Topic: Post-FAQ List: Infantry and Artillery

[Clymer]

Been doing some mulling and here’s my first serious crack at a post-FAQ list.

General and Wizard will go in the halberds. I’ll use the lore familiar to pick up Oaken Shield, Fireball, and Hammer Hand. Then I’ll figure out what I want to do with the fourth spell at game time. I’ll be leaning on the double hammer hands and will try out the laurels of victory for combat res.

Then I have the vet swordsmen with Griffon standard and war banner BSB. I hope the parry save and ring of Taal keep them alive for a while. But they should be cranking 11 static combat res. I may drop the demigryph and pick up some more bodies to help keep the unit strength up and free up some points for archers.

I have a ton of artillery: 2x cannons and helblaster and 2x pigeon bombs. Also with the outriders, double fireball from the wizard, and the general’s dragon bow, I think I have enough firepower to encourage all but the most back-edge committed gun lines to come to me and allow me to get my infantry into play.

I also have just 6 drops, which should put me in contention for the +1 to go first.

I have the most mixed feelings about the Cav unit. I think they could be a fast objective grabber that also packs some punch. They should be fairly durable. But I do think I’m missing some flexibility with the list… I have always liked 3 smaller units of cav in most of the lists I’ve run up until now. It feels weird to field the bigger unit and commit so much to one place.

Anyway, this list also has the advantage of already being fully painted, which is a significant plus!

Please give me your thoughts and feedback:

===
Empire of Man [2000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Empire of Man, Open War
===

++ Characters [756 pts] ++

General of the Empire [185 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Light armour
- General
- On foot
- Twice-Blessed Armour
- Laurels of Victory
- Dragon Bow
- Charmed Shield

Wizard Lord [245 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Wizard [Level 4 Wizard]
- On foot
- Ruby Ring of Ruin
- Lore Familiar
- Wizard's Staff
- Battle Magic

Captain of the Empire [196 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Battle Standard Bearer [War Banner]
- Demigryph
- Charmed Shield
- Witch Hunter's Ward
- Ring of Taal

Empire Engineer [65 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Pigeon bombs
- On foot

Empire Engineer [65 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Pigeon bombs
- On foot

++ Core Units [678 pts] ++

30 State Troops [225 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Shields
- Sergeant (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

24 Veteran State Troops [257 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Shields
- Veteran Sergeant (champion)
- Standard bearer [Griffon Standard]
- Musician

8 Empire Knights [196 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Barding
- Drilled
- Preceptor (champion)
- Standard bearer

++ Special Units [326 pts] ++

Great Cannon [125 pts]
- Great cannon
- Hand weapons

Great Cannon [125 pts]
- Great cannon
- Hand weapons

4 Outriders [76 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Pistols
- Repeater handguns
- Heavy armour

++ Rare Units [240 pts] ++

Helblaster Volley Gun [120 pts]

Helblaster Volley Gun [120 pts]

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

[drweir4]

the demi bsb can now be targeted in infantry - i still think its a good piece and my plan was to have cav and inf it could go in depending on what i was facing

i'd also make the griffon banner block bigger by shaving points off the general and the mage

[Clymer]

That’s a good call out on the demigryph. I’d heard the youtubers talking about chariot characters and thought it only applied to those.

You’re probably also right about shaving points off the general and wizard. I kind of want to see if the laurels of victory and twice-blessed armor combo delivers combat res… but I am nervous about the liability of an expensive character that’s kind of squishy. Same on the wizard: I’m going for that +3 to cast and a double fireball… but those points are a major liability.

I’ll see if I can get a double header in and try two versions: expensive characters/cheap characters versions

[drweir4]

Yeah, its any unit type difference unfortuatnely (but only inf/cav etc, monstorous cav in cav or heavy inf in inf is still fine)

I just think magic, especially vs other units like magic missiles is so much less reliable now - even with +3 (and its still only +1 on the RRR) on fireball if thats into MR2 or MR1 you've got about 50% chance of success which isnt great especially when you are spending so many points

I think also now you have to consider whether the extra spell for a lv4 is worth the 30 points - a lv3 with lore familiar only is going to do almost the same, and i think the familiar is now maybe the better pick as +3 dispel + MR makes empire really hard to affect with magic. I'm going to try a cheap lv3 in big state troop blocks with fireball, oaken shield and arcane urgency only.

Also because wizards can now dispel in the comabt they are in, while i still think the TBA is good, if vs a MR unit or a wizard, its not going to cast reliably either - you are throwing like 65 points at that combo which feels like a lot for something which maybe works like 50/60% of the time at best

[Clymer]

It’s interesting, you, some of the YouTubers, and the guys in my gaming group are all advocates for cheap characters. I’m on the fence. I can see where cutting points reduces liability, and the extra points invested don’t seem to be efficient, at least just in my head when I math things out, having played zero post FAQ games.

Here’s what keeps me coming back to spending a few more points though: Infantry now seems to be a requirement for us. And our infantry has gotten a big boost, but so did everyone else’s. My infantry was getting worked by my buddy’s orcs before. Ok, now with parry we’ve gotten a bit tougher, and with horde and probably outnumber, we’ve picked up two more points of static res. My hand weapon or halberd attacks have doubled, which is great. But is that enough to go toe to toe with his orcs or black orcs, who were already beating me badly, and thinning down my ranks, and therefore static res, very rapidly? I think the answer is no. But now I have to take infantry, so what do I do?

I don’t know, maybe I can still squeak out wins by stacking static res, but I kind of don’t think so. So I lean one of two ways: load up characters and try to do real damage, or if I go cheap, then I don’t think it’s worth investing in big blocks of infantry at all. I think the cheap option build is 3-4 units of 20-25 models, with no characters. Put a naked BSB on foot behind the line somewhere to keep them from running away, and then still load up on griffons and cav heroes.

I could totally be wrong though. Maybe our infantry actually is good enough now? Time will tell.

[drweir4]

I agree with you that infantry getting better is actually bad for empire because we still have the worst infantry. Point for point empire infantry is still outmatched by basically every other faction

I've got a number of ideas I want to try around it, including multiple "cheap" units of state troops just to provide combat res support to other units like demigryphs, as opposed to one big griffon standard brick

In a similar vien I'm still trying to avoid foot characters, because again they are easily outmatched by everyone else's foot characters. I've tried a general on a medium griffon which was good as they both have the same initative for challenges

[Footpatrol2]

Derailing deleted

[commandant]

I suppose the question is that, given a black orc is twice the cost of a halberdier, why is he getting any non-disordered charges off?

Now that our infantry fight in two rank a wide unit of black orcs slamming into halberdiers isn't great for them.

I'm not sure what a standard unit of black orcs is so I too 30 witb full command for 378 points.   Against that I put 54 state troops with halberds and full command for the slightly cheaper 339 points.

I deployed the halberdiers 6 wide for both parent and detachments and deployed the detachments in a shallow v.

So the question is how does the black orc block charge this infantry regiment.

If it is 5 or more wide then the shallow V is going to cause it to be a disordered charge against the parent unit.
If it is 5 or more wide against either of the detachments then it will both cause a disordered charge against parent and detachment and allow the second detachment to countercharge.

In the case of a disordered charge everything strikes at I3.

It depends on how wide the black orcs are but I would assume not more than 6 or 7. More than that and they become very immobile.

So lets say 6 wide.
Black orcs have 13 attacks. Hitting on 3+ and wounding on 3+. This amounts to 5.77 wounds.

The empire has 37 attacks, hitting on 4+ and wounding on 4+ for 9.25 wounds. Black orcs have full plate. So a 4+ save. Even if you disregard Armour Bane that leaves the halberdiers with 6.1 wounds.

Depending on how the wounds are allotted tha black orcs are losing this encounter by

6 (lets be generous for wounds) + 2 (ranks) + 1 (Close order) +1 (banner) = 10
6 (wounds) +3 (rank) +2 (close order as I'm assuming that some of the wounds were against a detachment to strip 3 models and deny it its close order bonus, though this is less than certain) +1 (banner) +1 (outnumber) = 13

Black orcs are testing on a 5 in order to not flee.   This seems like a bad matchup for the black orcs.   Sure it is a dice game and somebody rolling better or worse than average (like when my outriders rolled 8 1s to hit) will change things but on points alone halberdiers can stand toe to toe with black orcs and expect to win a reasonable amount of the time.

Even you somehow don't disrupt the incoming black orc charge then you lose 6 attacks. Your state troops generate about 1 wound per 6 attacks which brings down your wounds from 6-5 and you still win combat by 2..

[drweir4]

Why do the black orcs need to charge? They will be accompanied by night goblins with fanatics who can just release fanatics to wreck the empire line

The other key thing you're missing there is they will have probably 2 characters in the front rank putting out maybe 9 attacks on the charge, which is probably 6 more dead halbs

Its more that they can make a unit that actually can't be stopped by an empire block even if the empire block costs less, even with a disordered charge (and fanatics looooove multiple units next to each other to plough through)

[commandant]

Why the black orcs charged is possibility a question that needs to be answered?

The point I am making is just that on a raw points value 30 black orcs fair poorly against a slightly cheaper.

We should however consider the point that black orcs don't come without a black orc warboss. This is certainly true because it is illegal for there not at least to be a black orc warboss on the table.

I have added a black orc warboss to be the army general for 138 points.  That gets the black orcs a further 6 attacks.   Now they are better attacks because they are WS7. So 5 will hit and will make on average 4 wounds.


Now what does the Empire get for 138 points.

For 150 points I get a general on a demi griffon with a halberd.
He gets 3 attacks.   So he should do a wound (which importantly will remove 2 attacks from the black orcs)
The demi griffon also gets three attacks.  He should do 1 wound (removing 2 more attacks from the black orcs).

The general also removes 4 attacks from the halberdiers (because he takes up space).

The black orc warboss removes 2 attacks from the black orcs ( because he takes up space)

So the result is that the empire has lost 8 attacks.
The black orcs have lost 6 attack.

The black orc warboss did 4 CR
The Empire General did 2 combat res.

So the black orcs have 4 remaining attacks.   That should net them 1.77 wounds for a total of 5.77 CR total.   It could be less than that because some of those attacks might have to be thrown into the general who has higher WS and a 3+ AS.

Meanwhile the Empire has 29 attacks for 4.8 wounds. Add that to the general's 2 for 6.8 wounds and putting an Empire General on a Demigriffon  and a black orc warboss into the mix makes things worse for the black orcs.

Night goblin fanatics are an interesting point. However nighy goblin fanatics are a double edged sword. The chance of them plowing through your own ranks is equal to them plowing through your opponents.   If the fanatics have gotten on your flank so they can pop down your line you have other problems.

I'm also looking at a black orc BSB with the gives you frenzy banner.   The BSB would add 2 attacks (+5 - 2) and then it would add another 6 attacks due to frenzy.

That brings the black orcs to 18 attacks + 2 for BSB +3 for the warboss.   That makes for 23 attacks which is a chunky amount.   11 of them come at I5/I6 so will come first.
The Empire gets 6 attacks I5/I4 so they'll go before the orcs.
The Orcs have spent 651 points.    The empire had spent 482 points.   That means we have 169 points to spend. The question is what are you likely to be spend those points on.
One of the things I'd consider is making the parent block veterans.   It costs 60 points but it means they are WS4 instead of WS3.

Most of the attacks are going against the parent unit moving them to WS4 means that the Big Boss is hitting on 3+ instead of 2+ and the boyz are hitting on 4+ instead of 3 plus.

60 points also gets you a level 1 illusion wizard who can cast glittering robe? Is that an option.

50 points gives your veterans the griffon banner.
20 points gives them the ring of Taal for a possible 5+ ward.

There are lots of options to make them better.   

However the basic point remains that, compared to black orcs, Empire halberdiers are not over costed.

[Dazgrim]

What I've never understood with the wide shallow V formation is what protects the exposed flank of the V that must be facing in some small degree towards your opponent?
I also don't understand why the black orcs can't hit the end of your line leaving them the 1" clear of the other unit whilst still engaging all of your troops.

BBBBB
  HHHHH|HHHHH

[Clymer]

I can’t give you the math of it all, but I can promise you that my buddy’s black orc brick with a character and buffed by magic was doing 10-15 wounds per turn, before they were fighting with a second rank. That was a deficit I couldn’t overcome, and in three turns of combat, it didn’t matter because my unit was gone. I played that match up twice with the same result, and then put that infantry unit away.

Would forcing a disordered charge have helped? Nah, I don’t think it would have mattered. I think he could avoid it anyway.

As for fanatics, those are long gone before the infantry starts to close because I throw cheap units of knights at his night goblins. The fanatics either trigger or get lost and a unit of 5 knights is plenty to take out, or at least occupy a unit of goblins for the rest of the game.

[Footpatrol2]

What I've never understood with the wide shallow V formation is what protects the exposed flank of the V that must be facing in some small degree towards your opponent?
I also don't understand why the black orcs can't hit the end of your line leaving them the 1" clear of the other unit whilst still engaging all of your troops.

BBBBB
  HHHHH|HHHHH

Your right. If you don't keep your frontage small on the support unit the black orcs can charge as you illustrated.

[commandant]

What I've never understood with the wide shallow V formation is what protects the exposed flank of the V that must be facing in some small degree towards your opponent?
I also don't understand why the black orcs can't hit the end of your line leaving them the 1" clear of the other unit whilst still engaging all of your troops.

BBBBB
  HHHHH|HHHHH

So black orcs are on a 30mm base. 6 of them therefore are 180mm.   State troops are on a 25mm base so 6 of them are 150mm.  Therefore there is an overlap of 30mm in the size of the black orcs compared to the state troops.
This means that either the black orcs need to cut down to 5  to be the same size as the state troops or it is going to be incredibly difficult to line up against the detachment without hitting the parent when you maximize.

Also in this instance the detachment can flee. Sure the black orcs can redirect into the parent but  if they are lined up against the detachment in a way to avoid the parent then the wheel needed to get to the parent could cause the charge to fail

I can’t give you the math of it all, but I can promise you that my buddy’s black orc brick with a character and buffed by magic was doing 10-15 wounds per turn, before they were fighting with a second rank. That was a deficit I couldn’t overcome, and in three turns of combat, it didn’t matter because my unit was gone. I played that match up twice with the same result, and then put that infantry unit away.

It does matter what magic is used. Like my parent unit plus detachments killed 40 skeletons in a single round of combat. It did require them to have demonic vessel (I think, the +1 attack one) and battle lust to be fair.

Magic is a big deal after all.

Would forcing a disordered charge have helped? Nah, I don’t think it would have mattered. I think he could avoid it.

Forcing a disordered charge would give you a bucket of extra attacks if he is killing 15 models a turn.  I'm interested in this unit because anything that is killing 10-15 models with 12-16 attacks is very good. It is possible that he is deploying wider.
If he is deployed in a wider formation then it is good to enforce the movement rules. Like black orcs deployed 10 wide can basically only move forward in a straight line due to the cost of wheeling.

[Dazgrim]

This is where I think your model falls over, surely if you're trying to force a disordered charge you need to be at your minimum frontage, IE 5 wide?

[drweir4]

The other problem with being a thinner unit is you are limited on your unit size and therefore redunancy before losing rank bonuses. If you are 5 wide you can only be 5 deep, so 25 max and then after only 6 wounds you lose 2 combat res from griffon banner. You really want to be 6 wide at least to be getting 36 models max which is then 13 before losing any res

[Footpatrol2]

I think you could make the regimental unit 36 strong and still set up disordered charges. Your only 150mm wide. Lots of players are going as wide if not wider.

[drweir4]

Yeah probably

Tbh I just don't think its something you can rely on though, because the detachment has to be 5 strong for it to work right? And how easy is it for an army to remove those 5 models with magic or shooting, if indeed the disordered charge even ends up being consequential (which it won't for some)

Its a nice idea, but unfortuantely spending points on 5 man core units is now really weak, because you want them 10 strong at least for objectives, and i'd rather have bigger units protected with MR

[commandant]

Yeah probably

Tbh I just don't think its something you can rely on though, because the detachment has to be 5 strong for it to work right? And how easy is it for an army to remove those 5 models with magic or shooting, if indeed the disordered charge even ends up being consequential (which it won't for some)

Its a nice idea, but unfortuantely spending points on 5 man core units is now really weak, because you want them 10 strong at least for objectives, and i'd rather have bigger units protected with MR

I would recommend the detachments be 15 or so strong.

Also if your 30 point detachment is soaking up a valuable casting (more so in the much lighter magic would of the post FAQ) then that is also a win.

This is where I think your model falls over, surely if you're trying to force a disordered charge you need to be at your minimum frontage, IE 5 wide?

Not really. You need to be narrower or equally wide as your opponent. I deploy mine 6 (sometimes 7) wide. It is rare for anything that is not a monster to have a lot of punch and not be 150 wide. Demi griffons and most monsterous cav are 50mm wide.
There are things like river trolls that are 40mm wide and therefore could avoid the disordered charge. I'll take my flank charge against them though.

The other thing worth noting is that you only get to wheel once during a charge move. This would make it very difficult for a unit with a 150mm foot print to line up perfectly with another unit of equal size. After all I can see that is what you are trying to do and shift my units a little.
It is worth noting that a corner the corner contact is enough to kick off a disordered charge and a corner to corner contact is almost guaranteed if you are the same weidth. Admittedly there is also the option that the  disordered charge would only impact one unit.

It is more likely that your opponent will want to slam something into the detachments but now the detachments start with 12 attacks its harder to know what you can slam into them that they don't have a reasonable chance of beating.

[commandant]

Here is a guns and infantry list I made.   It does contain 90 infantry models models.   It sorts of spreads out with one infantry regiment supported by 1 cannon and 1 helblaster.
The General goes in one of the infantry blocks and the BSB goes in the other.   The level 1 wizard sort of floats around beside the two infantry blocks.

===
TVI list [2000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Empire of Man, Open War
===

++ Characters [556 pts] ++

General of the Empire [208 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Pistol
- General
- Demigryph
- The White Cloak
- Dragon Bow

Captain of the Empire [158 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Demigryph
- Talisman of Protection

Empire Engineer [65 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Pigeon bombs
- On foot

Master Mage [60 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Wizard [Level 1 Wizard]
- On foot
- Battle Magic

Empire Engineer [65 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Pigeon bombs
- On foot

++ Core Units [735 pts] ++

25 Veteran State Troops [260 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Veteran Sergeant (champion) [Witch Hunter's Ward]
- Standard bearer [Icon of Morr]
- Musician

10 State Troops [60 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

10 State Troops [60 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

25 Veteran State Troops [235 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Veteran Sergeant (champion) [Witch Hunter's Ward]
- Standard bearer
- Musician

10 State Troops [60 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

10 State Troops [60 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

++ Special Units [469 pts] ++

6 Inner Circle Knights of the White Wolf [219 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Wolf hammers
- Shields
- Full plate armour
- Barding
- Inner Circle Preceptor (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

Great Cannon [125 pts]
- Great cannon
- Hand weapons

Great Cannon [125 pts]
- Great cannon
- Hand weapons

++ Rare Units [240 pts] ++

Helblaster Volley Gun [120 pts]

Helblaster Volley Gun [120 pts]

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

[drweir4]

The demigryph characters can now be targetted in units which is pretty rough unfortunately

I don't understand the disrupted charge thing if the detachment is 15 strong? If it is that big they can just charge that instead of the parent then overrun - I though the idea was that the two overlap to a sufficient degree that when the enemy contacts and then tries to close the door they can't and end up touching the other unit = disrupted charge?

To do that i figured the smaller unit needed to be like 3 and then 2, sort of tessalating with the parent unit, but I've never seen this for real life, so might be wrong

[commandant]

Yes but the characters have a 2+5+ save which is a lot better than the unit.

For the disrupted charge the idea is to set up

D D D D D P P P P G G D D D D D
D D D D D P P P P G G D D D D D
                P P P P G G
                P P P P P P
                P P P P P P
                P P P P P P

and then the wings are at just a slight angle, a very very slight angle so that you can't charge without clipping the detachments.

[Clymer]

Finally got a game in today, I used a pretty different list. I’ll start a new post on that.

But one detail that came out is that since those flying monsters aren’t hitting you straight in the face anymore, they have a lot more incentive to head for a flank and roll up from the sides. It makes it tricky to keep your infantry blocks lined up like you hope. Those flying monsters got a combat nerf, but they definitely didn’t get a movement nerf.

[Footpatrol2]

I think 5 man detachments or 10 or 15 is fine. It depends on the list and what you want your supporting units to do.

I like the 5 man because it's basically nothing. They are there to protect my main scoring blocks from first charge, absorb impact hits so the main block doesn't have too, produce assisting cr with stand and shoots, set up disordered charges, if needed bog the midfield to allow more shooting, & redirect charge paths. All for 30 to 35 points...

I like handgunners for the side. I prioritize setting up the stand and shoots / disordered charges instead of actually trying to shoot when it's my turn. That way I get a 2 for one. Stand and shoot reaction and when combat begins disordered charge.

If the enemy is trying to kill my detachment great it's not on my scoring block unit. If only one model survives from enemy shooting fine. It can still do it's job & set up for the disordered charge.

I use my detachments as disposable but I also play my main battleline defensively. Taking larger units eats into points I want somewhere else. Also just because it's a 5 man doesn't mean it need to be in a 5x1. It can be a 4x2 or 3x2.