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Author Topic: 1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics  (Read 3317 times)

Offline kenshin

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1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics
« on: November 25, 2013, 05:38:07 PM »
Hi all, 

been playing alot of my goblins lately and the empire has been collecting dust.  Goal now is to start building it again.

Anyways, i've played two games with my empire vs his skaven and the results have been quite subpar.  Believe it or not, my pure gobbo army is able to destroy his skaven but what i have atm with my empire is lacking.

Ok so this is what he typically uses

- skaven warlord in a horde of 40ish clan rats. also has a lvl 2 warlock in it
- 2nd horde unit of 40 clan rats with a lvl 2 warlock in it with doomrocket
- 6 rat ogres with 3 packmasters
- 2x poison wind mortars attached to the horde units
- 2x warp lightning cannons

with my goblin army, i typically have tons of units and lots of bodies in each unit.  I am able to absorb the amount of firepower / spells and flank charge with squig hoppers (my fav units btw lol).  usually it ends with a pretty solid victory for me. 

with empire however.. i have much more limited amount of models and had scraped together a 1.5k list

-AL and lvl 4 wizard (life) in a 35 man strong halbredier unit
-10 standard knights
-5 pistoliers
- great cannn
- hellblaster with engineer

what i've noticed is that i have way less bodies than him and cant outshoot him.. so i get blown to bits.

i'm working on a steam tank now and have seen got quite a few more models... so hopefully i can do better

this is what i am thinking

AL with a 30ish man strong halbredier unit ... lvl 4 life wizard here as well as bsb captain
10 archers as detachment (move with parent company and hopefully shoot down his weapon teams)
10 knights
2 great cannons to shoot his warp cannons or make him waste shots on them
steam tank

i have about 100 points spare to play with.

also.. how would demigryphs fair?  he has weapons that kill chaff.. he has lots of weapons with no armour save.. his cannons are d6 wounds...

any suggestions or thoughts?  will start a painting blog soon since I finally nailed down my colour scheme

thanks!

Offline spafe

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Re: 1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2013, 09:00:42 AM »
Sorry if this isnt too helpful, but could you split the knights, make one a reiksguard, then tarpit a horde with a unit of stubborn 1+ sv knights. only trick will be getting them into combat without attracting the anger of the warp lightning cannons

Offline George

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Re: 1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2013, 01:30:07 AM »
I can highly recommend a pegasus captain (with charmed shield). He will hunt the WLC or die while distracting them so your cannon can take them out.
The pistoliers should also try and threaten the WLC, they should be able to beat it in combat easily enough.
The helblaster should focus on the rat ogres....they will have stupidity once the 3 packmasters die.
I'm not sure life is the right lore for you here, though not sure the best option...maybe death to snipe out the warlord as without him the skaven Ld is terrible.
The clanrats shouldn't be an issue as they should get ground out by the knights + halberds. A couple or 5 man archer detatchments would also help to divert your opponents units so you can focus on one unit at a time.
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Offline Pyromaniac Pete

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Re: 1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 02:16:17 PM »
If i fight against Skaven i mostly use helebardiers (never less than 50) and i charge into closecombat as fast as i can.
Cause Skaven have to much fire power for a fire battle. In worst case the Screaming Bell kills our war machines.

Offline hadric kolfinger

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Re: 1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2014, 03:49:28 PM »
since skaven have horrible Ld and come in large numbers, what about using fear or terror against the main infantry blocks? BTW what is the skitter away special rule that the skaven have?

Offline zifnab0

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Re: 1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2014, 05:00:46 PM »
since skaven have horrible Ld and come in large numbers, what about using fear or terror against the main infantry blocks?

Due to Strength in Numbers they're usually Ld. 9.  Even slaves.

BTW what is the skitter away special rule that the skaven have?

+1 to flee, I believe.

Offline Vietnow

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Re: 1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2014, 05:51:13 AM »
Warp lightning cannons destroy S Tanks.  They never allow armor and always do D6 wounds.  Sure, they have variable strength, but with 2 of them.... Tanks will be missing wounds quickly.  While pistoliers aren't the best fast cav in the game, I think many Empire players underate them.   They are over priced by 1-3 points, but its the only real fast cav unit in the book.  As a DE player I typically have 3-5 fast cav units in a 2500pt game.  They're extremely useful, and expendable.     So either shoot warmachines with your own cannons, or take some fast cav.

I know skaven can shoot into combat, but is that only against slaves?   If its only slaves then slam those tanks into combat ASAP, and you'll have more freedom to move, as they'll be pitted quite well.

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: 1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2014, 07:04:48 AM »
Warp Lightning Cannon destroy Knights, Infantry and conventional warmachines just as well, so whether they destroy tanks is insubstantial. With 10 wounds, it's rather unlikely he'll kill it right away while almost every other unit will be crippled.

You do have three cannon (including the Stank) though, so you should be able to win a shoot-out if he doesn't have a Stormbanner. If he does, you need to outplay him. If you can disrupt his blocks, he loses SiN and needs to rely on Inspiring Presence. Since he doesn't have a BSB, that can work. Still, I would recommend trying to kill his General asap if you can.

He's got three combat units, and so do you. If you can hold one of his up for even a few rounds and gang up on a second, you would be able to defeat that block quickly and get the upper hand, even if one of your units gets a beating in the process. The Stank is predetermined to hold stuff up (yes, he can only shoot into combat with Slaves).

40 Clanrats will fight 30 Halberdiers if both are in horde to a standstill but he likely will lose some rounds, so without a General and with fewer ranks you could actually break him.

A Captasus is really a great idea. Either he shoots your stuff and you get the points for his WLC or he shoots at the Captasus and you might still get those points. A well-equipped Captain can also later turn around and hit a block in the rear.
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Offline Vietnow

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Re: 1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2014, 10:32:44 PM »
Warp lightning cannons can kill everything, true.  However, Skaven have other weapons to attack knights and infantry.  A single rank of knights is a bad target for lightning cannons, as only one is hit unless you land the template on them.  Unless you have ranked up knights, who eat a warp lightning template, the best target for them on his list is a Steam Tank.  I have little experience vs skaven however, so If this generally isn't in their line of thinking I wouldn't know.

No they likely won't kill it in one round of shooting, but they're likely to do D6 wounds, greatly reducing its effectiveness.  It may be best to screen the tank so he can't optimally place a shot.

Ty for clarification on shooting into slaves.  Once you're in combat, everything is safe.  So the issue is balancing effectivescreening for your Tank(s), and getting them into combat quickly.

Captain on peggy is fantastic, esp with the charmed shield.  Without jezzails or a BS shooting weapon on any character, the charmed shield can save him from the cannons.  Even if he kills the captain, he's not killing the steam tank.

Life magic is the 2nd best lore for empire behind light.  IMHO.  With a halberdier focused army vs skaven it may be #1.  Dwellers will cut one of his units in half before combat, and flesh to stone will prevent the wind mortars (and doom rocket) from punching big holes in your forces.

Demi's are nice b/c he likely only hits one with a cannon.  2/3 chance to lose less than 60 points, isn't bad.  They will also tear up the ratogres.  On average 21 rat ogre attacks do 2.28 wounds to demi's.  A unit of 3 Demi's does 5.9 wounds(if they don't lose a model, knights are I3, ogres I4.  A unit of 4 demi's with a champion kills 2 rat ogres, and remove steadfast.  You can break this unit on the charge.  Since his unit costs over 300 points, this is a fantastic match up, as it prevents the ratogres from ripping your infantry apart.  It also allows your Tank to have a safe, unbreakable, combat vs his infantry.

Offline Analog Control

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Re: 1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2014, 06:13:36 AM »
I've had a bit of experience fighting Skaven.  I can tell you that Lore of Light is your best friend here.  Throw down a bubble version of Pha's Protection and you'll ruin your opponents next shooting phase.  It really makes them regret taking the Storm Banner if it fails to go away when they being their turn.

Taking a Captasus and/or some Pistoliers will really help end the threat of those WLCs on turn 2 or 3.  If you feel sneaky you can try to get Birona's Timewarp on the Captasus during your turn 1 magic phase.  This will practically guarantee you a successful turn 2 charge into his warmachines and an overrun behind his lines.

If you invest in halberdiers, never take less than 50 versus Skaven.  They need to be large enough to weather through Plague and Scorch in order to avoid getting eliminated by the Dreaded 13th.  Since your friend isn't fielding a Gray Seer this isn't a concern.  However, if you take enough Halberdiers to make your core points quota, then you can drop the Knights in favor of some Demigryphs.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 06:16:39 AM by Analog Control »

Offline emcdunna

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Re: 1.5k empire vs skaven. lets talk tactics
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2014, 10:36:35 PM »
Yeah you need the halberds larger. 30 is a complete joke.

skaven are a tough opponent. At 1500 pts empire is really really hard to play. Its hard to get units working together in concert at such low points, and we only win if we can get an amazing combined arms force to work as a single body.

shoot his cannons with your cannon. Maybe he wont expect it and you can at least kill one of them.

Demigryphs are amazing but you should seriously consider talking to your opponent about raising the pts to 2000 (both of you would probably need to go out and buy more models though).

Empire state troops look flashy and elite but they die as fast as goblins.