Topic: Tactica: The Griffon Formation

[Holy Hand Grenade]

For those Griffon Formation fans out there:

We are cranking up Tactical Exposition Game (TEG) 2 and it is going to showcase an army list of the forum's choosing to go up against one of my Griffon Formation lists.

If you haven't participated in a TDG or TEG before, now is your chance to get in on the ground floor of the new one.


TEG 2:  Fighting the Griffon

TEG2 is now complete, with an Empire victory over O&G.

I am running the exact same 2500 pt Half-Griffon list versus a new Warriors of Chaos list that won Adepticon recently.

As TEG3 is getting started, we are looking for forum members to join either the Chaos team or my Empire team.  Get in on the action!

 
HHG

[Vyktal]

Hey there, I'm new to Warhammer (and Empire) and after playing a few games and getting beaten a lot, I finally found this thread and was thrilled with the tactics described here! I've attempted an 'Inverted Griffon Formation' army list and would really appreciate any advice which you Griffon Veterans might be able to offer.

The army-specific thread is here: http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=46789.0

Thanks in advance

[Joasht]

Great read!

Was wondering; where would be the best locations to place Warmachines if using this formation?

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Great read!

Was wondering; where would be the best locations to place Warmachines if using this formation?

The answer to this primarily depends on the terrain and enemy your facing, but here a few thoughts:

--Cannons need to see the target and the spot on the ground the cannonball is aimed to bounce off of.  Because of this, I put them behind the edges of the formation so the "wings" can move to protect incoming threats to the cannons and your GC have lanes to spot and shoot incoming targets.

--Another good trick if you have two cannons is to put them on the far edges of your deployment zone.  Even if you leave them undefended, your opponent has to send resources way out there to get them.  This is less chaff you will have to deal with in the center.  Also, this works great against cavalry because your opponent is going to have a difficult time avoiding giving one of your cannons the dreaded flank shot.

--I wish detachments had more room to roam than 3 inches because then you could put Helblasters in between the parent and detachment.  Since you can't, one recommendation I have for a Helblaster is to run a Half-Griffon with a troop detachment on one side of the formation and a Helblaster with some archer detachments on the other.

Hope this helps.
HHG

[Vyktal]

Just wanted to put an appreciation shout-out here for the Griffon Formation!

This weekend I played with 4 other friends in a friendly tournament, 3 games each. I used an 'Inverted Griffon Formation' (IGF) list adapted to my own tastes, and I came first place with 3 straight wins! I played against High Elves, Dark Elves and Empire, the final 2 games being 20-0 and 18-2! Each game took 2-3 hours which was exhausting, but I think a big reason for this was because I'm still very green and therefore sometimes spent too long mulling over tactical decisions.

The main thing I learned from the battles was that tactical use of chaff troops for controlling the battlefield is king. This is exactly where the IGF came in handy, for although there were times when I did not use the detachments in quite the same way HHG suggests, it gave me lots of small detachments to play with and send here and there to distract and divert, many times getting in the way of my enemies charging key units at key moments.

When I first started getting into Warhammer with Empire, the first list I wrote was a variation of the IGF and I won that one too! I then tried some different lists without any IGF, and lost almost all of them... then as soon as I go back to IGF, straight wins! Just goes to show that using detachments is such a powerful tactic.


I'll report back more in future should I have more success

[Noble Korhedron]

Hmmm, at this rate, I'll have to go back and re-write my lists to take advantage of the GF in some manner.... If it helped you THAT much.....

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Just wanted to put an appreciation shout-out here for the Griffon Formation!

This weekend I played with 4 other friends in a friendly tournament, 3 games each. I used an 'Inverted Griffon Formation' (IGF) list adapted to my own tastes, and I came first place with 3 straight wins! I played against High Elves, Dark Elves and Empire, the final 2 games being 20-0 and 18-2! Each game took 2-3 hours which was exhausting, but I think a big reason for this was because I'm still very green and therefore sometimes spent too long mulling over tactical decisions.

The main thing I learned from the battles was that tactical use of chaff troops for controlling the battlefield is king. This is exactly where the IGF came in handy, for although there were times when I did not use the detachments in quite the same way HHG suggests, it gave me lots of small detachments to play with and send here and there to distract and divert, many times getting in the way of my enemies charging key units at key moments.

When I first started getting into Warhammer with Empire, the first list I wrote was a variation of the IGF and I won that one too! I then tried some different lists without any IGF, and lost almost all of them... then as soon as I go back to IGF, straight wins! Just goes to show that using detachments is such a powerful tactic.


I'll report back more in future should I have more success

Glad to hear about your success.

I have played so many different battles with Griffon-like formations-  and I have found there is no set way to run them.  What they really do is give you lots of flexibility.

Many forum members have said that the game is won in the movement phase.  Of course your list has to be decent and your rolls not too sucky, but I do believe that the best chance our humans have against all the nasties out there is to dictate as much as possible what happens, when.

Good luck in your future battles!

 
HHG

[Wojownik]

Long time no see HHG. When will be new TGD? I do miss them.


Cheers

[carmaul]

Long time no see HHG. When will be new TGD? I do miss them.


Cheers

I was actually wondering myself when the next TDG/TEG would be.

It is good to see HHG back though.   

I was planning on starting a thread shortly if HHG didnt, to start some pre-TDG/TEG hype.

[Khalim]

Big shout out to HHG and his Gryphon Formation. I really like how it looks and feels on the table top and it suits my ascetic of an empire army.
Helps that it is damn effective as well, one side thing I have found to be fun is to stick a WH with VHS in the main combat unit as something to deter uber challenges.

So kings to you HHG.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Long time no see HHG. When will be new TGD? I do miss them.


Cheers

I needed a little breather.  Plus, I was deployed overseas for a bit.

It looks like Carmaul has started a nice small battle.  I will crank up another TEG or TDG when he is done.

 
HHG

[carmaul]

Long time no see HHG. When will be new TGD? I do miss them.


Cheers

I needed a little breather.  Plus, I was deployed overseas for a bit.

It looks like Carmaul has started a nice small battle.  I will crank up another TEG or TDG when he is done.

 
HHG

Feel free to help out, or join a side.


And welcome back.  You have been missed. 


Have a drink on my tab.

[emcdunna]

The Idea of a witch hunter in the main unit is great! you can scare an enemy character, use him to take a challenge and protect your general, and on top of everything hes MR2! which he gives to the unit, so dwellers and stuff like that will automatically do 1/3 less damage to you. MR2 alone is worth 30 pts, so at 50 or 55 hes a bargain.

[nicreap]

I don't currently own empire, but am interested in starting an empire army.  In a 3K game, do you think using a double griffon formation would be useful?  As in a halberd in griffon and a greatsword in griffon formation?  or do you think having two such blocks of infantry would impair the functioning of an empire army? 

[emcdunna]

you can do double griffin at 2500+ points, BUT you wont have much cavalry. Mainly you'll have units like 5 knights vanilla, 3 demigryphs vanilla, or 5 pistoliers but not huge ICK or reiksguard units (too many points).

you have to spend lots of points on characters. the war altar isnt worth it, its cheaper to buy 2 warrior priests.

archers will also remain very important here too.
crown of command in the halberd horde (on your general) would be a good idea.

[nicreap]

So in terms of use the halberdiers and greatswords would be my main combat forces, with the archers used to screen the units and attempt to dictate my opponents movement to delay units and engage on my own terms.  The archers would also be used for clearing enemy chaff.  The detachments from the main units are used for flanks attacks, disrupting ranks, and if necessary more redirecting.  What use would the small cavalry units have?  would they be tasked with trying to maneuver to the rear for a charge or would they have a different role?

[Scalenex]

Since Light and Heavens seem to be lores that pair very nicely with this formation, perhaps putting a Wizard Lord on a Hurricanum or Luminark is a good idea.  Then you don't have to worry about your buff wagon and wizard bunker getting in each other's way and the wizard would have easy line of sight with his elevated position.

[StealthKnightSteg]

Since Light and Heavens seem to be lores that pair very nicely with this formation, perhaps putting a Wizard Lord on a Hurricanum or Luminark is a good idea.  Then you don't have to worry about your buff wagon and wizard bunker getting in each other's way and the wizard would have easy line of sight with his elevated position.

But your wizard lord would also be very vulnerable to warmachine fire killing it pretty easy and getting those points extra in your lord slot would severly hamper your way to a good fitted AL.

As for the "double griffon formation" getting both Halberdiers and Greatswords in horde with their detachments and support by archers would be very unwielding chucking your deployment zone almost full already, you would get in your own way to dictate movement (when using the normal 6x4 table size), and as already mentioned your support units would be very small as you will be low on points to fill those up.
I wouldn't consider it till 4k and up

[emcdunna]

I think the idea of double griffin is you remove the capability for the enemy to avoid your infantry by taking up the width of the table with your men.

you dont take knights, demis, or a steam tank, just the greatsword horde, halberd horde, detachments and so on. Basically all infantry list.

you need at least 2500-3000 pts to do this though.

[StealthKnightSteg]

Problem with that is that you don't have any counters to enemy firepower (by warmachines) and if your infantry (most likely one horde and 1 detachment supporting) gets bogged down you don't have anything to break that status quo, and my experience is that you really want some option left to swing such combats in your favor, and our infantry even with buffs doesn't always cut it in grind battles.

[Joerg Müller]

.

[emcdunna]

yeah, you have to be ready to grind.

basically an empire army with only infantry and artillery is a dwarf list (albeit a cruddy attempt at one) because its just a gunline.

so another note. lately I have had an issue with griffin and it only really comes up when facing dwarfs or woodies:

detachments are useless when attacking!

I do much better with just 2 units of 50 state troops than I do with a griffin formation against my brother's dwarfs. If you have to attack, shooting can really destroy those small detachments and panic them when a horde could whether the punishment, plus there is no combo-charge boost, so on offense detachments lose nearly all their flare.

[Noble Korhedron]

I've been using these types of tactics since the new book. One thing that works well is the use of a big swordsmen bus with BSB and WP (and even a wizard in the second rank if you like) as the parent unit so that it can stay steadfast and not have to worry about the CoC, with a big halbardier detachment (15+, 21 is ideal for 7x3). The archers skirmish ahead of the line so that they can keep detachment safe so that they either charge the parent and get the counter charge or charge the archers so you can get to charge back, possibly even getting a rear & flank combo charge. The habardiers do some decent damage, the swordsmen soak it up and provide ranks. It gives you a big bonus on static CR as the charge bonuses cancel out so you're up by a flank and however many ranks you've got left (as you will undoubtedly be cancelling their rank bonus), and quite possibly an extra banner too. Could be +5 up just on the static CR, so you can afford to lose a few more wounds then your enemy and still win the combat. There's not many units will remain steadfast against a bus of 40. It can also take on superior troops as it will likely keep its steadfast and give you a bit extra punch you need to win the attritional war that follows.

Cheerio,

Ben

Hopefully Ben sees this, but I'll take points from any of you about it; I'm still reading through this thread for only about the second time, so I apologise if this was already answered, but Ben's way of putting his Wizard in the second rank sounds dodgy to me in terms of keeping the Wizard alive.... After all, if he's dead he can't buff anything, can he?!

Further to my earlier version of this post, I was looking at your suggestions for the double-horde tactic sub-type of the Griffon formation, as per this image:

Would you say that Empire spearmen simply aren't worth it in a horde formation, either in this or in the single horde sub-type Griffon formation from earlier....?

Also, regardless of unit type, do you think the double-horde Griffon formation can work with either 40/20 for 30/15 Parent/Detachment units, and whether it's worth using 10 archers per detachment in either of these cases, or do you find you get away with 5? If you find you get away with 5, what opponents do you generally do this against, and under what Comp. restrictions, if any? 

I'VE FINALLY DONE IT, BY SIGMAR!! My first Griffon Formation list!! Please find at the below link, if any of you feel like commenting: 
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=49997.0