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Author Topic: Cannon Hooks!?  (Read 1169 times)

Offline Jmash

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Cannon Hooks!?
« on: June 11, 2021, 03:37:35 PM »
Weird one but this has been nagging me for a bit since I was working on my artillery pieces recently.

What I want to know is - what the hell do people do with those little 'hook' accessories that come in the plastic Empire Cannon/Mortar kit!?

I'm not talking about the rings with the lion carvings, I'm happy that they're like tethers to keep a cannon in place but the hooks!? THE HOOKS!?

I've searched the tinterweb and there seems to be very few people who use them at all! The 'eavy metal example from GW website doesn't have them on there, I've even tried to look up real world cannons to see if I can glean anything from them but not much luck.

So... what are they for? Are they supposed to go on the back for transport with a yoke/chassis system like the DoW galloper guns? Do they go on the sides to hold some of the rods and sponges etc? It's been bugging me for ages!

I know it's not the most important thing but I hate it when bits go unused because they're clearly intended for some sort of purpose.

Somebody please tell me what to do with these things!? ::heretic::

Offline Jmash

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2021, 03:40:53 PM »
Culprits found in the bottom right of the left-hand sprue;



These things (pic link is eBay so might disappear...)


Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2021, 04:02:58 PM »
Hooks were used to fix metal chains to the carriage that would check the recoil, or simply keep the cannon in place. 



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« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 04:06:24 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Jmash

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2021, 04:14:37 PM »
But are these not more akin to the loops rather than hooks?

Every photo I've seen of actual cannons with chains, ropes, dampeners of any kind attached to the sides they all look more like fixed loops not an open hook...

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2021, 04:20:52 PM »
The chains have loops, the hooks are on the carriage. You need the hooks to attach the loops and easily remove them again, as required.
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Offline Jmash

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2021, 04:29:26 PM »
Now whilst that without a doubt makes absolutely perfect sense to me... GW didn't give me any chains to hook on the sides! :-P

Sooo... without going the whole hog and rigging up my own cannon tethers/recoil dampener things with some small chains, what the bloody hell do I use them for?

Maybe this is why everybody seems to leave them off!

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2021, 04:43:17 PM »
There are also drawings where the cannon also have hooks underneath the carriage. I guess that may be to attach utensils, or perhaps ropes, either for further fixation, or for extra pull power, if the cannon gets stuck. Apart from perfectionism, there is no real need to add them.
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Offline Jmash

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2021, 05:17:14 PM »
Then consider me a perfectionist! :biggriin:

I just feel I should put them on because otherwise they're just wasted. I'll probably just whack them on the sides of the carriage somewhere to serve no real function, just to... be.

Offline JAK

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2021, 06:32:22 PM »
The hooks will be to hold the ramrod and sponge when the cannon is not in action, or on the move. So if you want a mini-diorama or unit filler you add two hooks to each side of the gun carriage supporting the kit’s spare tools and either leave out the crew or have them in non-combat positions; i.e. eating and drinking as they wait to be needed.

Offline Naitsabes

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2021, 10:12:29 PM »
I did what JAK describes. (minus the eating and drinking crew). I like that putting the hooks (+ ramrod/sponge) on or not or on one side only makes each cannon a bit different.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2021, 10:18:02 PM »
Historically, that seems to have happened very late (around 1700). [The Empire is a reflection of the HRE around 1500, and much of the 6th edition models seem to have been inspired by the artwork in Osprey's The Landsknechts.] In the 1613 treatise Recueil du reiglement general de l’ordre et conduitte de l’artillerie, tant pour marcher en campagne que pour la placer et dresser batteryes aux sieges et aultres affaires, faict et recueilly  [Compendium of the general regulations of disposition and use of the artillery, both to march in the field and to put in place and form batteries at sieges and other affairs, made and collected] by Benedit de Vassalieu, rammer, ramrod, sponge and wad-screw are tied in a bundle to the top of the barrel.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 04:38:29 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline S.O.F

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2021, 10:59:04 PM »
"Recueil du reiglement general de l’ordre et conduitte de l’artillerie, tant pour marcher en campagne que pour la placer et dresser batteryes aux sieges et aultres affaires, faict et recueilly"

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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2021, 04:37:19 AM »
I do not think the blessed captain was trying to be witty- it is a weighty subject, after all. 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 10:33:33 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Cannon Hooks!?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2021, 07:33:14 AM »
Here is a drawing from Diego Ufano's Tratado de la Artillería y uso della platicado en las Guerras de Flandes [Treatise on Artillery and its use, as discussed in the Flemish Wars], also from 1613:


Since the two largest armies of the time (17th century Spain and France) used the same method, one can assume it to be commonplace.  That does not mean, the same method was used in the 16th century (I have not yet found a contemporary picture), but it does mean we can safely exclude the use of an even later method.

As it happens, the title of the French translation is somewhat less succinct than the original:
 
Artillerie, c'est à dire Vraye instruction de l'artillerie et de toutes ses appartenances . Avec une déclaration de tout ce qui est de l'office d'un général d'icelle, tant en un siège qu'en un lieu assiégé. Item des batteries, contrebatteries, ponts, mines et galleries et de toutes sortes des machines requises au train... Le tout recueilly de l'expérience es guerres du Pays-Bas et publié en langue espagnolle par Diego Ufano,... Mais maintenant traduit en langue francoise, et orné de figures par Jean Théodore de Bry,.... 1614.

[Artillery, that is to say a true instruction regarding artillery and all its applications. With a exposition of all that pertains to the office of an artillery general, both when besieging or being besieged. Item of batteries, counter-batteries, bridges, mines and galleries and all kinds of machines required for the train ... All gathered from the experience of the wars in the Low Countries, and published in Spanish by Diego Ufano, ... But now translated into French, and decorated with figures by Jean Théodore de Bry, .... 1614.]

« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 10:36:00 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)