due the animosity)
3. After entering into melee - pray and say CHARGEEEE to your knigths units and HOLD THE GROUND to the infantry.
4. Kill the shamans or pray for miscast.

Unit suggestion (without any "fluff"):
Heroes.
1. Drop the pegasus. I think the better choice may be captain BSB for the one of the your infantry units with banner of Sigismund.
2. Think about taking GradnMaster as Lord, not the Elector. That add to your knights more destructive power.
3. If you leave the Elector, you have two choices -
a. With unit of greatswords with Griffon Banner.
б. With your IC knights.
3. Think about change one of your wizard to the warrior priest of Ulric. Overwise, all that you can do with your magic - only dispelling. But priest add you some combat power + bound spell + same dispel dice + hate ws goblins. If you take the priest - of course join him with one of your units.

Core
1. For the handgunners I prefer repeater rifle, but hochland is good too. May be you can drop one of the unit of handgunners. You should positioned them in 1-rank line, and I think that 30 handgunners + your other troops is too wide (except awesome hilll on your quaters).
2. Drop hallberd and free company
3. Drop one unit of swordsmen (may be even two). 24 - good size for them. Use released swordsmens as detachments.
4. One unit of sweet core knights? Why? Take at least one more. Size is variable. From 6 to the 12.
5. Where is your huntsmen?? Must be taken. Slowing enemy + good damage against low-armoured goblins. Don't forget - skirmishers (archers) can shoot from the non-first ranks and have 360 degree. Against greenskins - can be used also as detachment.

Special
1. Greatswords must be taken. 15-20 with Griffon Banner. With detachment of swordsmen.
2. Pistoliers - good.
3. You have handgunners + hellblaster. Most of greenskins have light armour. May take 2 mortars - no LOS + huge template and damage against low-armoured. Or leave the cannon for shaman-hunting

Rare
1. Drop flagellants. Take one more Hellblaster. Or even Steam Tank (and roll them all). Or your can think about some DOW-ROR unit to add melee power to your troops (Ogres, pikes), or to slow the enemy (ligth cavalry, duelist). I prefer Hellblaster.

[Albrecht von Hinkel]

Actually you need LOS for mortar.

[Kryvich]

 

[Kryvich]

After some analisys, I understand, that my suggestions ara valid only for defending army.   Greenskins can try to shoot/magic your from their defend position. For the advancing forces, you should think about somethins else.

[George]

I too have the same troubled...and for that matter about the same win loss ratio.

It is hard to go toe to toe against such an army and magic will probably win it for him. To counter this I would concentrate my fire on the night gobbo unit. They have only a leadership of 5 given the general is not nearby. If they turn tail and flee. This removes not only both shamans but also the dreaded fanatics who I can almost guarantee will have 2D6 hits each due to shaman's magic mushrooms. This should allow you to control the magic phase...something an O&G general will hate.

For my wizards i would take the level 2 celestial with scrolls and level 2 fire with wizard's staff. This will allow you to cast conflagartion of doom or my favorite (as it seriously impedes the army) a wall of fire given you get them.

Would consider sacrifising captain on pegasus to march block and bring out fantics in the midst of his army. Probably would attempt to keep the unit of knights and pistoliers to try and flank charge when your swordsmen get into combat.

Other than that stay clear, pick your fights and shoot the hell out of them.

[Boris Todbringer]

Thanks for all the advice!  Do night gobbos only realease if they have LOS? if no, than I could just put the pegasus at such an angle as to make the fanatics go through one of his units...

[George]

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that night gobbos release whenever the enemy is within 8 inches. That tactic sounds very good, but as the general can decide on the initial direction of the fanatics they won't go through his unit...but you would have dealt with them most effectively!

[Kryvich]

What about WD280 Cult of Ulric? I think, the core of your army can be easly converted to Ulric Warrios.
Advantages:
1. With the LOT of the Ulric's Priests (and nice new items), which is possible for that army, you shutdown all greenskins magic and can cast some yours spells.
2. With really cheap infantry (what about swordsmen for the 5 points!),  lot of heroes, missing of the warmasines and shooters, at least one rare slot free for the DOW support, yiu can beat greenskins in melee and overhelm them with horde of your troops.
Disadvantage
1. You should disable all warmachines quickly.
2. Sorry, no detachment rule.
Tactics very simple - crush, kill and destroy.

[IH8Skaven]

Porko's Pigstikka is indeed a nasty item.  <Looking over at the Orc Warboss holding one that I am modeling on a chariot.>

Instead of possibly sacrificing your Pegasus into fanatic meat, wouldn't it make more sense to start bringing along 5 huntsmen?  (50 points.)  I would scout if I could, and just keep them out of LOS of the NG shamans, and out of range of their shorter ranges spells that don't require LOS.  With your level of firepower, he's obviously bringing the battle to you, so I'd wait for the opportune time and best opportune angle to get my huntsmen within 8".  

At the same time, NG Ld is crap.  You need to handgun, mortar, pistol, every shot you can into that unit to make them panic.  Once running, they don't rally easy, and you'll start a trend that will teach your friend that he just can't blindly put all his magic ummpphh into one unit of piss-poor gobbos.  The fleeing NG will also most likely spook some artillery crews as they run on through.

The way he is currently playing his army, he's one good mortar shot away from losing the whole game.

[BrunoAvena]

A pegasus is much more maneuvable than the huntsmen. You can fly 20", what means that you can fly to the back of his army in the second turn and force him to turn or acept to walk slowly... The huntsmen usually get more results in the flanks of the enemy army, not in the rearguard.

[IH8Skaven]

A pegasus is much more maneuvable than the huntsmen. You can fly 20", what means that you can fly to the back of his army in the second turn and force him to turn or acept to walk slowly... The huntsmen usually get more results in the flanks of the enemy army, not in the rearguard.

Absolutely right!  A pegasus is much more manueverable.  BUT!  A unit of hunstmen are much more maneuverable than the unit of NG's.  (let alone, the entire O&G army.)

You're a scout, so you set up last, and you know exactly where the NG are going at on the table.  The O&G don't have a skirmisher in the lot (big weakness,) so you can run pretty much as you please with this tiny unit, very easy to slip around blocks of troops, or just wait in a convenient clump of trees unit the NG are close enough, then just move due north on the table so the fanatics fly out as parallel to your line as possible.  Quite simply done.  If all else fails, use your Pegasus as Plan B, but since Plan A should work you've now freed up your peggie to go kill war machines, which is much better than letting him become fanatic paste.

[Boris Todbringer]

Thanks again for all the advice. My NEW 2500 pt. army list additions:

12 knights full command, war banner instead of 9 IC knights
5 White wolves (Flanking power)
only 16 handgunners, not 30
marksman has a repeater handgun
5 Huntsmen
Lvl 2 celestial scroll caddy
lvl 2 Bright wizard with wizard's staff

[George]

Good Luck with the army...Let us know how it all turns out.

[IH8Skaven]

yeah good luck. definitely let us know.  

[Boris Todbringer]

I know that this is strictly vs. Greenskins, but my usual opponent is studying for his exams, so I played against a skaven army....

Major Loss! My helblaster jammed at a crucial moment, my huntsmen were warp lighninged out of existence, he got two Plagues off (both Irresistible Force), my knights were shot to pieces by a lvl 2 warp lightning and 5 jezzails, my magic waffled (I'm not sure what that means, but its what my opponent said when my wall of fire failed to kill a single stormvermin), blah blah. Please don't think I'm whining about my luck, because it could have been much worse, I suppose.

One good thing: He skitterleaped his Engineer on to my hill, hoping for a little fun. But he forgot about 360 charge arc of my pegasus....  

I think I should drop the Handgunners. They never kill anything that matters, fail all their panic tests, and just make my hill a more juicy target. I might go for a couple more detatchments in their place, or maybe another mortar, or perhaps give my general VH speculum.

Well at least I broke the army in, so I can play it right when I fight the greenskins next. I guess that we wont know how it does for another week or so.

[IH8Skaven]

A pegasus doesn't have a 360 degree charge arc.  Only flyer units, a single man-size model on foot, and skirmishers do.  A character on a horse or monster doesn't.

[Atchman]

Against the Greenskins the handgunners will be better than against Skaven.  Though I own three of the stupid things, I rarely use Hochland Long Rifles, except against Skaven.  Taking out a big point weapons team, or warlock engineer, is just too cool.  

I wouldn't drop the handguns against orcs.  You may do what I like and just put them on a flank.  That way they don't open a huge hole in your line when they run away (and they will).  The Hochland long rifles are about useless against Orcs unless they are using goblin shamans as characters.  One battle though I did take out a Black Orc Champion.  Check out his stats, except for wounds he is better than a 50 pt Empire hero or Elector Count!

Against a Bret force with that stupid prayer, I placed my handgunner units about 6" from the table edge.  That way when the knights charged them (and killed them), they would either have to pursue off the table or were so bound up, they can't turn back into the battle for at least one turn.  Angling them is also a good tactic when they are out on a flank.