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Author Topic: Halberds bad? Why?  (Read 22592 times)

Offline M. Armand

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Halberds bad? Why?
« on: February 10, 2010, 04:45:29 AM »
So just got my Empire army book in today and I'm confused as to why Halberds are considered so bad.  Is it because the way most Empire strategies go you wait for the enemy to charge you?  (spearmen) or what?  Appreciate the explainations.  :smile2:
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Offline Tiberius

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 04:55:27 AM »
It has to do with statics.  Statistically Swordsmen are best, then spearmen, then halberdiers.

To put simply Swordsmen had the most good things.  4+ armor save in combat, one better weapon skill and one better initiative.
Spearmen have 5+ armor save in combat, but 2 ranks of attack (assuming you have 2 ranks).
Halberdiers just have a 6+ armor save in combat and strength 4.

So swordsmen have 5 good things, spearmen 3, and halberdiers 2.  (if you count each point of save as a good thing)

But what fun would it be if everyone just used swordsmen?  If you just want to win, take swordsmen, if you want to have fun, take whenever the hell you want. :biggriin:

Offline M. Armand

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2010, 05:18:10 AM »
OK.  I think I understand.  Why does Emperor Karl Franz want every province to have a standing number of Halberdiers then?  Wierd. 

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Offline Weezing

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 05:21:11 AM »
Because it is more of a lore thing than a tabletop thing. I would guess that halberds are standard because they are effective at killing scary monsters normal humans can't take care of by themselves.

Offline Davido

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2010, 05:49:06 AM »
halberds are not that much worse then the other state troops, the only problem is all our state troops suck and the halberds are slightly worse then the rest.

However if you like the look of halberds go for them, I would suggest not giving them shields to keep them cheap, They can be largely ignored as most people know their crap. That said 25 for 145 pts is usually enough for a second attack wave, ie, blow a whole in the enemy line with IC knights and then charge with halberds and IC knights at the same time with the knights coming from behind, The trick is to pick your targets and to not play arseholes.
Yay my rocket battery finally killed something.What do you mean those are my halberdiers.

Offline Northern Storm

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 06:15:26 AM »
Halberds are great, it's the 6+ save Halberdiers get in close combat which makes them worthless in comparison to Spearmen and Swordsmen.

Offline Davido

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 07:46:37 AM »
true but then again against deathstars who have s6 and ws 5 or better your better off having only spent the 145 pionts on the halberds as opposed to the 175 for swordsmen, plus the champ has a better channce of doing some kills with 2 attacks at s4
Yay my rocket battery finally killed something.What do you mean those are my halberdiers.

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 08:12:09 AM »
Halberds aren't bad, so much as they're not good, and that's the problem all our infantry (flagellents and to a lesser extent greatswords excepted) face. However of our not good infantry they're the worst.

Strength 4 is nice, on an Orc boy. But the Orc can have two strength 4 attacks in combat protected by his toughness 4. Our Halberd has strength 4 but only one attack, and toughness 3 dies pretty quickly.

Strength 4 or not an Empire unit is not going to win combat with its ability to rack up kills, rather through static combat resolution. Giving away wounds through their poor save is what makes the Halberd inferior to our other options.
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Offline White Knight

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 09:35:24 AM »
I haven't played a game in years now, but I will always take look and feel over stats when selecting troops.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 09:51:18 AM »
Indeed, I try to do that too.
GW made the game thinking people like to play balls more than people really do. Hence, str4 is more likely to kill something, and I think Empire was made more with the mindset that people are usually more interested in playing with balls of steel and try to kill some enemies, than just play math games of statistics. With that in mind, str4 is more killy, and that is why the author of the Empire book proudly said that he "would take str4 any day!"
However, he most likely play the game more from a leisure perspective, expecting most people to do the same, and by that logic, being slightly better at killing something is more awesome than being more able to survive.

The reality of competitive gaming shattered that illusion, but GW have lots of old school roleplaying ideas about the game still, and it looks like they want to reinforce that ideal once again.
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 10:00:03 AM »
Given the high strength of most things the Empire face, the armour save isnt so much of an issue imo - I dont think my swordsmen or greatswords even are more survavable in the current WFB battlefield than spearmen or halberdiers. But thats just anectdotal based on my own experiences...


On the other hand, halberds are cheap, can pack a punch if they get to charge and more importantly look awesome on the battlefield, especially when you plonk down a unit of 40 plus detachments.
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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 03:02:13 PM »
When the enemy has ranks and banners and charges in shoulder-to-shoulder so that you cannot get a flank counter charge off, an Empire unit is not going to win through SCR either, and when that unit is more killy as well, all State Troops are in trouble. I agree with what Monsieur de Crux says: Giving away wounds is a general problem of Empire State Troops. The difference is one of having a broken tool and one that isn't working.
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Offline Finlay

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 03:13:44 PM »
ws3, 6+ save

/thread.
I don't care about the rules.

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Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 04:29:48 PM »
OK.  I think I understand.  Why does Emperor Karl Franz want every province to have a standing number of Halberdiers then?  Wierd.


Because they rarely write the mechanics of the rules to match the background.


Offline Sanctus

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 04:32:30 PM »
As far as i'm concerned , swordsmen for ranked up units and halberdiers for detachments.

Offline Almasy Leitdorf

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 04:41:26 PM »
I like Halberdiers equipped with Shields. This gives me the option of using either handweapon and shield or halberds depending on foe and situation.

Offline M. Armand

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2010, 05:24:41 PM »


The reality of competitive gaming shattered that illusion, but GW have lots of old school roleplaying ideas about the game still, and it looks like they want to reinforce that ideal once again.

Isn't that sad though?  I remember people used to make lists based more on the background than what was particularly effective.  Mayhap it's just the people I used to play with, I don't know.
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Offline Minsc

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2010, 06:26:36 PM »
Quote
I like Halberdiers equipped with Shields. This gives me the option of using either handweapon and shield or halberds depending on foe and situation.

The problem here is that if you use the shields, they cost just as much as Swordsmen except with -1 WS and -1 I. Thats a huge difference when they perform the same role.

Offline Generalisimo

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2010, 06:34:30 PM »
The problem is that a lot of 'gamers' try to win through cheesy lists , never ending gunlines and  tricky rules etc. They want to win no matter what , so they leave you no choice than take a list that can fight back (most of the times without halberdier units ), or stop playing with them. of course you can stay and loose, but after awhile it is annoying.

Offline vesrian

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2010, 09:12:25 PM »
Why does Emperor Karl Franz want every province to have a standing number of Halberdiers then?

He doesn't.
The whole "standing army of halberdiers" is just propaganda spread to lure the Empire's enemies into a false sense of security. The enemy shows up expecting to stomp all over a bunch of wimpy halbardiers and then BAM!! - they get smashed by cannons, tanks, knights, arch lectors, and swordsmen. They never see it coming because they kept hearing about all these sucky halberdiers that make up the Empire army.

Oddly, it seems that many of the empire's own generals have been duped by this "standing army of halberdiers" propaganda as well, despite the overwhelming evidence that there is no such thing. You'd think they'd have figured it out by now. But apparently not. The Emperor must be really good at spreading false rumours.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 09:14:44 PM by vesrian »
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Offline nosramuk

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2010, 10:35:40 PM »
Toughness 3, armour save 6+ and not killy enough to put it frankly. So they can't dish out enough damage to get a high combat resolution and they cant defend themselves enough to prevent the enemy getting combat resolution off them.  As has been said many times before on this forum, if they could have heavy armour, or if halberds gave +2 strength (only on charge maybye) then they would be better.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2010, 11:21:53 PM »
Even with the extra strength or armour save, we are looking at 6 attacks at ws 3.

MAybe two hit, and on average on wounds, then, you are on +6 for combat res. (ranks, standard, outnumber) and then the foe just hit back and kill four, so they are up by 8(ranks, standard, wounds.)
We still lose by two, then fail our LD5 break test and get run down.

To be honest, I just converted all my 6th ed halberdiers into swordsmen for the treachery and greed campaign, but I still want more state troops. . . so looks like more ground pounders for me.(Is 120 state troops enough?) Na, I want at least three units of 25 Halberdiers for fluffy games  :happy:

In a competetive environment, our state troops get trodden on, in a fluffy, friendly game, they shine.

So, if you hate not fielding infantry, don't play people's cheesy lists, get them to write a nice one, and if they don't know, teach them.
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Offline TexasYankee

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2010, 11:54:30 PM »
Why does Emperor Karl Franz want every province to have a standing number of Halberdiers then?

How dare you question the Emperor!  :Ohmy:

Swordsmen/Spearmen/Greatswords for parent companies, Halberdiers for detachments; hit those Chaos Warriors in the flank with a S4! They hate that! (Or at least they laugh at it less than the S3 the swordsmen do . . . if the swordsmen get any attacks back, that is . . . well, whatever you do, just brings lots of them!  :smile2:)
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Offline Marcus_Octavius

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2010, 06:26:24 AM »
Phoenix Guard and Black Guard and Chaos Warriors all show what a Halberdier can do when in th ehands of a skilled soldier.

Our Halberdiers just happen to be lacking any and all skill.  In most cases what an Empire Halberdier is capable of killing is easier killed by Free Company smply because of their 2 attacks!  Numbers of attacks has been what has changed this game so dramatically from static CR (Ranks & Flanks) to dynamic CR of (kills!).

Right now a Halberdier is just a regular Spearman or Free Company Militia Man who has traded his moderately useful weapon in for a moderately heavy axe only to find all of his mates have died to the enemy before they could attack and his 1 attack back just can't cut it.

Good Halberdiers have 4 things going for them.

Armor:
Chaos Warriors/Chosen - Toughness 4 / 4+ Armor
Black Guard - 5+ Armor
Phoenix Guard - 5+ Armor / 4+ Ward

Skills:
WS 5 Phoenix Guard & Chaos Warriors
WS 6 Black Guard & Chaos Chosen

Attacks:
2 attack Warriors/Chosen/Black Guard

Buffs/Special Rules:
High Elf ASF makes sure they strike first allowing for max damage from Phoenix Guard with 1 attack each
Dark Elves get the Cauldron and ASF banner to increase lethality or survival.
Chaos Gets War Shrines that increase Lethality and Chosen get free buffs before the battle begins!

Empire gets untrained humans with 6+ armor and crappy stats, no buffs and mediocre special rules.

Give us even 1 of these various special abilities and Halberdiers will be very common again!
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Offline Bohm-Ermolli

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Re: Halberds bad? Why?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2010, 07:04:57 AM »
I like halberds because of fluff. That and the models are neat. Sure I might not win much in this edition. But a little birdy told me to wait until next edition.
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