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The Empire at War => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: Algovil on February 22, 2011, 10:33:24 AM

Title: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Algovil on February 22, 2011, 10:33:24 AM
Hello, I posted this in a thread in the forum for new 8th army book. Since that forum seems almost empty, I put the post up here as well to get a discussion going, please understand that if this is not fitting, you are free to move or remove the thread. Please let me know if my english is difficult to understand.

I for one find all ideas here very interesting but actually not necessary, if we look at the army now there is good internal balance, just a few things need fixing, I go through my ideas on the different choices:

General of the Empire: Hm, tough one, he is no good choice now as the arch lector is much cheaper, maybe give him some kind of rule representing his tactical cunning, rerolling dice for the army or something.

Templar Grand Master: If he gave something extra to the unit of knights he would be fine, else, just reduce the cost by a few points!

Arch Lector and Warrior Priests: The only thing is that extra dispel dice is very powerful, maybe chanel 4+ instead, 1 chance for WP and 2 chance for AL? To compensate prayer really should work without powerdice, maybe prayers for warrior priest working on 3+ or 4+ and for Arch lector working on 2+ or 3+, that is a question of balance.

Captain of the Empre: Is quite fine?

Engineer: Looks good to me, BS5 would not hurt, at 65 points I'd take him anyday of the week for the rerolls!

Wizard lord/battle wizard: Just fine, does not need any altering

Halberdiers: Fine, heavy armour is not right for empire imo, they are more of HRE than a fuedal medieval state!

Spearmen: They really need something extra, but I am not a fan of changing too much, maybe they are alright after all, can not think of a good change, though something is needed.

Swordsmen: I3 is more like it, WS3 instead of 4 also looks better to me, with parry they have a place in the army anyway, with these nerfs they could be 5 points each, could this work?

Free company: Lower to 4 points and they could be worth taking!!

Handgunners: They are fine are they not?

Crossbowmen: They are fine! Both these have there places!

Archers/Huntsmen: Just a bit expensive, Bretonnia bowmen are 6 points with the same bs3, and they have longbows, of course you can not compare like this cause that is a strength of their army and should not be of the ours. Bretonnia bowmen are ws2 and ld5 as well, but, I would not say that 6 points is wrong! Huntsmen could well be 8 points!

Knights: Lower the cost, otherwise keep them the same, I would not mind seeing them at maybe 20 points each, with choice for Greatweapon for about 2 points! Would make lancearmed knights worthwile, while keeping the option for greatweapon armed, still cheaper than todays knights.

Greatswords: I think they are OK, I use them and do well.

Pistoliers: They are fine! Could use lowering in points by maybe just 1 or 2, OR we could let them use both pistols in close combat, or letting them fire both weapons without -1, cause there is -1 to hit now right?

Outriders: Not a fan, but they have their place.

Great Cannon: I am fine with the Cannon, it is quite unique for Empire, really a strength and should remain such

Mortar: Increase the points, is 100 to much?

Flagellants: I say they are OK, but I would not mind if they were a little bit cheaper, I never played with them so really can not say, what do you think?

Helblaster: As a lot of you suggest, I think it should be more deadly at short range, the suggestions in the thread is maybe a bit advanced, but I what about 3 different ranges, with -1 0 and +1 to hit repectively, it should also be able to stand and shoot if charged, not alway but by the rules, and then it would fire at +-0 to hit, since: shortest range = +1, and stand and shoot = -1.

Helstorm Rocket: Increase the cost just a tiny bit.

The Steam Tank: Not happy with the new rules, not because it made it better or worse but because it does not feels right beeing able to heal the stank or hit it with low strength attack. I would like to see something along these lines:
- Bring back as it was before, T6 immune to magic other then magic with strength value. See below as well!
- If the Cannon misfires do not wound the stank, that makes the cannon useless, instead an unique misfire chart maybe like this suggestion:
1-2 take 1 wound
3-4 cannot fire this turn or the next
5-6 cannot fire this turn
or we could put something fun in there, the stank running full throttle forward out of control for a turn for example!
- Maybe a special rule that the stank can not be harmed by anything with lower strength than 4-5, but this is no big thing with good armour save.
- Maybe, just maybe, another system for generating steam points.
Overall I would like to see it: Impossible to remove with one shot magic, difficult to kill but possible to harm, each wound should not lower the effectiveness as much as it does now, but still hurt it!

Of course, cost for command etc should be adjusted along with unit cost, and like they did in the new O&G book, musician should be more expensive, would like to see championupgrade cheaper instead, for example halberdier: standard bearer +8, muscian +8, champion +4. OR: standard bearer +8, musician +6, champion +6. OR just keep them all the same cost. +7 each or something.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: jaggedjimmyj on February 22, 2011, 12:51:02 PM
I'd say we're (currently) rather well off in this edition. And as long as other armybooks don't make us suffer by making every other army great I'd be content if we sat 8th ed out.
Sure I'd love some new infantry since we don't have much infantry diversity, and some mounted units could use a points drop, but at the end of the day we're ok.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Uryens de Crux on February 22, 2011, 01:42:13 PM
1. Allow archers to rank up or give them longbows.
2. Give Militia light armour options and missile weapon option (something like the rules knoblars get)
3. Give pistoleers their fusilade back

Thats it. Maybe drop the cost of all cavalry across the board a point or two.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 22, 2011, 01:44:04 PM
Up cost of Mortars.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Algovil on February 22, 2011, 02:10:16 PM
1. Allow archers to rank up or give them longbows.
2. Give Militia light armour options and missile weapon option (something like the rules knoblars get)
3. Give pistoleers their fusilade back

Thats it. Maybe drop the cost of all cavalry across the board a point or two.

Might have taken it a bit far with my wishlist, but tried to comment on each unit. Overall we are OK!

1. Longbows make them just like bretonnian, would not a point decrease be better?
2. Same here, point decrease to 4 points? Light armour turns them into statetroopers only worse, like the idea of missile weapon though! Pistol shots or the like!
3. Yes please!

Cheaper knights and more expensive mortars for internal balance.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Uryens de Crux on February 22, 2011, 02:13:34 PM
1. No, it makes them Empire archers ;)
Actually what I am thinking of is them actually having a point in being taken. As it stands they just arent worth putting on the table imo. Especially now skirmishers lose 360LOS and Shooting.

2. They used to have light armour IIRC (and I just want them to have the option for it.) Pistols or blunderbusses would be superb for them I think.



Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Siberius on February 22, 2011, 03:35:36 PM
I think archers should drop to 7pts and be able to rank up.

Huntsmen should have longbows and be able to be taken in 5+ units. Maybe even a +1 to ballistic skill. Stay at 10pts. I'd be happy with that.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Obi on February 22, 2011, 05:36:03 PM
Up cost of Mortars our artillery.
Fixed.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Mystic Force on February 22, 2011, 05:44:31 PM
Well they need to fix the halberdiers in our new army book because......  Oh they fixed the core rules, now we have less to complain about.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Uryens de Crux on February 22, 2011, 05:49:44 PM
Halberdiers should be unbreakable
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 22, 2011, 05:53:52 PM
The General should make his unit stubborn and greatswords unbreakable.

Or he should be able to choose from a couple of skills.

stubborn

devastating charge

ignore cover

etc.

Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Algovil on February 22, 2011, 06:09:47 PM
Sounds a bit much to me! Unbreakable, was it a joke I missed? We have flagellants for unbreakable, and we really do not need any more stubborn units in warhammer, it is tough enough with all the steafast blocks, do not want my units to sit stucked for several turns.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on February 22, 2011, 06:20:43 PM
It is much more fun that units now have some hacking and slashing going on between each other and not ...charge...break....done.

I like the increased stubborn.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Dosiere on February 22, 2011, 06:30:32 PM
Lords and Heroes:

Arch Lectors and Warrior Priests should function more like wizards.  Make them cheaper, channel instead of auto-dispel dice, and a +1/+2 to cast/dispel, take away the Hatred for their unit, but incorporate a unit hatred prayer.  They would lose some of the synergy they have with wizards right now, but it would allow you to not use a wizard, and would make them more intersting besides.

General/Captain are OK if you make some changes to the AL/WP.  Would be cool if they included some leadership/command upgrades that can be taken out of the cost of magic items (or not).  Not individual buffs like Vampire Powers but interesting little abilities that improve the performance of the army/unit around them in small ways.

Engineers: They are ok now, but something should be done about the re-rolls.  I think that this is the main reason that empire artillery is too good now. 

Core: - With opposing armies having 2-4 point Core infantry options that are actually pretty dang good(night goblins, slaves/clanrats) it makes me think that state troops are a little too expensive, but it's hard to say.

Don't like the idea of making swordsmen cheaper but with normal stats.  The WS 4 and I 4 are not really that big of a deal anyway, but it makes them unique among the core state troops.

Halberdiers are good.  I thought they might be over powered in 8th in a horde, but they really aren't.

Spearmen really should just get a 1/2 pt. upgrade option for shields.  Would make them slightly cheaper than Swordsmen.

Free Company should indeed be 4 points, with maybe a 1 pt  upgrade for light armor if you really want it.

Knights should be 1 pt cheaper and have initiative 4.  Not a big change I know, but they are almost OK even now, they just need a little bump to cope with 8th edition changes.

Archers/Huntsmen should be at least 1 pt cheaper.  It's really hard to include these guys in a list now, at 8+ pts a piece there are just so many other things that are better in the army book now.  At the very least bring back the 5+ minimum for Hunstmen.

Handgunners/Crossbowmen I guess are OK.  I dont take them much. 

Special:

Cannons/Mortars : Slight increase in cost of cannons, medium increase in cost to mortars.  Note however that in the new orc and goblin army book rock lobbers did not get more expensive.  I'm thinking 110 for cannons and 95 for mortars max.  Depends on if your engineers keep the re-rolls or not though.  Without the enigneer option I would say 105/85.

Pistoliers: Just make them cheaper please and/or give them back something like their fusillade rules.

Outriders: No idea really, never used them or played against them.  Maybe a pt or two cheaper since they lost 360 LoS.

Greatswords: A little expensive possibly.  I wouldn't mind seeing them a pt cheaper or - even better - just lower the cost of their command models a bit.  Whatever happens to them, for the love of all let them take a magic banner again.

Rare:

Helstorm:  Increase in cost.  125.

Helblaster: No idea right now.

Steam Tank : no idea, never really even read the rules for them.

Flagellants: OK, wouldn't mind them being a tad cheaper, they die SO fast.

Magic items:

It looks like when the Empire does get a new book, you can say goodbye to most of the magic items.  This could really hurt, since the ability to take some great defensive gear is really a strength of the Empire, and makes up for the horribly average stat line of even the Lord choices.


Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Algovil on February 22, 2011, 06:32:58 PM
It is much more fun that units now have some hacking and slashing going on between each other and not ...charge...break....done.

I like the increased stubborn.

I agree that steadfast and longer combats is great. But unbreakable and true stubborn should be rare, otherwise it becomes way too easy to lock up units forever.

Your suggestions sound sound (!) to me Dosiere. You are probably right about swordsmen, they are fine as of now. I do not agree on the nerf of Engineers, instead increase cost for warmachines, 110 for cannon and 90 for mortar sound good, they should be strong!
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on February 22, 2011, 06:42:58 PM
A new book should focus on those units that aren't taken very often and adress some internal and external balance issues. Right now everyone goes Halberdiers, cannon, mortar, Engineer, AL, done. Whether that makes for a solid force is besides the point, it's that a GotE with Spearmen, Archers and some other missile troops isn't seen much.

The GotE needs some nifty special rules, perhaps akin to the IG officer's commands. Re-roll table side, who goes first, redeploy one unit, dunno.

The cost difference between the AL and WP must be addressed. Right now, an AL is simply the more cost efficient choice.

Hochlands...who takes these? Nobody. No idea what to do about them though. Handgunners and Crossbows could be a point or two cheaper.

Spearmen are a defensive unit, give them HA, problem solved.

Knights, Pistoliers, Outriders, Greatswords and Flagellants all need to cost a bit less. While all of them are viable to some extent in some armies, all of them except for Greatswords are rarely taken, since some other unit does it better. Greatswords still die like flies to anything S4+ or AP. I could live quite well with WS 5 or more attacks or I4 knights or Ld 9 GS that can take a magic banner on their own.

The Stank needs a complete overhaul. It's way too complicated for no good reason and IMO too expensive.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Johann Q Peasant on February 22, 2011, 07:32:05 PM
A humble suggestion, my lords,

1. Lower points of Xbows, handguns, and Archers.
2. Make artillery more expensive. (slightly, not double)
3. Make cavalry a bit cheaper (1 or 2 points)
4. Make AL and Altar more expensive.

But the biggest Suggestion of all...

ELIMINATE SPEARMEN
REPLACE WITH PIKEMEN.

Give them special rules so that they cant manuever easily, and fold up if hit in the flank. Light armor, 6 points a pop. 

GW sells models, and we finally become a renaissance army.


Johann's Glorious Empire Dream

I stand at a gaming table, my enemy laughing as I place my puny human infantry in front of his Lizardmen Saurus, reveling in the slaughter to come. As I place the last State troop unit down, his smile crumbles, and his laugh dies in his throat... for I've placed down my brand new gloriously painted deadly 75 Strong unit ofIMPERIAL PIKEMEN , surrounded by handgunners and swordsmen.  How can he take on this deadly human unit, drilled to perfection?  Tears well up in his eyes, as he runs away in shame. Trumpets sound around me, the wind blowing through my hair, as fellow gamers look in awe at my Army, secretly wishing they chose empire instead of their stupid rats, their jealous eyes taking in the sight of bosomy women commenting on the length of my pikes, wanting secret lessons on generalship, their hands on my....

*cough* ... I'd like to see GW come out with Imperial pikemen. They dont even have to be a good unit. I just want to have the option. Spears make no sense whatsoever for the army.
1.)Fit in with the Empire's Renaissance theme? Check.
2.)Great way to sell more figures? Check.
3.) at stupid prices? double check.
4.) How can they not bring them out...
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Nexus on February 22, 2011, 07:54:39 PM
That's worth a LOL!  :icon_lol:

Pikemen would be cool, but other than that I mostly think shooters should be cheaper (or better), cav a bit cheaper and the Altar brought up to 200pts. It's ridiculously cheap right now. The balance between state troops I'm not too concerned with. The difference between swords/halbs/spears is so tiny it doesn't matter. It just makes my army look more varied because everyone else have rebuilt their swordsmen into halberdiers.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Mathi Alfblut on February 22, 2011, 08:03:46 PM
I am with you, Johann! Pikes for the people! I am assembling a unit of ECW pikes to use as spearmens, but hey, it would  be smashing to use them as proper pikes!

Now we just have to wait until Philly and the pikehaters comes running!  :icon_razz:
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Shadowlord on February 22, 2011, 09:17:17 PM
No need, they cut the pikes from the rulebook...

PhillyT - Mathi & Co = 1-0
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: MrDWhitey on February 22, 2011, 09:18:27 PM
 :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: astorre on February 22, 2011, 11:22:39 PM
I like our book & dont want them to touch it for fear they will make it worse. Yes, our artillery is cheap, which makes up for our infantry and knights being too expensive. It all evens out in the end.... (and I really hope they don't touch warrior priests, they are great how they are.)
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Algovil on February 23, 2011, 07:33:50 AM
Great post Johann Q Peasant! That...is....Brilliant  :Ohmy:

I rather see the army stay as is, instead of freaking it up, but there is rooms for improvement and I think you got them all.

Warrior Priest and Arch Lector are quite expensive already and I find it hard to protect them, only heavy armour etc, therefore I suggest changing their abilities before increasing cost.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Eighty on February 23, 2011, 08:11:29 AM
Idea's I like:

lower cost of crossbows/handgunners by 1 point - they are bs3 for sigmars sake!!

huntsmen can stay at 10 points for bs 4 (shouldnt they at least have something going for them) perhaps a longbow upgrade for 1 point

halberds with optional light armor (so 4 points, 1 point for light armor.. yes.. yes that is what i like)

swordsmen - base 5 points to bring in line with the rest of the rabble.

spearmen - would it be a tough sell too perhaps give them heavy armor? i like the idea of pikes, but dont know what that would mean in gaming turns (having never played when they were allowed)

cheaper cavalry all around! our knights are pretty terriblah in every sense. a higher ws or initiative would be a nice incentive to give them lances instead of greatswords

general of the empire - i agree with everyone above, another useful power or ability to make me not cry when i include a general just for a 10 point banner

greatswords - yes! optional magical banner yes! otherwise pretty happy with current setup.

artillery - leave it alone! i mean sure for 'balance' sake it should be more expensive, but i love my war machines!



Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on February 23, 2011, 08:57:57 AM
I think it is sometimes possible to cater to different tastes. For example, some players would prefer cheaper but unarmoured Halberdiers, as a 6+ isn't doing much at the best of times, others like their armour. Why not make them 4 points naked, 0.5 points for LA and 1 point for HA?

Warrior Priest and Arch Lector are quite expensive already and I find it hard to protect them, only heavy armour etc, therefore I suggest changing their abilities before increasing cost.

The Warrior Priest is too expensive. DD or not but 90 points for such a squishy model is too much. The AL however is too cheap or too powerful compared to the TGM / L4 / GotE as a general. That's nearly always the case when you see one - or three - pop up in each and every army list.

Making Priests into pseudo-wizards is lame.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: DonKarst0n on February 23, 2011, 09:55:28 AM
I'd be definitely for the introduction of pikemen. Would be a great view on the battlefield and it just makes sense that at some point someone might think: "We have cannons... now we could make our spears longer."

I second the notion that we again need something like the fusillade for the pistoliers and a major change on the GotE.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Gneisenau on February 23, 2011, 10:22:50 AM
Just model pikes and use them as spears, then!

Problem solved. Unless you dig up some historical sources telling that pikemen attacked in four ranks or whatever. Which I'm sure somebody will do.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: DonKarst0n on February 23, 2011, 10:26:23 AM
I am doing it already.  :happy:
Ricco's pikemen as well as Perry's mercenaries will be forming two solid blocks of spearmen... but I will test pike rules.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Algovil on February 23, 2011, 10:32:08 AM
Warrior Priest 80p, Arch Lector 140? Does that look good?
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on February 23, 2011, 10:36:28 AM
For whatever it's worth, that looks fine to me.

Since there won't be a new AB for years and nobody really knows what the designers think, it's all moot. They could put some Tyranid player in charge of it for all we know...  :evil:
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Eighty on February 23, 2011, 12:51:56 PM
i always thought they were so similar in point value because they have the exact same stat line (except ldr of course)

if your gonna bump up his cost at least make him a better hero for the price! s5? ws5? i don't care just not all 4's !!

he is the laughing stock of my table (and then they cry because i brought 4 extra dd ..|., you WoC !)
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Gneisenau on February 23, 2011, 12:54:16 PM
AL isn't underpriced in my opinion. The WA is.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on February 23, 2011, 01:11:16 PM
For 35 points, you get +1W, +1 Ld, +1 DD and many more options. He can be the army general and supplier of DD at the same time. That's why he's the no-brainer option over a different General and a Warrior Priest. Neither the Ancient Heirloom special rule nor the better fighting stats of the TGM are good enough to compensate adequately IMO and any combination that gives you Ld 9 and 2 DD is going to cost way more.
Title: Re: Changes for the new armybook.
Post by: Steerpike on February 23, 2011, 09:56:55 PM
There goes my wishlist for the new army list.

Lords:
General
Templar Grand Master
Warrior priest
Wizard lord

Heroes:
Captain
Battle wizard
Witch Hunter
Engineer

Core:
State troopers (must take shield, lance, halberd, crossbow and/or handgun)
Archers
Knights

Special:
Pistoliers
Mortar
Great cannon
Greatswords
Flagellants
Pikemen

Rare:
Steam Tank
Hellblaster
Ogres (maneaters?)
Halflings (scout archers)

Add some dwarfs as an option for warmachines crewmen and we have again the old multicultural Empire.

I leave the units options and abilities to each ones taste (except robohorse technology has been suddenly forgotten!)