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The General Archive => Empire Army Book 8th Edition => Lords Heroes and Special Characters => Topic started by: Grutch on May 13, 2009, 04:44:38 PM

Title: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Grutch on May 13, 2009, 04:44:38 PM
The 7.0 Engineer was a step in the right direction and a halfstep backwards. 

I love the engineer tools list and I can even live with his robohorse and it's electrical brass balls.  I have to admit I sort of like the model too! (/me ducks for cover).   That being said I think he needs some adjustments to be truly worthy in the field.  So for all intents and purposes I'll suggest keeping him as is with some exceptions.

Ballistic Skill 5.  - The Engineer has been creating and firing weapons since he was a wee lil lad. It's not hard to imagine that he served as a handgunner in an Imperial army somewhere and eventually was promoted to lead a unit.  It's also not hard to imagine his skill in calibrating and firing a war machine with dead on accuracy.  He should be one of the best shooters on the battlefield, and his enemies beware,  an engineer with a hochland long rifle will be taking shots on your noggin.  Had the GW design team reasoned this, the Engineer would be fielded much more on the table.

Reroll Ability-  If an Empire Engineer is on the table,  ALL warmachines get a reroll in case of a misfire.  His coaching and efficiency amongst the war machine crews prior to battle, and on the warpath have boosted their abilities on the field.  If an Engineer crews a War Machine,  his BS is utilized when necessary, and a second Reroll can be applied in case of a misfire.

-Grutch
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Obi on May 13, 2009, 05:28:45 PM
I like your take on the engie! I'd like to add one thing: the option to take heavy armour at +4 pts.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on May 13, 2009, 07:24:45 PM
and Magic items.

And I'd limit it to 1 reroll per battle per warmachine.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Feanor Fire Heart on May 13, 2009, 07:28:10 PM
bah I say no magic items.  I say he should get engineer only items to choose from, kinda like how wizards get to choose arcane items.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on May 13, 2009, 07:30:22 PM
That would work as well. As long as they get items that are similar to magic items in their effect, I don't care what you call them.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Toni on May 13, 2009, 07:32:37 PM
There should be option to upgrade mechanical steed to a necron monolith for 200pts.  :icon_lol: Or perhaps option for destroyer body?  :icon_rolleyes:
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Soulfire on May 13, 2009, 07:34:48 PM
Pah! In Empire 8.0 Steam Tanks will be made into special choices, and they will be an upgradeable mount for Engineers!
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Obi on May 13, 2009, 07:53:38 PM
 :-D

On a more serious note, I think some magic-items-look-alike-invetions would be a good addition. Just a few, such as a sort of cross-over between the HLR and the dragon bow.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on May 13, 2009, 07:55:24 PM
:-D

On a more serious note, I think some magic-items-look-alike-invetions would be a good addition. Just a few, such as a sort of cross-over between the HLR and the dragon bow.

In a repeater version ?
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Obi on May 13, 2009, 07:57:23 PM
well yeah, either that or a nuke :roll:
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on May 13, 2009, 07:58:25 PM
Hey, Valmir Von Raukov had one of those (a repeater dragon bow, not a nuke)
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Henerius on May 13, 2009, 07:59:50 PM
at 20 points, no hero slot, as unit upgrade... I might reconsider EVER fielding one in my armies...

Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Toni on May 13, 2009, 08:00:54 PM
Yes that sounds good.

Or how about suicide bomb dog upgrade to engineer? Like in WW2. Dogs that are trained to go near the enemy and then engineer will trigger the bombs that are attached to the dog. It could use rules of goblin fanatics.  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on May 13, 2009, 08:01:45 PM
OOOh


Steveb, where are those powder monkeys ?
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Obi on May 13, 2009, 08:02:19 PM
Yes, only they'll blow up our steam tanks :engel: Anyone get it? Anyone? (instert misaksi's favourite smiley)

You mean powder, I think? Him and his regiment of powder monkey flagellants?
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Toni on May 13, 2009, 08:04:01 PM
Yes, only they'll blow up our steam tanks :engel: Anyone get it? Anyone? (instert misaksi's favourite smiley)

I got it.  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Rodman49 on May 14, 2009, 08:31:58 AM
The 7.0 Engineer was a step in the right direction and a halfstep backwards. 

I love the engineer tools list and I can even live with his robohorse and it's electrical brass balls.  I have to admit I sort of like the model too! (/me ducks for cover).   That being said I think he needs some adjustments to be truly worthy in the field.  So for all intents and purposes I'll suggest keeping him as is with some exceptions.

Ballistic Skill 5.  - The Engineer has been creating and firing weapons since he was a wee lil lad. It's not hard to imagine that he served as a handgunner in an Imperial army somewhere and eventually was promoted to lead a unit.  It's also not hard to imagine his skill in calibrating and firing a war machine with dead on accuracy.  He should be one of the best shooters on the battlefield, and his enemies beware,  an engineer with a hochland long rifle will be taking shots on your noggin.  Had the GW design team reasoned this, the Engineer would be fielded much more on the table.

Reroll Ability-  If an Empire Engineer is on the table,  ALL warmachines get a reroll in case of a misfire.  His coaching and efficiency amongst the war machine crews prior to battle, and on the warpath have boosted their abilities on the field.  If an Engineer crews a War Machine,  his BS is utilized when necessary, and a second Reroll can be applied in case of a misfire.

-Grutch

Both pretty good ideas.  I would lower the cost of all his upgrades to 5 or 10 points and let him take as many of them as he wants in addition to the above.  The re-roll ability is the most controversial of the two but honestly its hard to justify wasting one of your hero slots unless it does that (a captasus, level 2 mage, or BSB; are always better choices than the current engie; allowing all your war engines to reroll misfires might make him competitive).
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Warlord on May 14, 2009, 04:23:09 PM
Great idea boss.

So simple, and yet ffective. Don't forget dropping the points cost though. 45 pts is fair IMO.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Toro_Blanco on May 15, 2009, 06:03:12 AM
Ballistic Skill 5.

This always seemed like a sorely missed typo, to me.  The Engineer is a skilled tinkerer who does nothing but build and play with guns, yet even a Captain has better marksmanship than him?  Absurdity, I say!  High time we fixed that and gave him the Ballistic Skill he deserves, if nothing else!

Oh, and get rid of the stupid horse ::throws something at Grutch::
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Derek Contyre on May 17, 2009, 01:34:16 AM
I can see your reasoning on the bs5 heck in my time playing empire hitting on a five with a hochland was absurdly terrible, i mean he's standing still with a sniper rifle, how hard could it be?  :eusa_wall:

but i can sorta see the gw reasoning, they've thought 'hmmm, an engineer that makes guns then tests said guns, not uses them every day, but tests them' actually that sounds a bit weak to me down with gw reasoning!
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Toni on May 17, 2009, 09:33:42 AM
Maybe it isn't just about skill. Maybe they are astigmatistic and thats why they have only bs 4. :icon_lol: The models even have usually eyeglasses or monocle so that must mean that they have bad vision.  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Merrick on May 17, 2009, 09:58:58 AM
I stand by my option of 'paying 15 points or so to take him out back and shoot him'..... :engel:

::throws something at Grutch::

Aargh!

*flies through the air and misses Grutch by a foot or so*
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Toro_Blanco on May 17, 2009, 03:17:00 PM
Maybe it isn't just about skill. Maybe they are astigmatistic and thats why they have only bs 4. :icon_lol: The models even have usually eyeglasses or monocle so that must mean that they have bad vision.  :icon_biggrin:

I object to your unfair blanket statement about monocle wearers, sir!  ::watches Eight Merrick miss Grutch by a foot or so:: Hmm... ::Adjusts monocle:: objection retracted.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Derek Contyre on May 18, 2009, 12:03:58 AM
Come on guys you can't say you wouldn't buy a monacle if you saw one for sale would you?  :unsure:

But in response to the engineer gw can't make him too powerful or it would take away from the dwarves, because the dwarves are supposed to be made to be the best shooting army out there apparently. Well thats their reasoning I guess. . .
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Shadowwolf on May 18, 2009, 02:11:18 PM
I would have liked him if he granted unlocking abilities to the army :-)

Like, field an engineer, and you can take engineering weapons for your other characters. Take two and you may upgrade all missile unit champs with special weapons (or CC troops with experimental weapons akin to the Von Zeppel stank). Take three and you can take double of a rare war machine for 1 slot, and so on.

Hopefully, gunlining would be balanced by the char slots taken up by the buggers :-)

/Shadowwolf
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Toro_Blanco on May 18, 2009, 03:40:26 PM
What about giving the engineer a zeppelin, or something like that?

Honestly, the robo-horse is a neat idea (engineering mount with unique powers), but let's take it in a different direction.

Maybe a zeppelin: flying, engineer always is considered on higher ground when determining LOS, maybe give it bombs of some sort it can drop, etc.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Siberius on May 19, 2009, 03:11:55 PM
I like Grutch's original idea with a sort of 'temple of khaine' style list of items and upgrades he could use. I've always thought the engineer should be the assassin of the Empire. Maybe not even taking up a hero slot but instead being placed in the army book like assassins. Maybe the points would have to up for him slightly (or not decrease at least) but I think that would make him viable without seeing a huge number of them fielded (as they'd be taking away from the points you can spend on other units).

The 'Engineer's Workshop' could contain a whole host of whacky things to take, pigeon bombs moving in there where they belong. It could vary between super upgrades to weapons (eg. Flaming Repeater Crossbows) to army helping items (eg. Magnetic Magic Foiler) to War Machine upgrades (eg. Cannon Balls linked by chain to do a 1" wide path of destruction). That sort of thing.

Not only would Engineers be more fun, but they'd offer that level of unpredictability that assassins and the like have and which lets face it, Engineers are inherently.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Obi on May 19, 2009, 03:19:08 PM
I love that cannonball idea! What about letting Helstorms fire two rockets at the same time?
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Siberius on May 19, 2009, 03:19:54 PM
That works too. See the craziness that could ensue??!!  :biggriin:
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: t12161991 on May 19, 2009, 03:30:31 PM
Not just two... 10!

But on a 2+ the whole thing goes up. Such is science!
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: MagicJuggler on May 19, 2009, 05:02:44 PM
Ok. I'm all for this. Let's petition GW, and NOW!!
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: smashthedean on May 19, 2009, 05:22:32 PM
I like the unit upgrade akin to DE Assassin idea, but I don't see them attaching to blocks of troops. I'd say they're only allowed as upgrades on blackpower units (Handgunners, Pistoliers, Outriders, Warmachines, and Steam Tanks) and I do definitely like the idea of an Engineer's Workshop list of items.

I'm definitely on board for the Engineer being a better shot, though I could see that maybe being an upgrade you would buy. Maybe just like "Master Sniper Scope" or something to give him +1 to hit with the Hochland Long Rifle. It would make sense as not all Engineers are fantastic super-shots (hence the base BS4) and it would make you consider if you want to have the guy as a super-sniper or want to spend his Workshop allotment on other upgrades.

Also regarding re-rolls to warmachines, I don't think having an army-wide reroll would work so much as just a re-roll for the warmachine he's attached to. Armywide is a little much I think and this gives a reason to attach him to a warmachine where he might be more vulnerable than in a unit.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Merrick on May 19, 2009, 06:54:30 PM
Ok. I'm all for this. Let's petition GW, and NOW!!

Because it'll make so much more of a difference then all the other petitions about Greatswords, price rises, Daemons, VCs and various other whines?
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Toro_Blanco on May 19, 2009, 07:23:27 PM
Ok. I'm all for this. Let's petition GW, and NOW!!

Because it'll make so much more of a difference then all the other petitions about Greatswords, price rises, Daemons, VCs and various other whines?

Possibly...at least this petition would carry the possibility of increased sales, rather than whining about prices.  Better engineers = more sales of engineers so they can be fielded.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Obi on May 19, 2009, 07:29:19 PM
They'll probably be in the next batallion box or something :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on May 20, 2009, 05:44:34 AM
I'm inclined to do the engineers as actually a trio of character levels the lowest being a journeyman technician, then master engineer, and dean of engineers.  These characters would not have access to magical items although the items they do have access to have properties that will seem magical (Experimental weaponry), also they will have access to army bumps from the university of engineering in Nuln (known as the schola bellator). 

Journeyman Engineering Technician cost: 25 points
Special Rules: Unit upgrade, counts as a unit champion in all respects. Save that he may refuse challenges without penalty, Jouneyman.
Stats:  M WS BS S  T  W  I  A  LD
           4  3    4  3   3  1  3  1   7
Equipment options: comes with light armour, Warhorse (8 pts)), may choose weapons or tactical upgrades from the experimental weaponry or Schola Bellator lists to a maximum value of 50 points.

Master Engineer

Special Rules: Master Engineer, Experimental Weaponry, Schola Bellator.
Stats: as is except for bs 5 and ld 8
Equipment Options: may take special weapon and tactical upgrades from the experimental weaponry, and Scola Bellator lists to a maximum value of 75 points.
Mount Options: may ride a SENTIENT barded warhorse for +10 points barding +4 or a mechanical one for +20
Cost: 50


Dean of Engineers
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4  3    5  3  3  2 4 2  9
Special Rules:Master engineer, Experimental weaponry, Schola Bellator, Master of engineers.
Equipment options: as engineer except may take Upgrades to a maximum value of 150 points as well as FP (+8 pts)
Mount Options: Steam Tank 300, Warhorse +15 which may be barded +6
Cost: 60pts

Applicable special rules:

If any engineering characters are selected certain army abilities are unlocked to both units and or characters.
<Journeyman: this character is incomplete in his training to be a master engineer and as such may benefit only fromone of the warmachine benefits at a time and must also accompany it to gain these, and cannot crew it on his own but may continue to act as an additional crewman so long as he is attached. 

<Master Engineer:  There must be at least 1 Master Engineer  in an Empire army for every steam tank. If not accompanying a war machine,  At the beginning of each Empire shooting phase, you may choose 1 Empire War Machine within 6".  For the duration of that phase, the machine gets your choice of 1 of the following: +1 to hit; may re-roll the artillery die; and may re-roll any roll on a misfire chart.  If accompanying a war machine, you must nominate that machine, but it gets all the aforementioned benefits. A master engineer may crew a war machine on his own if the crew he is accompanying is killed.

<Master OF Engineers:  If a Dean of engineers is general of an army he may take a body guard of outriders from the PistolKorps these troopers do not count towards the core/special/ rare quota in any way.  If the Dean is mounted in a S-tank they will act as a cavalry detachment to the S-tank.  Command range for this detachment is 7 inches refer to the Detachment rules in all other respects.

<Schola Bellator:  The engineers of the empire are not merely tinkerers and mechanics, they are scholars and historians of the art of War and as such have access to many unit upgrades, and army special abilities.  However in order to confer these special attributes to the soldiers of his most Imperial Majesty they must be present to confer the effect in a strategic and practical setting.
-Prepared Defenses: a variety of prepared defenses can be bought by engineers who use this ability.  The prepared defenses an engineer may buy for the unit’s in his army are such.
     - Gabions: these are large earthen filled wooden barricades to defend a warmachine from all but the most accurate of attacks.  The machine and crew counts as being behind hard cover.  This cover save is not lost even to S 10 attacks due to the inertia absorbing properties of the cover.  20 points per war machine
     - Ditch and Embankment: This is a quickly dug ditch with the earth thrown up onto the defended side to create an embankment which is then fortified with stakes, broken spears, etc. this will be a defended obstacle, providing a soft cover save to it's defenders who can hunker down behind the earthen embankment 20 points per unit.  This will count as a terrain feature for the remainder of the game.


<Engineering Tactica: These are the abilities the learned and scholarly engineers have emphasized in their extension students, generally considered unchivalrous and underhanded by those they are used against these abilities are no less capitalized to the fullest when available by even the most stiff necked Imperial knight.
     
       -Ambush : 1 point per model, designated to a specific engineering character
Troops noted for their ability to surprize thier enemies may be deployed in Ambush. At the beginning of the battle before units are placed, units in Ambush may be kept off of the battlefield.  The position of the unit is written down.  Once all units have been deployed this unit may either be placed in the controlling players zone or kept hidden in ambush.  Scouting rules then apply.
      -Imperial Stratagem : The imperial general actually listens to the learned council of his engineer liutenanant (unless the general is the dean , in which case he's in charge) and gives battle to the enemy on his own terns and on favourable ground.  For each master engineer or dean of engineers present at the battle the player may choose one of the following actions.  The player may choose to go either first or second regardless of die rolls and other applicable rules (this can force Brettonians NOT to play before battle), as well the player may move a terrain piece up to 6 inches in any direction, multiple engineers can repeat this action.  This happens in the empire players first turn regardless of whether the other player has moved or not. this ability is paid for by having engineering characters on the battlefield in place of thier more martial or magical comrades.     
 

     <Experimental Weaponry:  Master Engineers bring a cache of experimental weaponry to battle.  Some are too complex or dangerous for anyone but the engineer himself to use, but others become available to Elector Counts, Captains, or unit upgrades in the army.  If multiple master engineers are fielded, the cost of each weapon is reduced by 5pt for characters, the points cost for unit upgrades is never reduced. The following is the table of experimental weapons:

Pigeon Bombs 20 points: as is.   Master Engineer only.

Grenade launcher 30 points:  - st 6 armour piercing. Every wounding hit=d3 wounds. 24".  Master Engineer only.

repeater handgun 25 points: 3 shots, armour piercing st 4. 24"

repeater pistol 15 points: 3 shots. Armour piercing st4. 8" range. Pistol.

Nulnish shoulder cannon: 30 points, range 36' strength 6, 3 shots, always comes loaded with siver dipped bullets. equipped with the new dropping breech block so it is not restricted to move or fire.  (this is essentially the old dragon bow)

Dropping breech block Rifles: +4 points per model, one unit per 3000 point army is permitted to field test these new rare weapons.  They have a range of 36 S4 -3 AS and are not restricted to move or fire. You may upgrade handgunners  as per above rules or one unit of Huntsmen  with these if your army has a dean of engineers.

Grenadoes: 4 points per grenade used, S4 -2AS range 8 inches, uses 3 inch template and model’s BS to hit, if a hit is rolled roll an artillery die divided by two for template penetration into unit. If a misfire is rolled refer to the pigeon misfire table. A Maximum of 3 Grenades per turn per unit may be used.  Detachments may not purchase grenades, grenades may be used as a charge reaction.

Flame Siphon: 30 points Journeymen only (and suicidally stupid ones at that)restrictions 1 per 2000 points in the army  Flame siphons have a range of 16 inches no long range S5 roll an artillery dice for hits No AS as flame will penetrate the best armor roasting the lungs of it’s victims, flaming attack.  After a flame siphon causes it’s first wound of the game it causes Terror, if a unit suffers a wound from a flame siphon it must take an immediate panic test.  If a unit panics it will flee an extra D6 to remove itself from the terrifying flame siphon, eg. cavalry’s 3D6 becomes 4D6.  Flame siphons can be used during a charge reaction, or during the first round of close combat only, after that the siphoneer will move to the back of the unit to protect his sensitive, flammable equipment,(probably to the relief of his companions)

     Flame Siphon Misfire table :icon_eek:: If a siphoneer rolls a one while attempting to spew liquid fire into his enemy, something has gone wrong, when this happens roll a d6 to determine the result.
  On a roll of one the flame siphon has gone off within the siphoneer’s own unit roll artillery dice terror and panic dice as appropriate.  On a roll of 2-5 the flame siphoneer notes something very wrong with his temperamental machine and hastily moves to the safety of the rear rank to remedy the problem, he may fight as normal in the next turn. On a roll of 6 the flame siphon’s return valve has cooked off and for the safely of the siphoneer he must purge the whole tank empty, roll three artillery dice instead of the usual one for the target and the flame siphon cannot shoot again in the game, the journeyman may however use any other weapons if so equipped.

Flying outriders:  It was during a demontration of the outlandish flying skills of the birdmen of catrazza that Hans Von Waldenhof was inspired.  He swiftly gathered the broken pieces of a shattered glider as well as the wounded pilot citing Inperial security reasons, then after many failed experiments and several modifications to the design we have this.  TA DAAA 1 unit per 2000 points. Outriders may purchase a flying upgrade for 15 points per model ( becomesUS 1) this takes into account the loss of the horse's points, the unit gains skirmish in place of fast cavalry, and the addition of falling breech blocks to their RHG's, in addition if led by a champion they may purchase grenadoes. Personal weapon options are still availiable. 


Hook Bill 10 points:  As normal halberd, except all rolls to wound of 6 ignore armour saves.  May only be used on foot.  Elector Count, Captain or unit Champion only.

Man-Catcher 10 points:  Two handed weapon. It may only be used on foot.  Confers killing blow, except opponent may attempt an armour save.  Elector Count, Captain or unit Champion only.

Ball and Chain 15 points:  Counts as a flail, except confers  +3S in first round of combat  Elector Count, Captain or unit Champion only.

Silver dipped bullets: available to troops as well as a characters pistol or handgun. +1 pt for each troop, +4 pts for Hero class, +8pts for lords.   counts as being loaded with Blessed silver bullets. These bullets are magical. Against all models with the undead, Vampiric, or daemonic rules (and Forest spirits) it also adds +1 strength to the shot fired and a successful wound caused by a character counts as D3 wounds rather than one, troops using these will still only cause one wound.

Experimental artillery rounds:
Chain shot: range 42 S6 D3 troops per rank for full range.  Hans Von Eggendorf had the brilliant idea of riveting two cannonballs to each other by a short stout chain after being inspired by the antics of a goblin fanatic, (through a spotting scope at a safe distance of course) the rest is military history.  The D3 variable represents the action of the twinned balls spinning through the unit at high velocity. +20 points to equip a cannon with these.

High Explosive Mortar Bombs:  Highly volatile these make even seasoned gunners nervous, but when needs must the daemon drives. Rules as mortar; under the hole S8 d3 wounds, S5 -4 AS D3 wounds to all others.  +25 points to equip a mortar with these


that'll do for today's modifications may 20th about 2:00 local

Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Derek Contyre on May 20, 2009, 09:00:18 AM
I like your idea smashthedean, its not too technical and its something we can fit into an army easily
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: MagicJuggler on May 20, 2009, 01:54:11 PM
Why not make the Flame Siphon a throwable flame template though (similar to a salamander, warpfire thrower, flame cannon, etc), a breath weapon, or even a "Draw a line weapon" similar to a Burning Head?
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on May 20, 2009, 06:50:04 PM
thats a possibility magicjuggler, but the flame thrower is supposed to be an area effect weapon, (spray and make em pray ;P ) I trust my logic of leaving it to the half trained journeymen to use is not lost on the rest of us.  The logic I have for making the damage calculation from a die roll as opposed to a template is that the siphoneer will tailor his spraying to the target, like a kid with a supersoaker or someone using a water fire extinguisher.  If needed, either of these could just let their water flow sit on a single target or spray down the whole neighborhood, a flame template doesn't do that.

What do you all think of the unlockable abilities in the schola bellator or imperial tactica sections.  I also added our own birdmen as outrider upgrades and am interested in hearing your reaction to the empire fantasy "sharps rifles" i've added in the form of the "dropping breech block" rifles.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: mwalsh867 on May 21, 2009, 03:52:03 AM
VORLAGENINGENIEUR (MASTER ENGINEER)

Stats: As current Master Engineer except BS 5.

Equipment: Hand weapon.

Options: Light armor +XXX or heavy armor +XXX.  Brace of pistols +XXX, grenade-launching blunderbuss +XXX, handgun +XXX, Hochland longrifle +XXX, repeater handgun +XXX, repeater pistol and pistol +XXX.  Warhorse +XXX and barding +XXX or mechanical steed +XXX.

An unmounted Master Engineer may be accompanied by a great cannon +XXX or mortar +XXX.  The artillery piece is crewed by three crew, and up to two additional crew may be added +5 each.  The artillery piece and crew are deployed with the Master Engineer when all other characters are deployed.  The Master Engineer must remain within 2” of the artillery piece.  The artillery piece benefits from the Master of Ballistics rule, below.  If the artillery piece is destroyed, the Master Engineer model is removed as well.

Special Rules: Extra Crewman, Master of Ballistics (both as current rulebook).

Keep current points costs for all upgrades/Captains points costs for pgrades not currently available to Master Engineer.  Artillery pieces at current points cost.

I like this version a lot.  Engineer can pack a little punch at a distance with a decent armor save to potentially fight off war machne hunters, AND alleviates the Special choice crunch.  Basically, you give up a Hero choice for a cannon or mortar. 

Nifty?

-Matt
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Eisenherz on June 07, 2009, 11:40:59 PM
VORLAGENINGENIEUR (MASTER ENGINEER)

"Vorlage" is German for template, sample, model or, well "master" as in master-copy. The German edition of the army book has "Technicus" for engineer, so you are probably looking for a "Meistertechnicus", if you like a Teutonic touch in your nomenclature.

As I see it, there are two basic ways to go:

One would be something like a champion upgrade for a canon crew (same as before only W1, no hero slot, ballistic arms options only) at about 30pts(?)

Another would be a somewhat worthwhile hero: BS5, Ld8, some power-up on his artillery ability, same cost as before

Well, as we are at it - why not have them both? Engineer as crewman champion, master engineer as hero choice!
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on June 08, 2009, 08:52:33 PM
Just exactly what I was getting at in my trio of choices a unit upgrade, hero and lord class characters. 

I would like to see as you can probably detect, the engineers as a unit buffing type, who unlocks otherwise unusable technologies or army abilities.  These would be muck like the VC special powers but not on the same sort of scale
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Eisenherz on June 11, 2009, 10:01:40 AM
 :| not so sure about the lord level engineer, I don't envision them as that kind of army leading figure.

Maybe a "take more warmachines"-upgrade to the GotE with some engineery name to it, but not more.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on June 19, 2009, 09:02:26 PM
Certainly another possibility, although you could interpret the rules for him as being essentially a captain upgrade or a parallel GotE at 60 points before upgrades he can be a very cheap otption for an army leader and with a Stank as a mount choice basically comes with a spare rare choice (you'd still have to pay)  and with army upgrades and unlockable units would be a good choice.

Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Empireguard on July 13, 2009, 02:39:39 AM
Reroll Ability-  If an Empire Engineer is on the table,  ALL warmachines get a reroll in case of a misfire.  His coaching and efficiency amongst the war machine crews prior to battle, and on the warpath have boosted their abilities on the field.  If an Engineer crews a War Machine,  his BS is utilized when necessary, and a second Reroll can be applied in case of a misfire.

To be honest I hate most 0-1 restrictions (unless it’s a special character) and any Effects all Ability’s. Mainly because in a 500pts battle  who cares about 0-1, in 2000pts its slightly restrictive but in 10,000pts it sucks. Same with the Effects all in 10,000pts it’s over powered in 2000pts it probably fine but in 500pts it sucks.

I think a better rules if you want to go this way would be all units with 3” (or some other length) get reroll fail to hits from shooting ( I just thought this might be interested as then you could use him in outriders, handgunner units or things like that) or in the case of artillery they may Reroll a misfire.

Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on July 14, 2009, 05:22:59 AM
yeah I like an x/ y army points ratio for rarer characters but then I kind of would rather see it completely open except for special one of a kind chars, theme armys can be built then.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Gorthac on August 07, 2009, 03:59:10 PM
Empireguard had a good point I had thought of earlier to myself. Extend the reroll ability to within like 6" of the engineer.

Additionally I completely agree on the BS 5.

As an additive bonus, you should be able to upgrade a unit of knights to ride mechanosteeds at +15 points each if you wield an engineer. Or if the knights would be uncomfortable with it, it could be an upgrade for pistoliers/outriders instead. 15 Points could be too few thou, the potential hitting power in 5d3 S4 impact hits + what knights hit normally is rather hot! So maybe the mechanosteeds should be 20 points each instead. I don't know, I just like to throw ideas out there!
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: bojones16 on August 08, 2009, 11:18:02 AM
I think the only reason why he is only BS4 is cause could you imagine a helblaster at BS5 but they could of got around this by saying the he gets +1 to hit with hochland pistols etc...
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Blauer Nebel on August 08, 2009, 11:58:55 AM
But the Engineer takes a valuable Hero place that could be used for a Warrior Priest, BSB, or Wizard. Sure, BS 5 Helblaster sounds big and bad, unless it explodes on the first go and kills your hero (and any gear he might be carrying) instantly. I think BS 5 should've been a given.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: jan_boruta on August 08, 2009, 07:15:31 PM
Guys at Polish forums suggested moving the Engineer to Core (saying it would be a similar case to emoelf Assassin).

But, they also thought about making the state troops cost less than clanrats. :ph34r:
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: bojones16 on August 09, 2009, 02:35:03 AM
I know Nebel we don't have the luxury to spend hero slots on Engineers like dwarfs. I also agree that he should have better BS. That a champ can out shoot a hero.

State Troops being cheaper than clan rats will never happen
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Blauer Nebel on August 09, 2009, 08:15:23 AM
Which is good, I think. I don't want Empire to be a horde army.

I always saw Empire to be equivocal to Imperial Guard. You can take a lot, sure, and have a lot of troops, or you can outfit the army to be more elite. Lots of room for customization. The under-dog factor is really appealing, too, having to use a lot more strategy to get the job done. Unfortunately, with the new IG Codex, any idiot can win with that army now, but that's another topic altogether...
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Freman Bloodglaive on August 09, 2009, 09:28:07 AM
There's a gap there.

Strategy is a good thing, but what's the point when other armies can inflict enough casualties to swing a combat even against the benefit of detachment charges, full ranks and full command with war banner?

The higher the power level of the army you're facing, the greater the work you have to put in to win. If you're a vastly superior General that's okay. If you're of moderately equal ability then it's a struggle, and if you're inferior then there's little hope. Meanwhile the opponent has an easy time of it.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Blauer Nebel on August 09, 2009, 10:19:23 AM
Oh, I agree. Problem is, as seen with 40K (where I have more experience), instead of toning down armies over time, they keep making them better and better. Like current MMOs. Instead of their being a player-skill component, it's just who (i.e., what class) gets the next upgrade or who (i.e., player) has the best gear. Eventually it boils over until even Empire will have a flock of dragons and a naval enfillade spotter to drop D3 mortar rounds from off-table if he doesn't move the round before...

Although, that'd be kinda' cool. The ship firing onto the table, I mean (not the dragons - they blow).
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Freman Bloodglaive on August 09, 2009, 10:40:50 AM
I know that, I play Space Wolves.

October will be good.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Blauer Nebel on August 09, 2009, 10:43:42 AM
I've never been a Space Wolves fan, but I'm a Black Templar, so I might get the new SW Codex anyway. Maybe do a counts-as if they have the appropriate units to make Black Templars out of (5th Edition reamed BT so goddamned hard I can't bring myself to send them into the fray against anyone, even Sisters!).
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Gorthac on August 09, 2009, 10:52:46 AM
Guys, back to WFB and how to fix the engineer, please  :icon_neutral:
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: DaCone2 on August 09, 2009, 02:13:36 PM
I think leave the engineer's stats as they are but give him some slightly different special rules. Roughly the same pts too.

Can you imagine actually facing a BS5 helblaster? Average 16-18 shots per turn hitting large targets on 2+ at long range? ( assuming 18, thats 15 hits )

I think the best way to get around this is like smashthedean said and make it so that he can have more accurate weapons. ( he'd keep the better quality / more precise tools for himself wouldn't he? ) Make it so that for 5 pts he gets +1 to hit with any missile weapon thats not artillery.


For special rules i think it'd be cool if there were things like:

Cannons / Mortars within 6 inches of him get to re-roll one artillery dice ( as if he was with them currently )

Armywise it might be interesting it he made a unit of outriders core, or maybe make it so that you can have 0-1 set of 2 cannons / mortars that count as one special choice. That'd free up some a special slot for things that aren't artillery  :icon_biggrin:

It'd also be cool if they made it so that if you had an engineer, you could get some of the more outlandish stuff as rare choices. The book mentions "Hugon's Terror Bell" and a "Thunder Barrel"

Finally make it so that there was a small list of engineer specific weapons for extra cost, i.e. more random stuff that only he really knows how it works. Or perhaps make it so that 0-1 unit of handgunners gets more accurate weapons for x pts per model? People have suggested chain cannonballs, to simplify it, how about that it can hit 2 per rank rather than just 1? How about Chain Mortars using the normal guess but S4, small template and that fire 3 shots that from original position? There must be loads of ideas out there?
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Derek Contyre on August 10, 2009, 12:44:33 PM
Or what about an engineer that actually makes a differance in the game?

I wouldn't mind seeing like if you take an engineer he has the option of buying an artillery piece that can be taken as a "mount" for him or something. I mean that at least would be cool.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: warhammerlord_soth on August 10, 2009, 01:01:13 PM
Or what about an engineer that actually makes a differance in the game?

I wouldn't mind seeing like if you take an engineer he has the option of buying an artillery piece that can be taken as a "mount" for him or something. I mean that at least would be cool.

Something like a mechanical horse, then ?
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Derek Contyre on August 11, 2009, 10:33:11 AM
No like if you take an engineer then he can take a great cannon included as a single hero
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: The Dice-Shaman on October 25, 2009, 06:43:20 AM
at 20 points, no hero slot, as unit upgrade... I might reconsider EVER fielding one in my armies...

Looks like the best idea so far to me now that Skaven can do that exact thing with their master moulders.

Think about it, the handgunner unit champ sucks as bad as the Eng. Hero counterpart! I take outriders and give the champ the longrifle if I want something sniped. So make Eng. available to H-guns and artillary as upgrades sounds great and fair considering the trend-evidence now available.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on October 25, 2009, 08:56:59 AM
Reiterate:  4 levels of engineer character, unit champion, journeyman/ artillerytech, hero, lord (whatever he actually gets called).

Have unit buff skills and technologies available to the army through the engineers guild, 

Lots of other threads have come up with brilliant ideas that could be engineer based unlockable rule concepts like grenadoes, defensive works, offensive works, etc.

Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Derek Contyre on October 25, 2009, 11:40:18 AM
How does one get offensive works. . .

(flashback of braveheart, pitching the battle field before the battle)
We could make traps of the game, like make a random hill explode before the game starts and everything on or within so far takes d6 s6 with no save whatso ever and then we can have a unit of griffon riders and a wolfship that fires from off the board. . .
Oh wait thats 40k. my bad.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on October 26, 2009, 12:52:25 AM
rather more extreme than I was thinking but basically right, think field preparations that act like magic spells, or artillery.  Generally explodey though :Ohmy:

Also chart the battlefield for artillery, hows that for an engineers skill that mirrors real life.  Yes I actually am allowed to use a tape measure for this game :smile2:
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Derek Contyre on October 26, 2009, 04:54:05 AM
Lol nice ideas..

Gridding the battle field out will be kinda cool, like into four quarters and then the engineer allows us a second guess with the guess ranges. . .
Woah that would be awesome. I'm thinking if we went down that road then we would need to pay dearly.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on October 26, 2009, 06:36:18 PM
built into the cost of our currently overpriced and under performing engineers.  This would also be part of the reason for four different levels of engineer class characters.  Their different skills. I think only the hero and lord class characters would have access to the table gridding skill but other skills that mimic magic could be accessable to the others through the Schola bellator table. 
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Skyros on November 11, 2009, 03:30:49 PM
Currently I see no reason to take an engineer.

Raising his BS is an obvious and sensible move, but it still wouldn't be enough for me to take the engineer.

If he could re-roll any misfire for any warmachine on the map, once per turn, I might consider it, in a warmachine heavy list. Maybe if he could let you take 2x mortars or cannons for 1x special slot...!
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Jaeton on December 02, 2009, 05:05:31 PM
I tend to stick to the policy of keeping things simple and use rules that allready exist in the warhammer world.  Remember how hard it was to explain to an opponent the old steam tank rules (even though I liked them!).

A combination of what has been said prior I think is in order.
The empire engineer should I.M.O. stay as a hero option, they are not dime a dozen characters.  They are rare and special individuals (in the use lots of explosives special way).  I feel his points are appropriate but he needs to bring more of a benefit.  The lets all cannons and mortars within 6" re-roll the first artilery dice is a great idea, we can call it artilery train and I think there was a rule similar to this way back when.  You get the benefit of re-rolls for your mortars and cannons but only by clumping them together so there is balance there. 

The option for heavy armor I'm not a fan of, the guy is a scholar who likes guns not a battle hardened veteran.  The weapon options listed earlier by " NAME "was a good list I don't think we need a million new guns (he is a nifty hero who does not need an entire 4 pages dedicated to crazy rules and weapons).  I don't like the idea of him making entire units better, or the changing of the army structure to make units core.  He is not and should not be a lord, he should fill the role of artilery support at the cost of a hero slot and be able to purchase a cannon/mortar as a mount. like mwalsh suggested (perhaps at slightly reduced cost.)


He can also have the special rule:
Helmut von Openburger's long sighted tubular ocular enhancement spectacles or some other "fancy silly name" which grant the engineer +1 BS when firing missile weapons.  Note: artilery does not count as a missile weapon.

I could maybe see him being in the steam tank and permitting you to re-roll the steam die or +/- 1 to the die roll.  He would be able to shoot out of the top when not in close combat and would die with the steam tank and not be able to dismount from it.

I think we need small elegant changes not super zaney ideas!  my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Derek Contyre on December 04, 2009, 10:12:55 PM
I agree, its not so much new ideas to make the empire great against all the new fangled power armies out there.

Its just simple tweaks.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Jayv on December 10, 2009, 07:41:31 PM
I'd probably take engineers if they were BS5, 15-25 points cheaper and 2 for 1 Hero choices. I have no idea what GW were thinking with BS4...
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Generalisimo on December 10, 2009, 09:27:22 PM
In my view :closed-eyes:, engineer is just fine the way he is right now (maybe Bs 5 would be better)
But he should not be a hero, he could be something like 0-1 engineers for 1000points and 0-2 for 2000points. Something like the priests for the imperial guard (40000). Taking an artillery piece as a mount is also a really nice idea  :happy:
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: MagicJuggler on December 23, 2009, 12:04:13 AM
As a more heretical idea, why not make the Engineer a subset of the Captain and General unit, with individual abilities available for upgrade, alongside similar ones. Not all technical heroes are from the College of Engineers after all. Playing a trickster-type, a "ye olde James Bonde" with rapier and clockwork grenade, would be a riot.

"Maxwell. Otto Maxwell."
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Grutch on January 14, 2010, 08:07:53 PM
After reading through the ideas I have to say I'm still pretty settled with what I opened with. 

BS5 - Which he can use while crewing war machines

Affects all warmachines on the table with 1 free reroll per turn.

Second Reroll is granted to a warmachine he is crewing.

Can bring along a warmachine up to 100 points.  (limiting this to cannons and mortars)  Great idea!

45 points.

Considering the Book Power creep we have been experiencing,  this is not asking for too much.

While I leaned toward the heavy armor option I'd still have to say no.  It doesnt fit his fluff.  I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of armor upgrade in his engineering item lists like an experimental clockwork shield or armor...

Jaeton's well thought out ideas are interesting but I think the Tank has its own master engineer crewing it already, and his changes in regards to the tank should stay in that category.   Also giving +1 to missile weapons besides machines is another thing I'm not keen on. 

It has already been addressed, but if your engineer is going to crew a helblaster, that's a lot of precious eggs in one basket, that can kill him as well on a misfire.  True it will be a deadly combo but there are much worse combos in warhammer than this for cheaper and they don't blow themselves up.

-Grutch


Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: sooti on January 15, 2010, 03:04:27 AM
I completely disagree with BS5.

I doubt a man of education tinking with steamtanks, helblasters, mortars, pidgeon bombs, steam powered horses etc would have enough time to train in ballistics to the point where he is better than a 300 year old Elven archer.

I also beleive engineers shouldnt exist in the games. All warmachine crews would have had extensive training in their machine. They should be good enough to handle them without an engineer. In the case of an engineer needing to man a machine, then that should be the case and it shouldnt offer any real bonuses nor should it be optional. Hes there because he has to be.

Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Dreadaxe on January 15, 2010, 10:09:34 AM
I completely disagree with BS5.

I doubt a man of education tinking with steamtanks, helblasters, mortars, pidgeon bombs, steam powered horses etc would have enough time to train in ballistics to the point where he is better than a 300 year old Elven archer.

I also beleive engineers shouldnt exist in the games. All warmachine crews would have had extensive training in their machine. They should be good enough to handle them without an engineer. In the case of an engineer needing to man a machine, then that should be the case and it shouldnt offer any real bonuses nor should it be optional. Hes there because he has to be.

How do you explain the Outrider champion have BS5. To my opinion the BS5 could be explain the engineer by invention (telescope for example)
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 15, 2010, 11:28:48 AM
I still don´t understand the Ws and Bs of 10 for the dark elf assassin but hey it is a game they don´t have to explain anything Bs of 5 for a hero choice is reasonable (he could wear a selfmade pair of....glasses)  either that or he should grant the whole army a bonus because he sits all the time in his backyard garage tinkering on the equipment.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Gneisenau on January 15, 2010, 11:54:23 AM
I doubt a man of education tinking with steamtanks, helblasters, mortars, pidgeon bombs, steam powered horses etc would have enough time to train in ballistics to the point where he is better than a 300 year old Elven archer.

This is the game where the 300 year old Elven archer strikes faster than the 500 year old vampiric master of martial arts, just because he has a day of militia training once a month.  :icon_wink:

Let's face it, after the "Speed of Asuryan" failure, anything can be justified.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 15, 2010, 11:56:07 AM
But perhaps some guys from Sweden organize the militia, than it would be okish I guess.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on January 15, 2010, 08:02:04 PM
Quote
This is the game where the 300 year old Elven archer strikes faster than the 500 year old vampiric master of martial arts, just because he has a day of militia training once a month. 

Let's face it, after the "Speed of Asuryan" failure, anything can be justified.

so why not the 4 classes of engineers or even 2 or 3 wherein they have a variety of weapons and certain unlockable unit types or army abilities by their presence on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on January 15, 2010, 08:15:31 PM
It would be too much fun  :::cheers::: I would say find someone to playtest and give us some engineeeeeeer.
Title: Re: Engineer 8.0
Post by: polybus11 on February 02, 2010, 03:12:26 PM
Another Idea for an engie.. allow him to ride in the Steam Tank and add this rule: Instead of generating steam points for the turn, instead gain D6 wounds (Max 10) as the engineer fixes the darn thing.

Not sure if I would allow this rule in combat.. prolly not.