home

Author Topic: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?  (Read 3434 times)

Offline J T Ripper NZ

  • Posts: 10
Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« on: June 08, 2012, 03:03:41 AM »
Hello,
I was in a tournament a few days ago and was battling a WoC army. My Steam tank was engaged in CC with a WoC chariot. On my turn before anything else I generated 3 steam points and put them into grind attacks. The question that came up was do the grind attacks happen before or after charges?

The tank moves in the compulsory move phase (after charges), but the empire book I believe states the grinds happen at the start of movement phase.
I had flanked charged the Chariot with a horde of halberdiers before the grind attacks and then killed the chariot with grind attacks giving the horde block a free over run into the flank of his large WoC block. My opponent then questioned when grind attacks happen. In the end the decision was made that the grind attack happens before charges, therefore the chariot was removed and no flank charged could be declared.  :eusa_wall:

Is this ruling correct? When do grind attacks happen? :unsure:

Offline Daymz

  • Posts: 153
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2012, 05:12:12 AM »
Funny, ... I just have the book with me and it states what I didn't expect: "If the steamtank begins it's movement phase in base-to-base contact with an enemy unit, it cannot move, but instead (...) grind its opponents beneath its wheels. Choose an enemy unit in base-to-base contact; this unit immediately receives D3 S6 Impact hits (...)"

Not a direct quote, had to translate it. I have the German army book, being as Swiss as I am.

So, to me it clearly is after charges. The STank's movement phase comes later than charges, and only then does it apply.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 05:14:53 AM by Daymz »

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

  • Posts: 1033
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2012, 06:07:42 AM »
Yes. They occur in the movement phase so your halberds would charge, then the grind would occur.

If the unit was destroyed by the grind attacks then I think the halberds could overrun at the end of the combat as normal.
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian

Offline Daymz

  • Posts: 153
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2012, 06:26:48 AM »
Yes. They occur in the movement phase so your halberds would charge, then the grind would occur.

If the unit was destroyed by the grind attacks then I think the halberds could overrun at the end of the combat as normal.

Yup. I think there is a ruling, or an FAQ, or something, that actually states what happens in such cases (when the enemy unit in CC is destroyed before CC phase even began, as can frequently happen especially due to magic). Don't have the BRB with me (can't win 'em all!) but I think it's even stated in there.

So basically, yup, your halberdiers could overrun because it would be considered that the enemy unit was destroyed within the first round of combat - allowing them to overrun just as they could if they had actually killed the chariot themselves.

Sorry, buddy, for losing out on such an opportunity said tournament!  :mellow:

Offline J T Ripper NZ

  • Posts: 10
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2012, 06:31:39 AM »
 :::cheers:::

thanks heaps. I will point this out at the next tournament I play in.

I managed a 9/11 lost so I wasn't to cut up. Though if the ruling had gone my way it would have probably been a mighty victory to the EMPIRE.......
:icon_biggrin:


Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9370
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2012, 07:37:19 AM »
The Army Book specifies that you choose the amount of Steam Points for any Steam Tank Movement at the start of the Compulsery Moves sub-phase (i.e. after the Charge phase). For grinding, you also need to spend Steam Points: ergo it happens at the start of the Compulsery Moves sub-phase. Note also that the AB states "if the Steam Tank starts its Movement phase" - not the Movement phase.

As to the FAQ Daymz mentioned:

BRB Official Update Version 1.5, p.6:

Q: If I charge an enemy and they are wiped out before the Close Combat phase, can I choose to either Overrun or Reform From Victory? If I can, when does this occur? (p58)
A: Yes. This occurs at the start of the Close Combat phase before any blows have been struck.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

  • Imperial Tactician
  • Posts: 2320
  • Never leave the Province without it...
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2012, 08:55:48 AM »
Fid v Sig-  you are a good piece of gear to have around.   :::cheers:::

Always a no-nonsense font of knowledge on rules.

If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9370
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2012, 09:34:11 AM »
Thank you for the compliment.  :::cheers:::
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Steve-O

  • Posts: 271
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2012, 05:08:41 PM »
Could I get confirmation on another related point?  If I charge in with the STank, the grind attacks happen in the movement phase, but it still gets d6 impact hits in the CC phase, correct?
Much like Communism, a level three wizard is a waste of everyone's time and will, in due course, fail miserably.

Offline Syn Ace

  • Posts: 4733
  • Misinterpreting GW rules since 1991
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2012, 05:29:28 PM »
Well, you'd get the Impact hits at the start of the CC phase the turn you charge, but I believe you couldn't get grind attacks that turn because the STank has to be in contact with the enemy at the start its movement phase to grind. But you could use the steam gun.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with assholes.

— William Gibson

Offline Steve-O

  • Posts: 271
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2012, 05:59:03 PM »
Ahhh, glad I asked, been playing this incorrectly.
Much like Communism, a level three wizard is a waste of everyone's time and will, in due course, fail miserably.

Offline Eighty

  • Posts: 1038
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2012, 10:06:41 PM »
Well, you'd get the Impact hits at the start of the CC phase the turn you charge, but I believe you couldn't get grind attacks that turn because the STank has to be in contact with the enemy at the start its movement phase to grind. But you could use the steam gun.

plus you have already used the 3 maximum points in the engine to get there right?

this is an eye opening thread. so basicly tanks do not provide much in the way of combat res besides the steam gun?

Trumpets sound around me, the wind blowing through my hair, as fellow gamers look in awe at my Army, secretly wishing they chose empire instead of their stupid rats

Offline Syn Ace

  • Posts: 4733
  • Misinterpreting GW rules since 1991
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2012, 10:25:57 PM »
Yep. You can go for the max 3D3 Strength 6 grind attacks, but they don't seem to apply to combat resolution. Or you can use the Steam Gun 2D6 S4. Grinding you're going for casualties and acting as a tar pit. Steam Gun, you're still tar pitting, but you have a chance of breaking them.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with assholes.

— William Gibson

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

  • Posts: 1033
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2012, 10:26:40 PM »
No, not much in the way of combat resolution.

Think of the grind attacks as being like impact hits (except without combat resolution). They go before anyone else in the combat, including units that strike first.
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9370
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2012, 10:46:11 PM »
As indicated above:

- You get impact hits on the charge, which count towards combat resolution.
- In subsequent rounds, only wounds made by the Steam Gun will count towards resolution.
- Grinding does not happen in the CC phase and therefore does not contribute to combat resolution.

Note: the explosion of the Steam Tank as a result of a Steam Boiler mishap does not contribute to (multiple) combat resolution either.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Syn Ace

  • Posts: 4733
  • Misinterpreting GW rules since 1991
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2012, 10:59:01 PM »
While grinding does not contribute to CC -- it does S6 hits, and as noted above, you get to go before combat, so screw everyone's high Initiative.!
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with assholes.

— William Gibson

Offline TexasYankee

  • Posts: 1186
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2012, 11:09:55 PM »
- Grinding does not happen in the CC phase and therefore does not contribute to combat resolution.

Whoa! I totally missed that! I thought it still did grinding attacks like impact hits before anyone else in CC, just generated those attacks differently now . . . and here I was thinking I could read . . . back to the book for me . . .
So, what would you guys do if some dude came at you with a belt that way?
Make sure I've got the safeword memorised.

Offline J T Ripper NZ

  • Posts: 10
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2012, 11:32:10 PM »
As indicated above:

- You get impact hits on the charge, which count towards combat resolution.
- In subsequent rounds, only wounds made by the Steam Gun will count towards resolution.
- Grinding does not happen in the CC phase and therefore does not contribute to combat resolution.

Note: the explosion of the Steam Tank as a result of a Steam Boiler mishap does not contribute to (multiple) combat resolution either.

So it would be something like this:

My turn 1
Generate 3 steams
Put into engine (in compulsory move phase, after charges)
Move tank  - 3d6, if it comes into contact with an enemy unit it causes 1d6 + 3d3 impact hits, BUT these are not resolved until the START of the Combat phase and contribute to CC resolution?

*I have not been playing it this way as I did the impact hits in the compulsory move phase just after the tank moves and makes contact with an enemy unit*

My turn 2
Generate 3 steams
Put into engine (in compulsory move phase after charges)
From book “If the Steam Tank starts its Movement phase in base contact with an enemy”[…] “grind foes”[…]”it immediately suffers D3 Strength 6 hits”
SO…. The grind attacks are done at this stage during the compulsory move phase and hence there is NO CC resolution added.

Does this sound like the right sequence?

Offline Steve-O

  • Posts: 271
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2012, 03:46:35 AM »
As indicated above:

- You get impact hits on the charge, which count towards combat resolution.
- In subsequent rounds, only wounds made by the Steam Gun will count towards resolution.
- Grinding does not happen in the CC phase and therefore does not contribute to combat resolution.

Note: the explosion of the Steam Tank as a result of a Steam Boiler mishap does not contribute to (multiple) combat resolution either.

So it would be something like this:

My turn 1
Generate 3 steams
Put into engine (in compulsory move phase, after charges)
Move tank  - 3d6, if it comes into contact with an enemy unit it causes 1d6 + 3d3 impact hits, BUT these are not resolved until the START of the Combat phase and contribute to CC resolution?

*I have not been playing it this way as I did the impact hits in the compulsory move phase just after the tank moves and makes contact with an enemy unit*

My turn 2
Generate 3 steams
Put into engine (in compulsory move phase after charges)
From book “If the Steam Tank starts its Movement phase in base contact with an enemy”[…] “grind foes”[…]”it immediately suffers D3 Strength 6 hits”
SO…. The grind attacks are done at this stage during the compulsory move phase and hence there is NO CC resolution added.

Does this sound like the right sequence?

I think you have it.  After reading the rules, with the initial charge into an enemy unit, it only mentions "impact hits" which which should count toward combat resolution.  In subsequent rounds, grind attacks happen out before the CC phase and don't generate CR.
Much like Communism, a level three wizard is a waste of everyone's time and will, in due course, fail miserably.

Offline Cpt. Wham

  • Posts: 286
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2012, 05:11:07 AM »
The round when you charge you get steampoints used*d3+d6 impact in the combat phase.   In all subsequent rounds your grinds attacks take place in the movement phase. 

I happily killed 11 phoenix guard with a ST charge and made them flee.  Hooray for insane amounts of impact hits!

Offline Syn Ace

  • Posts: 4733
  • Misinterpreting GW rules since 1991
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2012, 09:34:33 AM »
The one good thing about grind attacks happening in movement, you can kill higher initiative troops without them getting to swing first, which can possibly save the STank when it gets down to the nitty gritty and it only has a couple wounds left.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with assholes.

— William Gibson

Offline AlphaKrab

  • Posts: 35
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2012, 09:50:47 AM »
Sadly last edition grinding was considered impact hits which meant it hit first AND counted towards combat res, BUT the turn it charges it still counts towards combat res only the turns after the charge does it happen outside of regular combat.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9370
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: Steam tank grind attacks before or after charges?
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2012, 09:59:36 AM »
You cannot grind on a charge - if that is what you are implying. For grinding, the Steam tank has to be already in base contact with an enemy, when it starts its Movement phase.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)