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Author Topic: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?  (Read 31667 times)

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- New Witch Hunter Warband rules.
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2009, 10:07:21 AM »
How about adding sigmarite warhammers to the equipment list, to be used by the priest only? It seems unfair and illogical that only sisters of sigmar can have those.

Sigmarite hammer + hammer of sigmar prayer = strength six with + 1 to wound undead = auto-wounding vampires! And causing double wounds!



Also, how about a recovery roll for equipment when a hero or henchman dies? Maybe on a 4+ the item is recovered by the warband. That would make it a little less painful when you lose a gang member.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 12:41:19 PM by rufus sparkfire »
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Offline Von Kurst

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- New Witch Hunter Warband rules.
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2009, 12:58:35 PM »
How about adding sigmarite warhammers to the equipment list, to be used by the priest only? It seems unfair and illogical that only sisters of sigmar can have those.

Sigmarite hammer + hammer of sigmar prayer = strength six with + 1 to wound undead = auto-wounding vampires! And causing double wounds!

Also, how about a recovery roll for equipment when a hero or henchman dies? Maybe on a 4+ the item is recovered by the warband. That would make it a little less painful when you lose a gang member.
Sigmarite Hammer--yes.  (we do play that a roll of 1 always fails if you need a 1 or less and a 6 always fails if you need 6 or less, must note that somewhere...)

Recover equipment--Available to the Hochland Bandits from the Nemesis Crown supplement as a special skill of the Looters.
Added as a general special skill for Pirates in the Sartosa supplement. 

With the Looter skill you may recover the equipment of any fallen warrior if you make the difficulty roll.  Great for multi-player games.  Note the looter must not go out of action to use the skill.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- New Witch Hunter Warband rules.
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2009, 01:15:41 PM »
I suppose it's fair enough for a 'one' to fail. I just thought auto-wounding would be funny. I wonder if I can convince the other members of my group to let me buy sigmarite hammers?

I haven't seen a Sartosa or nemesis crown supplement. Do you have a link to those? Thanks!
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- New Witch Hunter Warband rules.
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2009, 09:47:06 PM »
Personally, I think it's fluffy to give the WP access to the sigmarite warhammer, but it also sort of steps on the toes of the Sister's of Sigmar.  After all ,it's one of thier signature weapons (like the chain whip).

If I did allow it, I'd make it a rare item, and hard to find, to make it a little more fair to the sisters. 

As it stands, I want to see how the new witch hunters list works before I tinker with it any further. 

By the way, if any of you use these rules, please let me know.  I'd like to know how they do in your campaign and what, if anything, needs working on. 
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- Opinions on Chaos Warbands?
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2009, 09:51:08 PM »
By the way...

do any of you guys have experience with the Poseessed or Carnival of Chaos warbands?

I'm curious to know how they do.  Both seem pretty powerful, but rather slow to start up.  Nurgles rot seems downright broken, but I'd like to hear from somebody who's actually with them or against them in a campaign setting.

I suppose we might as well throw beastmen on the pile too, since we're looking at chaos warbands. :icon_mrgreen:
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- New Witch Hunter Warband rules.
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2009, 10:01:12 PM »
Personally, I think it's fluffy to give the WP access to the sigmarite warhammer, but it also sort of steps on the toes of the Sister's of Sigmar.  After all ,it's one of thier signature weapons (like the chain whip).

I'd be fine with that if there was any sort of reason for it. I can't think of one.

It's a sigmarite warhammer. He's a priest of sigmar. If he doesn't get one, why do a random bunch of nuns? It makes no sense!


Quote
do any of you guys have experience with the Poseessed or Carnival of Chaos warbands?

Dazgrim is playing possessed in our campaign.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2009, 01:35:08 AM »
I posted this once a while back in a Mordheim thread, but since there's a lot of attention to the development and adaptation I think it may be a good time to pull this from the depths.  Let me know what you think.  I've received some feedback on it, but have yet to implement any of the changes suggested.

Sorry, it's quite long.  I hope to use this soon as I'm planning on starting up a Mordheim campaign.  If nothing else, it will give me a chance to playtest it.

Wissenland Warband

Wissenlanders are a proud and stubborn people.  Often left to fend for themselves in the mountain passes, forests and hills of their home province, they have become a somber bunch.  Knowing that they often cannot rely upon help from neighboring provinces for aid, they have resigned themselves to doing things their own way.  Lacking the wealth of neighboring Reikland, Averland and Nuln they use home made weapons, often utilizing tools meant for farming, not warfare.  Over the centuries, they have refined hit and run and ambush tactics to confuse, redirect and destroy enemies that dare defile their beloved land.

SPECIAL RULES
Distrust of the City Dwellers:  Wissenland’s impoverished state makes the people very wary and distrustful of those from large cities or wealthy provinces (all referred to as City Dwellers).  The exploitation and neglect that the province has endured has caused Wissenlanders to believe that the only time anyone from a prosperous area would interact with them is when trickery is afoot.  Besides, City Dwellers are soft and poor fighters. 

To reflect this, Wissenlanders may not be allied to any province that is deemed richer than they (Reikland, Averland, etc.) or any warband from a city-state. 

Price of Steel:  Swords and heavy armor are seen as luxuries and are more expensive than simpler weapons (spears, halberds, bows, etc.). 

To reflect this, all ‘luxury’ items in the armory have a raised price while the simpler weapons are at a reduced price.  Consult Equipment Lists.  This rule does not apply to Dwarfs as they themselves are usually some of the more wealthy members of a Wissenland warband.

Steady Aim:  Raised from birth with bow in hand, Wissenlanders are expert marksmen.  To reflect this, the normal -1 modifier for shooting at long range is negated.  This rule does not apply to Dwarfs.

Choice of Warriors
A Wissenland warband is comprised of soldiers of the provincial army.  Whether dispatched by a minor noble or on a quest for their own fortunes, they scour the streets of Mordheim relying on their skills that have gotten them this far in life.  A warband must include a minimum of three models.  You have 500 gold crowns available to spend.  The maximum number of warriors in the warband may never exceed 15.

Heroes
Captain: Your warband must have one Captain.  No more, no less!
Sergeant: Your warband may include a single Sergeant.
Ranger: Your warband may include up to two Rangers.
Lads: Your warband may include up to two Lads.

Henchmen
Regulars: Your warband may include any number of Regulars.
Irregulars: Your warband may include any number of Irregulars.
Huntsmen: Your warband may include no more than six Huntsmen.
Dwarfs:  Your warband may include no more than three Dwarfs.


STARTING EXPERIENCE
The Captain starts with 20 experience.
The Sergeant starts with 10 experience.
The Ranger starts with 4 experience.
The Lad start with 0 experience.


SPECIAL EQUIPMENT
Trinkets of the gods:  Wissenlanders are a superstitious bunch and while at home they often visit the different shrines of the town in their daily routine to pay homage to the gods.  Each trinket may be bought to protect the wearer in different ways.

Hammer of Sigmar
(10 + 1D6 gc / rare 4)
The sign of the patron deity, Sigmar.  These are the most common trinkets found amongst Wissenlanders.  These holy objects have been blessed by priests of Sigmar and grant a 6+ ward save to the wearer.

Raven Skull of Morr
(25 + 2D6 gc / rare 8)
Walking through the City of the Damned leads many a soldier to pay good money for protection against the undead.  These symbols of Morr allow the wearer to receive a +1 to his roll to test against fear of Undead enemies.

Shallya’s Mercy Pendant
(45 + 2D6 gc / rare 9)
At the end of a battle in which a warrior is presumed dead, the pendant of Shallya glows faintly, restoring the life to the wounded soldier. 

At the end of a battle, a warrior that wears this pendant may roll a single D6.  If a 4+ is rolled, the warrior has all of his wounds restored, Shallya's healing has brought him back from the brink.  If the roll is unsuccessful the warrior is too far gone and passes into Morr’s realm.

Verena’s Necklace
(15 + 2D6 gc / rare 8)
If attacked and killed in close combat, the wearer of Verena’s necklace receives just enough strength to lash out one last time in attempt to enact justice.  Make attacks as normal.  Note, this may allow two attacks a turn if the wearer was the one who attacked first.

Myrmidia’s Smile
(50 + 3D6 gc / rare 9)
A small pendant of a sun, often referred to as Myrmidia’s smile.  She is worshipped mostly in the Border Princes, but she also has a following in the southern Empire.  She is the goddess of the science of warfare, tactics.  Wearers of the pendant receive an increase of +1 to WS and I in battle.


Wissenlander skill tables
                        Combat   Shooting      Academic Strength   Speed     Special
          Captain       X           X              X          X          X      
          Sergeant        X               X            X
          Ranger           X                                    X
          Lad        X           X                                        X

________________________________________HEROES________________________________

1 Captain
60 gold crowns to hire
A veteran of many campaigns, a captain from Wissenland is head strong and wise. His cunning has undoubtedly gained the trust of his men, for small bands are frequently asked to act as a diverting force to stop a larger enemy presence.  Often times these can end horribly, but those that manage to learn their craft quickly become revered and honored as astute tacticians.  Many a tale is sung in the taverns of the land telling of bold captains and the men that dared follow.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4      4       4    3    3    1    4   1     8

Weapons/Armor:   A Captain may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Regular/Irregular Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES
Supreme Confidence:  The precision and audacity needed to execute some of the ambushes and raids attempted by Wissenlanders is enough to frighten the most hardened of soldiers.  Few would put themselves in such grave danger if not for the unbending trust that each warrior has in his captain.  To reflect this, any warrior within the captain’s command radius of 6” may reroll failed psychology tests.  This does not apply to Dwarfs as it takes a very great task for a human to inspire a Dwarf.

0 – 1 Sergeant
35 gold crowns to hire
Every good leader needs a capable second in command.  These men have been in the service of the army for many years, often serving with their commanding officer for most of their careers (if not lives).  Similar to the captain, these men have gained the confidence of their comrades after countless engagements together. 

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4      3       3    3    3    1   3    1     7

Weapons/Armor:  A Sergeant may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Regular/Irregular Equipment list.


0 – 2 Rangers
35 gold crowns to hire
These men have been raised from birth to know the land and shoot a bow.  They are usually found at the head of a band of huntsmen, patrolling the woods and mountains of the province.  With years of knowledge at their disposal, they are adept at ambush tactics, a method of keeping the enemy back as they are not renowned for their close combat abilities.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4      2       4    3    3    1   3    1     7

Weapons/Armor:  A Ranger may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Huntsmen Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES
Longbows:  The need to keep the enemy away for as long as possible is a vital aspect of a Ranger’s well being.  To reflect this any Ranger can upgrade his bow to a longbow at no additional cost.

Set Traps:  Rangers are expert trappers and hunters and these skills can be put to great use in the ruins of Mordheim. A Ranger may set a trap if he spends a turn doing nothing else (he may not set traps if he’s just recovered from being Knocked Down). Place a marker in base contact with the Ranger. When a model, friend or foe, moves within 2" of the marker he risks setting off the trap – roll a D6. On a score of 3+ he has triggered the trap and suffers a S4 hit (note that the Ranger won’t trigger his own traps). If the trap did not wound the model or it didn’t trigger, the ‘victim’ may finish his move otherwise he is placed knocked Down or Stunned 2" from the marker. Regardless whether the trap was triggered or not, the marker is removed.

0 - 2 Lads
15 gold crowns to hire
These are impetuous young men who have taken dour tales told and spun them into romantic accounts.  Their naivety makes them eager for adventure but they are soon brought to reality within a few days of their first journey.  Still, the harsh life is enough to keep them around as it beats farm life.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4     2        2    3    3    1   3    1     6

Weapons/Armor:  A Lad may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Regular/Irregular Equipment list.

 
________________________________________HENCHMAN______________________________

Regulars
25 gold crowns to hire
These men have left the farms and villages to join the standing army.  A life of adventure and danger awaits them, but the reward outweighs the risk.  The promise of steady pay, warm meals and a tent to sleep in is enough to attract many lads to the rigors of army life.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4     3        3    3    3    1    3   1     7

Weapons/Armor:   A Regular may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Regular/Irregular Equipment list.

Irregulars
20 gold crowns to hire
Conscripts, volunteers, brigands, retired army veterans.  They serve in a time of need and most have little to no training to rely upon.  Their weapons are rudimentary, yet effective.  When joining a warband it shows that times are desperate, be it to answer the call in repelling an invasion force or the search for coins to quell the hunger pangs of small children at home.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4      3       3    3    3    1    3   1     6

Weapons/Armor:  An Irregular may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Regular/Irregular Equipment list.

0 – 6 Huntsmen
30 gold crowns to hire
Huntsmen form a vital role in the army of Wissenland.  They are often the tip of the spear in the defense as they are the advanced warning for invading forces of orcs, goblins and the occasional Bretonnian.  They are not constituted into the regular army and are not bound by the same discipline as the battle line troops.  This is not usually a problem however, as they are known for their discipline, a much needed asset when coming danger close to enemy formations.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4      3       3    3    3    1   3    1     7

Weapons/Armor: A Huntsmen may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Huntsmen Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULE:
Longbows:  See Ranger section.

0 – 3 Dwarfs
40 gold crowns to hire
The close proximity to the Grey and Black Mountains allows constant contact between Wissenlanders and Dwarfs.  Upon occasion Dwarfs will settle down in the towns and villages, establishing shops and providing services that only they could give.  They are tough and determined warriors, adventurous and very stubborn.  They are a great asset to any captain as their wisdom and courage is unmatched.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             3     4        3    3    4    1    2    1     9

Weapons/Armor:  A Dwarf may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Dwarf Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES
Consult Dwarf special rules

Mercenary Equipment Lists
The following lists are used by Wissenland warbands to pick their weapons:

 
Regular/Irregular EQUIPMENT LIST
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Mace . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Hammer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 gc
Morning star . . . . . . . . . . . 17 gc
Double-handed weapon . . 17 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 gc
Halberd . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 gc
Missile Weapons
Crossbow . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 gc
Pistol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc (40 for a brace)
Dueling pistol . . . . . . . . . 30 gc (60 for a brace)
Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 gc
Armor
Light armor . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Heavy armor . . . . . . . . . . 60 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Buckler . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10 gc

Huntsmen EQUIPMENT LIST
This list is for Rangers/Huntsmen only
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Mace . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Hammer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 gc
Missile Weapons
Crossbow . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 gc
Pistol . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20 gc (40 for a brace)
Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 gc
Long bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Blunderbuss . . . . . . . . . . . 40 gc
Handgun . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45 gc
Hunting rifle . . . . . . . . . . 210 gc
Armor
Light armor . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc

Dwarf Warrior EQUIPMENT LIST
This list is for Dwarfs only
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1st free/2 gc
Mace . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Hammer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Axe . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Dwarf axe* . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  . . . . . 10 gc
Double-handed weapon . . . . . . . .  . . . 15 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . 10 gc
Halberd . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  . 10 gc
Gromril weapon** . . . . . .. . 3 times the cost
Missile Weapons
Pistol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Armor
Light armor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Heavy armor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  . . . 50 gc
Gromril armor*** . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
 
Access to Dwarfen axes.

***A Dwarf that lives in the mountains has better access to Gromril armor and the cost would normally be 75 gc.  With the lack of material in the towns and villages of Wissenland, Gromril armor is more expensive to produce.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2009, 10:59:35 AM »
Six heroes!

Dwarfs!

Special items!

Sorry, but I think you've fallen into the trap of including too many special rules and benefits. To be honest, the Averland list is already quite suitable for Wissenland. That or the Reikland list.


Allowing six heroes is unfair. Really unfair.

Also, if any warband were going to have dwarfs, it would be Middenheim (comparatively large dwarf population). You could also say that Reikland and Averland have just as good an excuse to have dwarfs as Wissenland (just as close to the same mountains). And it's not as if Marienburg warbands can include elves.


- Price of steel rule: irrelevant, since once the campaign starts you pay normal market prices.

- Steady aim: should be with bows only, not all missile weapons.

- Trinkets of the gods: what makes these specific to Wissenland? Especially since they can only be bought in Mordheim once the campaign is running...

- free bow to longbow upgrade: how does this work? You buy a bow on the Mordheim market, and it magically changes into a longbow?

- would a mercenary warband really include irregulars?


Sorry, I didn't want to be too negative!
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2009, 11:26:54 AM »
It's not negative at all.  I like to hear this sort of feedback!  I've never played the game that much so I realize that this could be completely unbalanced.  And probably something I should've saved until I had a bit more experience.

When looking it over before I posted it I realized I was going to have to cut a lot of this out as it's more than is necessary.  And once that happens, it becomes one of the other lists.  Just trying to see how over the top it had become.

I think I'm going to use the Averland list, instead.  What's up with the brethren entry, though?  That seems like a misprint.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 11:31:16 AM by wissenlander »
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

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Offline Swan-of-War

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2009, 12:22:29 PM »
I played Carnival of Chaos once and found them pretty powerful, especially as a beginning warband. I threw out Nurgle's Rot from the get-go just so I wouldn't discourage other players from playing me.  The Nurglings needed to be toned-down a bit too - I remember throwing a bunch of them forward and tearing through other warbands.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2009, 01:41:45 PM »
I think I'm going to use the Averland list, instead.

So I've put you off entirely? Sorry!


Quote
What's up with the brethren entry, though?  That seems like a misprint.

Are you looking at the list on Mordheimer? If so, that explains it. There are quite a few copy-and-paste errors on there. There aren't supposed to be any brethren.


Quote from: Swan-of-War
I played Carnival of Chaos once and found them pretty powerful, especially as a beginning warband. I threw out Nurgle's Rot from the get-go just so I wouldn't discourage other players from playing me.  The Nurglings needed to be toned-down a bit too - I remember throwing a bunch of them forward and tearing through other warbands.

I've not played them, but they seem like a case of great theme, insufficient playtesting. And Nurgle's rot is just obnoxious.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2009, 01:46:44 PM »
So I've put you off entirely? Sorry!

Not at all!  I just want to edit what I have before I submit it for use in a campaign.  I think it would be unfair as some of the rules I've put in are just too strong on second glance.  Once I work out some of the kinks I'll repost for thoughts.

And, yes, I got the list off of Mordheimer.  I assumed it was an error, it just didn't fit.
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

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finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline wissenlander

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2009, 02:47:05 PM »
Ok, I think this is a bit better, but still would like some feedback.

Some of the special rules combine the superstitious and dwarf connections without making it overtly strong (I hope).

When I initially did this, I think I tried to have too many options available.  I like the feel of this better, and think it's going in a better direction.

Wissenland Warband

Wissenlanders are a proud and stubborn people.  Often left to fend for themselves in the mountain passes, forests and hills of their home province, they have become a somber bunch.  Knowing that they often cannot rely upon help from neighboring provinces for aid, they have resigned themselves to doing things their own way.  Lacking the wealth of neighboring Reikland, Averland and Nuln they use home made weapons, often utilizing tools meant for farming, not warfare.  Over the centuries, they have refined hit and run and ambush tactics to confuse, redirect and destroy enemies that dare defile their beloved land.

SPECIAL RULES
Price of Steel:   Swords and heavy armor are seen as luxuries and are more expensive than simpler weapons (spears, halberds, bows, etc.). 

To reflect this, all ‘luxury’ items in the armory have a raised price while the simpler weapons are at a reduced price.  Consult Equipment Lists.  This rule only applies for the initial construction of the warband, once in Mordheim, normal prices are applicable.

Steady Aim:  Raised from birth with bow in hand, Wissenlanders are expert marksmen.  To reflect this, the normal -1 modifier for shooting at long range is negated (applies to bows/longbows only). 

Suspiciously Superstitious: Wary of strangers and superstitious to the extreme, Wissenlanders are very particular on who they will associate with. 

A Wissenland warband will only hire Dwarf or Sigmarite Hired Swords/Dramatis Personae.

Scout: One group with a Ranger in it may be deployed outside of its normal deployment zone, outside of visual site of the enemy.

Choice of Warriors
A Wissenland warband is comprised of soldiers of the provincial army.  Whether dispatched by a minor noble or on a quest for their own fortunes, they scour the streets of Mordheim relying on their skills that have gotten them this far in life.  A warband must include a minimum of three models.  You have 500 gold crowns available to spend.  The maximum number of warriors in the warband may never exceed 15.

Heroes
Captain: Your warband must have one Captain.  No more, no less!
Ranger: Your warband may include up to two Rangers.
Lads: Your warband may include up to two Lads.


Henchmen
Regulars: Your warband may include any number of Regulars.
Huntsmen: Your warband may include no more than six Huntsmen.


STARTING EXPERIENCE
The Captain starts with 20 experience.
The Ranger starts with 6 experience.
The Lad start with 0 experience.

Wissenlander skills table
Captain: Combat, shooting, academic, strength, speed
Ranger: Shooting, speed
Lad: Combat, shooting, speed

________________________________________HEROES________________________________

1 Captain
60 gold crowns to hire
A veteran of many campaigns, a captain from Wissenland is head strong and wise. His cunning has undoubtedly gained the trust of his men, for small bands are frequently asked to act as a diverting force to stop a larger enemy presence.  Often times these can end horribly, but those that manage to learn their craft quickly become revered and honored as astute tacticians.  Many a tale is sung in the taverns of the land telling of bold captains and the men that dared follow.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4      4       4    3    3    1    4   1     8

Weapons/Armor:   A Captain may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Regulars Equipment list.

0 – 2 Rangers
35 gold crowns to hire
These men have been raised from birth to know the land and shoot a bow.  They are usually found at the head of a band of huntsmen, patrolling the woods and mountains of the province.  With years of knowledge at their disposal, they are adept at ambush tactics, a method of keeping the enemy back as they are not renowned for their close combat abilities.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4      2       4    3    3    1   3    1     7

Weapons/Armor:   A Ranger may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Huntsmen Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES
Longbows:   The need to keep the enemy away for as long as possible is a vital aspect of a Ranger’s well being.  To reflect this any Ranger may purchase a longbow at half cost.

Set Traps:   Rangers are expert trappers and hunters and these skills can be put to great use in the ruins of Mordheim. A Ranger may set a trap if he spends a turn doing nothing else (he may not set traps if he’s just recovered from being Knocked Down). Place a marker in base contact with the Ranger. When a model, friend or foe, moves within 2" of the marker he risks setting off the trap – roll a D6. On a score of 3+ he has triggered the trap and suffers a S4 hit (note that the Ranger won’t trigger his own traps). If the trap did not wound the model or it didn’t trigger, the ‘victim’ may finish his move otherwise he is placed knocked Down or Stunned 2" from the marker. Regardless whether the trap was triggered or not, the marker is removed.

Lad
15 gold crowns to hire
These are impetuous young men who have taken dour tales told and spun them into romantic accounts.  Their naivety makes them eager for adventure but they are soon brought to reality within a few days of their first journey.  Still, the harsh life is enough to keep them around as it beats farm life.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4     2        2    3    3    1   3    1     6

Weapons/Armor:  A Lad may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Regular Equipment list.

 
________________________________________HENCHMEN______________________________

Regulars 0+
25 gold crowns to hire
These men have left the farms and villages to join the standing army.  A life of adventure and danger awaits them, but the reward outweighs the risk.  The promise of steady pay, warm meals and a tent to sleep in is enough to attract many lads to the rigors of army life.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4     3        3    3    3    1    3   1     7

Weapons/Armor:   A Regular may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Regular Equipment list.


0 – 6 Huntsmen

30 gold crowns to hire
Huntsmen form a vital role in the army of Wissenland.  They are often the tip of the spear in the defense as they are the advanced warning for invading forces of orcs, goblins and the occasional Bretonnian.  They are not constituted into the regular army and are not bound by the same discipline as the battle line troops.  This is not usually a problem however, as they are known for their discipline, a much needed asset when coming danger close to enemy formations.

Profile M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld
             4      2       3    3    3    1   3    1     7

Weapons/Armor: A Huntsman may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Huntsmen Equipment list.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 03:54:37 PM by wissenlander »
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

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Offline wissenlander

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2009, 02:54:48 PM »
And an updated Equipment List as well:

Mercenary Equipment Lists
The following lists are used by Wissenland warbands to pick their weapons during the initial construction of the warband.  Once the warband enters Mordheim, consult the normal equipment list:

 
Regulars EQUIPMENT LIST
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Mace/Hammer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 gc
Morning star . . . . . . . . . . . 17 gc
Double-handed weapon . . 17 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 gc
Halberd . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 gc

Missile Weapons
Crossbow . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 gc
Pistol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc (40 for a brace)
Dueling pistol . . . . . . . . . 30 gc (60 for a brace)
Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 gc

Armor
Light armor . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Heavy armor . . . . . . . . . . 60 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Buckler . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10 gc

Huntsmen EQUIPMENT LIST
This list is for Rangers/Huntsmen only
Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Mace/Hammer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 gc

Missile Weapons
Crossbow . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 gc
Pistol . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20 gc (40 for a brace)
Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 gc
Long bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc

Armor
Light armor . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

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finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2009, 11:40:57 AM »
I think you might have gone too far the other way now...

Quote
Price of Steel:    Swords and heavy armor are seen as luxuries and are more expensive than simpler weapons (spears, halberds, bows, etc.). 

I still think this is a bit pointless (it's not really a significant advantage or disadvatage), and not that fluffy (you say these guys are from the Wissenland army! They can get hold of swords if they need them. Guns too, since Nuln is so close). Also, I don't see halberds as 'simple' weapons.


Quote
Steady Aim:  Raised from birth with bow in hand, Wissenlanders are expert marksmen.  To reflect this, the normal -1 modifier for shooting at long range is negated (applies to bows/longbows only)

This sounds fine.


Quote
Suspiciously Superstitious: Wary of strangers and superstitious to the extreme, Wissenlanders are very particular on who they will associate with.

A Wissenland warband will only hire Dwarf or Sigmarite Hired Swords/Dramatis Personae.

This is quite harsh. I can think of two dwarf hired swords, and no explicitly Sigmarite ones (other than the underwritten priest from one of the town crier magazines).


Quote
Scout: One group with a Ranger in it may be deployed outside of its normal deployment zone, outside of visual site of the enemy.

I don't know what this means in Mordheim terms: what's a group? How is the ranger with them? It sounds more like a Warhammer rule.

Maybe it should be more like the existing skill 'hunch:'

Hunch: This skill may only be taken by the warband leader. The warrior has an uncanny knack of placing his men in the right place at the right time, as if he senses danger through instinct alone. In any scenario the warband leader may position up to 3 of his men capable of earning experience in any ruined building on the board that is at least 12 inch away from an enemy model and not in the enemy deployment zone.



The heroes look OK, though it's odd that the 'lads' get academic skills, given their description.

Only two types of henchmen? No swordsmen/elites?

Huntsmen: why do they cost 30, and have WS 2? They seem very weak compared to the normal mercenary marksmen. They even have a more limited choice of weapons (no blunderbuss!).
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2009, 01:22:26 PM »
I still think this is a bit pointless (it's not really a significant advantage or disadvatage), and not that fluffy (you say these guys are from the Wissenland army! They can get hold of swords if they need them. Guns too, since Nuln is so close). Also, I don't see halberds as 'simple' weapons.

I imagined them as guys who wer quite poor, even though they are in an army they don't have the funds of wealthier provinces.  I guess my initial discription isn't working.  I can see the halberd not in the right category though.


This is quite harsh. I can think of two dwarf hired swords, and no explicitly Sigmarite ones (other than the underwritten priest from one of the town crier magazines).

I could expand who they could hire, but I wanted to keep in the superstitious part.  Ostlanders have a similiar limitation in that they can only hire ogres.


I don't know what this means in Mordheim terms: what's a group? How is the ranger with them? It sounds more like a Warhammer rule.

A henchmen group that has a ranger attached.  But, the hunch rule sounds about like what I wanted.  I wanted this to be an ambushy type warband.  What skill list is hunch under?

The heroes look OK, though it's odd that the 'lads' get academic skills, given their description.

Impressionable youth?  I actually meant for it to be combat instead of academic.

Only two types of henchmen? No swordsmen/elites?

I actually meant to add in another henchmen option.

Huntsmen: why do they cost 30, and have WS 2? They seem very weak compared to the normal mercenary marksmen. They even have a more limited choice of weapons (no blunderbuss!).

My application of this has been rather crude.  I was thinking that the initial kit wouldn't allow a marksman to have gunpowder weapons.  Along the same line of thought I had earlier about them not having access to it when they first entered the city.  The WS2 is to match the rangers which have the same.

Well, with all the mistakes I've made I need to have a good sit down and tighten this up a bit.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 04:37:16 PM by wissenlander »
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

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finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2009, 10:55:50 AM »
Quote
I imagined them as guys who wer quite poor, even though they are in an army they don't have the funds of wealthier provinces.  I guess my initial discription isn't working.  I can see the halberd not in the right category though.

It just seems like a lot of effort to go to for very little effect. It's mainly a tax on items that starting warbands won't need anyway.

And how hard would it really be for the Elector to buy swords for a dozen guys?


Quote
I could expand who they could hire, but I wanted to keep in the superstitious part.  Ostlanders have a similiar limitation in that they can only hire ogres.

Ostlanders get a priest of Taal, and a lot of special rules to compensate though. One of the main advantages of the other mercenary warbands is the variety of hired swords available.


Quote
A henchmen group that has a ranger attached.  But, the hunch rule sounds about like what I wanted.  I wanted this to be an ambushy type warband.  What skill list is hunch under?

It's an academic skill (not in the main rulebook though - it was from town crier. It's on the Mordheimer list).

Henchmen groups don't mean much in the game, and there's no real precedent for a character joining them. It's not like a warhammer unit.

If you re-word the special ability so that it is more like 'hunch,' it would make more sense.


Quote
I was thinking that the initial kit wouldn't allow a marksman to have gunpowder weapons.  Along the same line of thought I had earlier about them not having access to it when they first entered the city.

But it means they can never use those weapons (unless they become heroes and take the weapons expert skill).
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Offline Von Kurst

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2009, 12:18:04 PM »
Concept wise you might stress that the warband is not a formal unit of the army, rather a 'free company' recruited and equipped (or not) by its leader. 

There is also precedent for a mercenary warband that does not use blackpowder weapons--the outlaws of Stirwood forest. 
You could also check the Hochland Bandits and the Horned Hunters from the Nemesis Crown.

One issue with making swords etc more expensive is that the current 'best build' folks don't recommend using them anyway so your proud group of 'poor' soldiers will be armed the same as Marienburgers. (There will just be more Marienburgers.)

A more novel approach would be to REQUIRE warband members to be armed with swords, etc.  That would be different.

The Hired Sword issue.  Most restrictions on Hired Sword use effectively mean that the warband in question has no hired swords available to it.  For example do you intend that only official hired swords may be used?  In which case your warband could hire a Troll Slayer.  If you intend that unofficial ones may be used providing a list in addition to a general rule is much better.

Depending on your interpretation of Sigmarite, I know of the Warrior Priest of Sigmar (poorly written and oddly priced), the Witch Hunter, the Dwarf Treasure Hunter, the Dwarf Pathfinder, Slayer Pirate and the Runesmith Journeyman.   

2 humans and a bunch of dwarfs.  Was this your intention?  Why do poor men restrict themselves to the most expensive hirelings?

A simpler interpretation of your rule would be no witches, warlocks or outlaws.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2009, 12:38:04 AM »
Thanks for your help, it's a great asset.  I think you are right rufus, the more I'm looking at the list the more it seems I'm just handicapping for the sake of a special rule.

Concept wise you might stress that the warband is not a formal unit of the army, rather a 'free company' recruited and equipped (or not) by its leader. 
 

That's a good idea.

A simpler interpretation of your rule would be no witches, warlocks or outlaws.

My current wording is similiar to this.
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2009, 06:29:40 PM »
Here's what I would do:

First of all, let's use the basic Mercenary list as a template and work from there.

Captain (you can call him something else, if you like)- Same as mercenary captain

Ranger- Same stats as champion except, his BS is 4 and his WS is 3.  He uses the marksman equipment list, and has combat shooting, and speed skills.

Special Rules: Scout- Identical to the skaven skill "Infiltration".

Lads: Same as youngbloods.  Combat, Shooting, Speed skills.

Henchmen:

Warriors- same as mercenary warriors

Huntsmen- Same as mercenary marksmen, but BS 4 is standard

Hunting Hounds- same as witch hunter wardogs, except for:

Special rules:  "You can run, but you can't hide"- hounds may detect hidden enemies at twice initiative value.

Hired Swords: no witches, warlocks or outlaws.

This sticks pretty close to the mercenary template but is different enough to be interesting, and shouldn't be overpowered by any means.  I'd think this would work well for stirland as well.   :icon_biggrin:

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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2009, 10:47:11 AM »
Why would they have better dogs than the witch hunters? How do dogs fit the theme?
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2009, 02:07:59 PM »
I'm not sure the dogs do fit in with what I'm going for.

I've a question regarding the BS of my warband.  I've got the rule Steady Aim:  Raised from birth with bow in hand, Wissenlanders are expert marksmen.  To reflect this, the normal -1 modifier for shooting at long range is negated (applies to bows/longbows only).

But if I give the Rangers and Marksmen BS 4 I think that may be a little too powerful a combination, unless I raise their hiring cost.  Although, the Steady Aim is restricted to bows/longbows only.

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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2009, 02:20:51 PM »
I think you should stick with 'steady aim,' and not re-use the Reikland BS4. The warband will be more distinctive that way.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #73 on: November 03, 2009, 03:22:18 PM »
Awesome, I believe I shall. :happy:

I think I'm almost done with it, though the name 'Regular' is a sticking point to me.  Any ideas on a better name?  I'm turning them into my elite henchman selection.

The 'irregulars' are making a reappearance, though with a different name and tweaked stats of a basic warrior.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 03:26:25 PM by wissenlander »
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?
« Reply #74 on: November 03, 2009, 04:10:44 PM »
Ok, here it is...my semi-finalized list.  Could use more tweaking I'm sure, but I think this is in line with the current Mercenary bands and is at about the same power level without going cheesy. 

My biggest concerns are the hiring prices.  Adding in some special rules makes it a little harder to judge the price.

Wissenland Warband
Wissenlanders are a proud and stubborn people.  Often left to fend for themselves in the mountain passes, forests and hills of their home province, they have become a somber bunch.  Knowing that they often cannot rely upon help from neighboring provinces, they have resigned themselves to doing things their own way.  Over the centuries, they have refined hit and run and ambush tactics to confuse, redirect and destroy enemies that dare defile their beloved land.

SPECIAL RULES
Suspiciously Superstitious: Wary of strangers and superstitious to the extreme, Wissenlanders are very particular on who they will associate with.  A Wissenland warband may not hire witches, warlocks or outlaws of any kind.

Steady Aim:   Raised from birth with bow in hand, Wissenlanders are expert marksmen.  To reflect this, the normal -1 modifier for shooting at long range is negated (applies to bows/longbows only).

Choice of Warriors
A Wissenland warband is comprised of soldiers of fortune from the province.  Some may be regular soldiers, some may be militia, but all are present at the request of the Captain who formed the warband. Whether dispatched by a minor noble or on a quest for their own fortunes, they scour the streets of Mordheim relying on their skills that have gotten them this far in life.  A warband must include a minimum of three models.  You have 500 gold crowns available to spend.  The maximum number of warriors in the warband may never exceed 15.

Heroes
Captain: Your warband must have one Captain.  No more, no less!
Ranger: Your warband may include up to two Rangers.
Lads: Your warband may include up to two Lads.

Henchmen
Duelist: Your warband may include up to 5 Duelists.
Partisan: Your warband may include any number of Partisans.
Huntsman: Your warband may include no more than six Huntsmen.

STARTING EXPERIENCE
The Captain starts with 20 experience.
The Ranger starts with 6 experience.
The Lad starts with 0 experience.

Skill Table:
Captain: Combat, shooting, academic, strength, speed
Ranger: Shooting, speed
Lad: Combat, shooting, speed

1 Captain
65 gold crowns to hire
A veteran of many campaigns, a captain from Wissenland is head strong and wise. His cunning has undoubtedly gained the trust of his men, for small bands are frequently asked to act as a diverting force to stop a larger enemy presence.  Often times these can end horribly, but those that manage to learn their craft quickly become revered and honored as astute tacticians.  Many a tale is sung in the taverns of the land telling of bold captains and the men that dared follow.

Profile M4   WS4   BS 4  S3   T3   W1   I4   A1   Ld8
         
Weapons/Armor:  A Captain may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Duelist Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES:  A Captain from Wissenland has spent many years using ambush tactics. To reflect this, the Captain automatically has the special skill Hunch.

Hunch: This skill may only be taken by the warband leader. The warrior has an uncanny knack of placing his men in the right place at the right time, as if he senses danger through instinct alone. In any scenario the warband leader may position up to 3 of his men capable of earning experience in any ruined building on the board that is at least 12 inches away from an enemy model and not in the enemy deployment zone.

Leader: Any warrior within 6" of the Captain may use his Leadership characteristic when taking any Leadership tests.

0 – 2 Rangers
35 gold crowns to hire
These men have been raised from birth to know the land and shoot a bow.  They are usually found at the head of a band of huntsmen, patrolling the woods and mountains of the province.  With years of knowledge at their disposal, they are adept at ambush tactics.

Profile M4   WS3   BS4   S3   T3   W1   I3   A1   Ld7
     
Weapons/Armor:  A Ranger may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Huntsmen Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES
Longbows:   The need to keep the enemy away for as long as possible is a vital aspect of a Ranger’s well being.  To reflect this any Ranger may purchase a longbow at half cost.

Set Traps:  Rangers are expert trappers and hunters and these skills can be put to great use in the ruins of Mordheim. A Ranger may set a trap if he spends a turn doing nothing else (he may not set traps if he’s just recovered from being Knocked Down). Place a marker in base contact with the Ranger. When a model, friend or foe, moves within 2" of the marker he risks setting off the trap – roll a D6. On a score of 3+ he has triggered the trap and suffers a S4 hit (note that the Ranger won’t trigger his own traps). If the trap did not wound the model or it didn’t trigger, the ‘victim’ may finish his move otherwise he is placed knocked Down or Stunned 2" from the marker. Regardless whether the trap was triggered or not, the marker is removed.

0 - 2 Lads
15 gold crowns to hire
These are impetuous young men who have taken dour tales told and spun them into romantic accounts.  Their naivety makes them eager for adventure but they are soon brought to reality within a few days of their first journey.  Still, the harsh life is enough to keep them around as it beats farm life.

Profile M4   WS2   BS2   S3   T3   W1   I3   A1   Ld6
           
Weapons/Armor:   A Lad may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Duelist Equipment list.


________________________________________HENCHMAN___________________________________

0 – 5 Duelists
30 gold crowns to hire
These men have left the farms and villages to join the standing army.  The promise of steady pay, warm meals and a tent to sleep in is enough to attract many lads to the rigors of army life, but they are soon transformed into hardened soldiers. 

Profile M4   WS4   BS3   S3   T3   W1   I3   A1   Ld7
           
Weapons/Armor:   A Duelist may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Duelist Equipment list.

0 + Partisans
25 gold crowns to hire
Conscripts, volunteers, brigands, retired army veterans.  They serve in a time of need and most have little to no training to rely upon.  Their weapons are rudimentary, yet effective.  When joining a warband it shows that times are desperate, be it to answer the call in repelling an invasion force or the search for coins to quell the hunger pangs of small children at home.

Profile M4   WS3   BS3   S3   T3   W1   I3   A1   Ld7
       
Weapons/Armor:   A Partisan may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Duelist Equipment list.

0 – 6 Huntsmen
30 gold crowns to hire
Huntsmen form a vital role in the army of Wissenland.  They are often the tip of the spear in the defense as they are the advanced warning for invading forces of orcs, goblins and the occasional Bretonnian.  They are not constituted into the regular army and are not bound by the same discipline as the battle line troops.  This is not usually a problem however, as they are known for their discipline, a much needed asset when coming danger close to enemy formations.

Profile M4   WS3   BS3   S3   T3   W1   I3   A1   Ld7
             
Weapons/Armor: A Huntsman may be equipped with weapons and armor chosen from the Huntsmen Equipment list.

Equipment List:  As normal, I scrapped all of the changes.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 04:49:07 PM by wissenlander »
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

not together.

finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...