Topic: A notification

[Tillmann Spyri]

Hah, turns out the brets are not the only landgrabbers who want to take terratory from you guys. Have a look.

http://www.warvault.net/nemesis/viewtopic.php?p=1407#1407

As of tomorrow the plan is being set into motion that has been set before the Asur commanders by the Twin Thrones of Ulthuan. It is our sacred duty to re-establish elven control and influence over this part of the world so that peace and stability may be ensured. The Heart-stone of Tor Thana is stirring, and with it re-birth the city of Tor Thana shall be re-born.

Armies of the Asur must ensure total control over their given areas so that a stable elven colonial province may be established. The centre of this real shall be the newly re-born city of Tor Thana while in directly following the conflict it shall be ruled by a council of wise and capable leaders. Admiral Giladis is to assume to position of the Steward of Elthin Arvan, High Cartographer Imrazor the role of the chancellor, Enthardon of the Aesnar will become the captain of the armies while the honour of becoming the Champion of Elthin Arvan will befall Andril the Dragon Marshal. This council shall oversee the province until a proper election of the ruling prince can be done.

The main goal of the Asur armies does not change and we are still searching for the crown and thwarting the evil forces just in such a way that our efforts in the two primary goals further our efforts in this one.

Through this proclamation I call our Dwarf, Human and Elven allies to aid us and further our goals for together we can bring harmony back to this troubled part of Elthin Arvan, together, all of us defending this region. While we had our differences in the past our arms are open to the Asrai and we would delighted if they could join us in this task, for should they we would gladly cede them control over groves and glades while we protect plains and hills.

Short version, the asur want a new provence, under their controal. In the heart of the empire.

Make your own judgmnet as to what to think. I have to say, I can't see this going down well with the Empire IC.

[Demonslayer]

By Sigmar, the greedy spe have returned! And in our own lands, none the less. What is it with these people always trying to claim land which isn't theirs? This reminds me of the twilight campaign where the Asur tried to take everything from the council of light, after performing horribly throughout that campaign.

I say we take up arms against them. Not to destroy their entire army, just to harrass them so they won't reach their objective. Wait to see whether the Druchii or Asur win a battle, and then move in to kill or capture the asur survivors. Or sabotage their baggage trains or something.
Remember, we don't want them to loose, but we don't want them to win either.

[Helborg]

I tried to warn you on asur.org as "ambassador"  but you wouldn't listen kill every single elf in your sight they're nothing but talanted scum

Grandmaster Sanj

[clausewitz]

Ok I'll going to start by quoting from the Dark Elf week 2 dispatches.

Sowing discord and rebellion amongst the citizens of the Empire is of the greatest satisfaction to the Witch King and his plans to disrupt the claims of all the interested parties is beginning to take shape.

And then remind people that Tillman Spyri is a guest from Druchii.net.

Now I am not suggesting that what Tillman has quoted is not true, but we do need to consider motivations here.

From the Druchii, conflict between Empire and Asur is good.  It weakens the Asur, making it easier for the Druchii to be the ones taking control of Tor Thana and other places of interest to them.  It also weakens the Empire's forces allowing the Druchii to perpretrate further atrocities such as..

In the village of Egondorf in the Barren Hills a generation was taken in a single night. The town militia who kept guard over the town still lay in their beds or stood by their posts when the sunrise came. Poisoned knife wounds scored their bodies leaving them like so many grotesque statues to the horror of those who would seek to blame them for their incompetence.

At the same instant on the other side of the forest, the Annointed Kaleth led his followers in a daring raid against the fortified town of Albrechtsdorf . The town gates were locked and barred, the sentries posted to scout the edges of the forest, torches in the streets burned through the night to chase away the shadows. Nevertheless, when the dawn came families and friends found their loved ones missing with no trace of a struggle. The only evidence of any event at all was a slender elven blade left protruding from the town gate.

Now moving on the Asur goal itself.  Some questions need to be answered to determine what effect that would actually have on the Empire.

Location?  Tor Thana is a ruin, like all ruins prone to be a home to all kinds of denizens that wish to shun open society.  In the Olde Worlde that means any of the enemies of man; undead, mutants, greenskins and worse.  So would a colony of Asur be worse than this?  And Tor Thana is no Imperial town, none of our citizens are being displaced.

Political significance?  Asur living in Tor Thana would need resources, the Empire is clearly where they would need to get them.  This could create many trading benefits.  This would in turn create greater understanding between Asur and man.

Military threat?  How many Asur are likely to leave Ulthuan for this new settlement?  How many of them would be free from building/farming etc to practice military aims?  Compare this to the armies of the Empire, in their own backyard.  The realm of Tor Thana would effectively be surrounded, cut off from aid and at the mercy of the much larger Imperial armies.  So it seems to me that the Asur would want, in fact need, peace with the Empire for this endeavor to succeed.

So it seems to me that in order for the Asur to succeed they would need to..
1.  Clear the area of their enemies; Druchii, Greenskins, Undead, forces of Chaos etc.  Which if we had enough time and men would be trying to do ourselves.
2.  Agree a peace with the Empire that allows them use of the land.  Opportunities for some concessions from the Asur for the Empire here.
3.  Rebuild the city, needing resources and perhaps labour from the Empire.  Thus trade begins.

I just do not see this as a threat to the Empire.

As Tillman says make your own judgement, but try to give it some thought.  Knee-jerk reactions do us no good whatsoever.

[Tillmann Spyri]

Clauswitz, read it closely. It's not just Tor Thana, that's one peice of it, the capital of the realm.

Armies of the Asur must ensure total control over their given areas so that a stable elven colonial province may be established. The centre of this realm shall be the newly re-born city of Tor Thana

 They're trying for the whole great forest. It's us who just want Tor Thana. I make no claim to impartiallity, but I think you ought to know what the Asur want.

[Demonslayer]

I just do not see this as a threat to the Empire.

But it is. As Tillmans says, it's not just the ruins they're after. Even though I find that your words make, that we should perhaps give them the benefit of doubt, it's just too fishy. The Asur want the Empire, stunties and Bretonnia to help them so that the Asur and Asrai can divide OUR land among them. For our land it is.
And yes, there's no inhabitants of the Empire there. But how long will it take for the Asur to want other locations they find interesting?

Opportunities for some concessions from the Asur for the Empire here.

I don't think so, and the reason is simple; the Grand Dwarf Alliance. They've got their buddies backing them up. And let's not forget the overall attitude of "you can either serve us, leave, or get knocked out of the way" the other races have been having. Why should it change now?

Trade would be good, but I don't think that the prospect of a trading partner will weigh up to all the risks and downsides in this.

[Tillmann Spyri]

And taking that in mind, there are civilans in the forest. Towns like Egondorf, Delbetz, Albrecthsdolf... I'm sorry about this, and as Claustwitz has told you, I am biased. But there are civilians on this land that would be claimed by the elves. And how will they fare, under masters who regard man as lesser to them in every way? (a generalisation, but you get my point.) Even if they don't hate them, would they help them as much as their own kind?

Again, sorry. It's not my choise, but I like to think if I was an Empire player, I'd say the same things.

[Michael W]

Any type of significant elven presence will take a large amount of time - and effort - to establish.  We can deal with that, in whatever way we wish, after we have dealt with the larger issues in the area.  And if we secure the Crown, we can quite easily demand that the Asur leave Tor Thana in exchange for us handing over the Crown to someone that they trust more.

Let's focus on taking back prisoners from the Druchii, finding the Crown, and punishing the Dwarves.  Then we can deal with the Elves.

[Lord Alexander]

Kill every bloody elf you see!! If someone in your area has pointed ears then mercilessly slaughter them!!! Leave none alive!!!

[clausewitz]

Clauswitz, read it closely. It's not just Tor Thana, that's one peice of it, the capital of the realm.

Armies of the Asur must ensure total control over their given areas so that a stable elven colonial province may be established. The centre of this realm shall be the newly re-born city of Tor Thana

 They're trying for the whole great forest. It's us who just want Tor Thana. I make no claim to impartiallity, but I think you ought to know what the Asur want.

I read it Tillman.  There is no actual mention of the extent of the realm in your quotation.  Yes it would extend beyond Tor Thana, as does the influence of any major city on its surrounding area.

But let us be realistic.  The Asur simly do not have the numbers to make any sizeable claim on Empire land.  This immutable fact places restrainst on any plans made by the Asur players more than anything that we can do to influence the campaign.

The bottom line is that if the Asur want any long term presence within the Empire they can only do it with our consent.

What do you think the Empire's responce would be if neighboring Imperial settlements were mistreated by the Asur settlers?

I still see this problem as something of a smokescreen.  The threat presented by the Asur is nothing to that of the other foes we face.

Any effort diverted from fighting our true enemies is wasted effort in my eyes.

If come the end of the campaign it somehow manages to becomes something to concern ourselves with, I can see a simple solution.  We can always give the land in question to the Bretonnians  

[Erwin Moltz]

DEATH TO THE POINTY EARED TRAITORS!!!!


KILL'EM ALL!!!!

[Giladis]

I am open to questions.

[Tillmann Spyri]

Question one, how large do you want the realm? that'll settle the argument between me and Clauswitz.

[Giladis]

We plan to clear the ares now dominated by beastmen, orcs, undead and other evils, heal them and than settle. No distinct borders as far as I am conerned but rather a number of settlements functioning to further pacify and secure the region and ensure constant presence of Asur in the Old World, both politicaly and economicaly. We have no quarel with the men of the Empire and I am certain members of this site are avare of the elven stance about these lands no matter how insulting it may be to them but is the way how elves see the world.

As far as Asur are concerned sharing this are with men of the Empire is like Humans living alongside very inteligent (more evolved that chimanze) apes.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Greetings Lord Giladis...so would the Elves pay taxes to the empire for moving goods through the areas bordering the province Tana? I would greet Elves with great joy in the area because right now I think in the area is full of vile greenskins and beastmen. The Elves would first kill those before trying to enforce law to imperial citizens.

[Tillmann Spyri]

So; Asur, and human, living in perfect harmony?

A bit too goody goodie IMO. And I'm not sure that the Empire will understand the idea of a state without boarders. how they will react, well, i leave that to you guys.

Thanks for the clarification though, Giladis

[Giladis]

Greetings Lord Giladis...so would the Elves pay taxes to the empire for moving goods through the areas bordering the province Tana? I would greet Elves with great joy in the area because right now I think in the area is full of vile greenskins and beastmen. The Elves would first kill those before trying to enforce law to imperial citizens.

I am not sure about taxes but something might be achieved through negotiations. Also I highly doubt Elves would try to enforce their law upon Imperial citizens if for no other reason that because they don't see you worthy as being affected by elven law. A coegzistence is possible with as little as possible contact due o different ways of life and understanding of the world and others.

[clausewitz]

We plan to clear the ares now dominated by beastmen, orcs, undead and other evils, heal them and than settle. No distinct borders as far as I am conerned but rather a number of settlements functioning to further pacify and secure the region and ensure constant presence of Asur in the Old World, both politicaly and economicaly. We have no quarel with the men of the Empire and I am certain members of this site are avare of the elven stance about these lands no matter how insulting it may be to them but is the way how elves see the world.

As far as Asur are concerned sharing this are with men of the Empire is like Humans living alongside very inteligent (more evolved that chimanze) apes.

Thanks for dropping by to answer questions Giladis.  Please ignore the posts from people that can't manage to remove caps lock etc.

I do take issue with the bold part of your statement.  This makes the Asur sound positively stupid.  How could any intelligent race not understand that another race that can build houses, read and write, create all manner of things such as literary works, invent tools and weapons etc etc must be intelligent.  How can these actions be ascribed to animals?

Surely a more suitable metaphor would be the way historical Romans viewed the various "barbarian" nations they encountered.  I can understand that the Asur would consider humans uncivilised, uncultured barbarians.  But to lump us together with the birds and the bees is absurd.

Putting that aside I have some questions.

1. Why did the Asur not come here to discuss this idea first?  Seems like we should have been the first people you asked.
2. Why do the Asur want to settle here?
3. Do the Asur intend to seek Imperial permission to settle?

[Fandir Nightshade]

Hmm some scepsis sure isn^t wrong placed..perhaps the native americans also thought there won^t be any law enforced to them. Right now the situation is like there is not much of a choice for the empire because there seem to be enemies everywhere and the allies of old forget their oaths. So if some elves could establish a settlement around tor thana why not there is enough timber and space to settle and never have any conflict with Man. Also the elves would be in an dependent position and if they would start to trouble the empire they could  be sieged and starved within a year.

[Giladis]

1. Why did the Asur not come here to discuss this idea first?  Seems like we should have been the first people you asked.
We are trying to play as much IC as possible so do first ask questions later definatly fits that part
2. Why do the Asur want to settle here?
With the new book just over the horizont and all we are hoping to show that after millenia of sleap the Asur Empire ( ruled by a King ) is slowly starting to avake and decides it is time to reasert their influence over their old domains in one way or another - militarily, economicaly, diplomaticaly.
3. Do the Asur intend to seek Imperial permission to settle?
Highly uncharacerful so highly unlikely, more probably they will come to KF and say "We dumped couple a hundred colonists in the great forest and they live there now treat them nice.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Hmm i personally would believe that IC playing would be at least some elves realizing that their days are gone and it would be time to accept Man as the new Power against Chaos in the world. But hey that is just me....In the new army book it also could state that the new everqueen started a new baby boom for the elves and the race goes back to the old splendour...you never know.

[clausewitz]

1. Why did the Asur not come here to discuss this idea first?  Seems like we should have been the first people you asked.

We are trying to play as much IC as possible so do first ask questions later definatly fits that part

I understand the desire to work IC.  So in turn I will lament the failure of this endeavor and the deaths of the Asur that will surely happen due to their short-sightedness.
Do first, ask second.... exactly how the Asur behaved when they last had settlements in the old world, and we all know how that turned out... well except the Asur who seem to have forgotten.

2. Why do the Asur want to settle here?
With the new book just over the horizont and all we are hoping to show that after millenia of sleap the Asur Empire ( ruled by a King ) is slowly starting to avake and decides it is time to reasert their influence over their old domains in one way or another - militarily, economicaly, diplomaticaly.

I can see why you would want to do this, and in general I wouldn't object.  So why of the three means by which you could choose to reassert your influence have you choosen the military option?  Surely a more suitable plan would have been a major diplomatic push.

3. Do the Asur intend to seek Imperial permission to settle?
Highly uncharacerful so highly unlikely, more probably they will come to KF and say "We dumped couple a hundred colonists in the great forest and they live there now treat them nice.

And KF might reply "and why should I allow these colonists in my forest?".
Since the Asur are turning arch-imperialists can they back it up?  You plan to leave a few hundred colonists in a realm whose armies number in the tens of thousands.  No matter how arrogant one is surely some logic must penentrate ones thoughts?

I have stated earlier in the thread that I would not be opposed to the Asur settling in the Empire, on the basis that it would improve relations.  But the plan you have outlined Giladis seems destined to end in bloody conflict.

Is that the goal?

[Tostig]

1. Why did the Orcs and Goblins not come here to discuss this idea first?  Seems like we should have been the first people you asked.
We are trying to play as much IC as possible so do first ask questions later definatly fits that part
2. Why do the Orcs and Goblinswant to settle here?
With the new book just over the horizont and all we are hoping to show that after millenia of sleap the Orcs and Goblins ( united under one ruler ) is slowly starting to avake and decides it is time to reasert their influence over their old domains in one way or another - militarily, economicaly, diplomaticaly.
3. Do the Orcs and Goblins intend to seek Imperial permission to settle?
Highly uncharacerful so highly unlikely, more probably they will come to KF and say "We dumped couple a hundred colonists in the great forest and they live there now treat them nice.

Meh. The Orcs and nicking our land. The Dwarfs are nicking our land. The Ogres are nicking our land. The Asur are nicking our land. Show 'em blackpowder and steel. Better yet, just ignore that they're doing this at all, and just write your own fluff saying that they're carrying out a blockade and not even stepping foot inside the Empire. Why not? It's the kind of bastard tactics the GDA like to use. Do you really think that GW will carry through with it?

From the perspective of getting the internet communities to work together, did you really think this would be a good idea? Oh well, yet again it's demonstrated that the Skaven, the Dark Elven and the Orc communities are better enemies than the forces of light are allies.

Oh well. And empire players - I may be suffering from a little Cassandra syndrome here 

[Veldemere]

Hmmmm here we go again with Elves thinking they are acting in character and so being high handed. Really you should all get over yourselves, you complain that you are marginalised, an ancient race trying to hang onto a small island (not entirely successfully). Maybe you need to adapt to survive, there are elves living in the Empire as citizens not an invading force. Your chances of maintaining a settlement in the Empire without our full support is impossible and with your races superior inteligence you should really know this. Firstly you have no supply lines without us letting you have them, you are also outnumbered and always will be by at least 10 to 1. The more troops you put into the Empire the more exposed you are to the dark elves.

I do not feel this is worth getting too upset about as it is not practical, the reason Tillmann is getting so upset is that it is exactly the same plan as the druchii have, and GW seem to be ignoring that everyone over at Druchii.net are fighting over Tor Thana, do not let this distract us it is a Druchii ploy to try and gain supremecy at the Tor (with exactly the same rediculous plan to occupy).

[Tillmann Spyri]

No. Our plan is to occupy the Tor. Just the Tor. The Asur want similar setelments all over the forest. There is no IC stuff in me giving you this Info, (That tends to end badly) and most of what I said is now irrelevent.