Topic: Tactica: Empire All Cavalry [work in progress]

[kobahl]

One of best options cavalry army has against Steadfast is Beast lores Curse of anraheir. Against any core horde of 30+ its deadly. Enemy will do anything to dispel it since the alternative is not moving his main horde or loosing 1/3 of its models.

While granted a great spell it only stops the enemy unit from marching. He can still make a normal move and not take a test. But it will make him think about whether he wants to march or charge.....

[kobahl]

So for those interested posted a Bat rep of my first battle with my all Cav list.....

[Eltrummor]

Sounds great. I'd love to go with one, but my main concern is that our knights are fugly.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

So-  have you tried to incorporate some Outriders or Pistoliers in your lists yet Sammay?     

I saw your comment in LSP's Elector thread, and I am sure you saw my Outriders in the latest TEG....

After I get a little more mileage out of my Outs, I can write up a blurb for your Tactica if you want.

 
HHG

[sammay23]

Blurb would be good.

I'll be honest, with regard to Outriders/Pistoliers, I'm still not seeing it for my army. My experience just keeps reinforcing the importance of the 1+AS, particularly in combination with Heavens. Against any opponent, it's almost always helpful. Against some, like armies with a ton of low S attacks, it is unbalancing. The army is just so durable. I hate to give it up.

b.   Magic can also be helpful here. A comet, or long-range magic missile can help with artillery and shooters. Timewarp can increase your march range to 28”  More on that later…

AFAIK Timewarped cavalry can march 20". There is a hard cap at 10" for movement and you cannot exceed it.

Enemy artillery should be dealt with our artillery. Our artillery is good fire magnet for enemy artillery too which effectively makes our charriots last longer.

I'm pretty sure this has been settled. Timewarp doubles the amount you move, not the M characteristic. That means, if your M is 8", you can move 16" and march 32". You charge at 16" +3d6. If there were a test that relied on your M characteristic, it would still test against 8". 

[Kelhaim von Horst]

I've played against Empire for a long time, but the moment I decided I had to play Empire was when I played against an all-cavalry army, with a few Hellblasters and a Cannon. My WoC were out-gunned (no surprise) and out-maneuvered, meaning I couldn't charge anything.

Horrific in the right hands, I commend this Tactica.

[Milos89]

Hy everyone, i'm coming back to Empire after few years (been playing in 6th, little in 7th, and then moved to VC). 

Sammay23 great text, it motivated me to start knight army

I have some questions regarding this army comp...
I'm thinking about skipping those rare chariots. Will use just one tank, and around 40-50 knights and some outriders/pistoliers.

Do we need chariots? And same about demigryphs, i know they are nice and all, and i will buy some, but can this kind of list work with just knights?

[sammay23]

Hy everyone, i'm coming back to Empire after few years (been playing in 6th, little in 7th, and then moved to VC). 

Sammay23 great text, it motivated me to start knight army

I have some questions regarding this army comp...
I'm thinking about skipping those rare chariots. Will use just one tank, and around 40-50 knights and some outriders/pistoliers.

Do we need chariots? And same about demigryphs, i know they are nice and all, and i will buy some, but can this kind of list work with just knights?

Hi Milos, welcome to the forum!

I don't think you need the chariots at all. I've never really taken them. I'm ambivalent about outriders/pistoliers. I think some folks are really effective with them. I'm not one of them, though

I am of the opinion that DGs and a Stank are really required for an all-cav list to work best. Point for point, they are tougher and have more staying power than knights alone, even IC knights.

That said, I think you can absolutely field an all knight list and still be effective. You will need to think about what objectives each unit has. IC knights are going to be your hammers, while vanilla knights will be re-directors and chaff-clearers. You may want to include a lot of cheap captains in your knight units to increase their hitting power. What you'll note is that you're paying more points for the same effectiveness as DGs. There's no way around it... our current book really pushes the DGs.

If you want to be as competetive as possible, then you should take DGs. If that's not your primary concern, I think you can definitely field an effective list with knight busses with captains and priests. Hatred definitely makes a difference. Luthor Huss is a great assett in an army with lots of knights.

[Milos89]

Back in 6th/7th i didn't leave house without 2 units of pistolires

Great for chariots, I'm trying to avoid that (same in my VC), maybe at some point, but not for casual games.
I will sure try with and without DGs and see what works best for me.

[Milos89]

Couple a days ago, I played first game with all cavalry Empire.

I was more than surprised how good it performed. 2 units of 5 knights (3 wide formations) manage to kill 40 ghouls, in several rounds of combat, and i have failed a lots of fear tests.
Comet killed 11 of knights (my comet, and my knights) with S8 hits... Now when I think little about army, maybe shadow lore would be better choice, from heavens i used only comet, one or two re-rolls of 1s in all turns that i have had my unit buffed. -1 to hit is nice, but still think shadow would be better...

I didn't have a single unit with shooting except tank. Regarding pistoliers/outriders... well now I see how big of a deal 1+ is so probably I wont take any soon.

[sammay23]

Couple a days ago, I played first game with all cavalry Empire.

I was more than surprised how good it performed. 2 units of 5 knights (3 wide formations) manage to kill 40 ghouls, in several rounds of combat, and i have failed a lots of fear tests.
Comet killed 11 of knights (my comet, and my knights) with S8 hits... Now when I think little about army, maybe shadow lore would be better choice, from heavens i used only comet, one or two re-rolls of 1s in all turns that i have had my unit buffed. -1 to hit is nice, but still think shadow would be better...

I didn't have a single unit with shooting except tank. Regarding pistoliers/outriders... well now I see how big of a deal 1+ is so probably I wont take any soon.

Remember also that it takes a LOT of practice to get proficienty with an all-cav army. Getting hit by your own comet is a great example - movement can be very tricky with all-cav, and you want to be getting in lots of practice just getting from point A to point B.

I'd suggest that you stick with Heavens for 3 games, at least, before switching to shadow. I agree that it's a great lore, but it does require your lvl4 to be closer to enemies, which increases the chances of getting him killed.

[Milos89]

I had problem regarding characters, I was playing VC before, and now my characters are just bad compared to VC... But being able to flee from charge is nice for a change

I'm going on tournament on Saturday to test this army some more

[sammay23]

Use the Speculum-equipped captasus to help with tough enemy lords.

I use:

Captain on Pegasus, Full Plate, VHS, Luckstone, Enchanted Shield (I think).

[Milos89]

Soooo...

After 5 games with cavalry list on tournament (don't ask me how I was ranked  ), I have several conclusions.

Cavalry is extremely strong. People poop their pants when they see that much 1+ all across the table 
In one of the games 5 knights survived 40 s4 arrows, and then several rounds of combat with wood elf archers.

Being able to move fast is great option, I was able to start from left flank, and move to other side of the board quickly, especially with 2 captasus, and WL on pegasus. On the other hand, I wasnt able to win much combats. Skaven was mission impossible for my list. 4 big units, bell, abomination... And I have just one cannon on tank...

Lack of shooting can be problem sometimes, outriders could be nice addition, but now i get why sammay23 emphasizes the importance of 1+ save.

Next important thing is BSB... We can't do anything without it. In one game most of my army was fleeing on turn one, because I wasn't able to re-roll that 5-6 on Ld test. I'm was playing VC before this (and this was my first 5 games with cavalry empire), so I'm not that used to being able to flee and all that Ld based stuff

This was my list

Arch Lector - Talisman of Preservation, Dragonhelm, General, Barding, Heavy Amour, Shield: 187
Wizard Lord - lvl4 (Heavens) Pegasus, Talisman of Protection, Dispel Scroll: 285
Warrior Priest - Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Barding: 88
Captain of the Empire - Helm of the Skavenslayer, Dawn Stone, Potion of Foolhardiness, Lance, Full Plate Armor, Shield, Pegasus: 165
Charmed Shield, Talisman of Endurance, Great weapon, Full Plate Armor, Pegasus: 152
12 Knights of the Inner Circle - FCG, The Steel Standard, Lance: 365
12 Reiksguard Knights - FCG, Standard of Discipline: 369
2x5 Knightly Orders - Musician, Lance: 120
2x5 Reiksguard Knights - Musician: 145
Steam Tank: 250

Unfortunately I don't own any demigrif models, that is why I didn't put them in list. And keep in mind this is fun based list, it was far from idea to win a tournament with this
Everything that I thought it will perform good - didn't. WPs in cavalry are great, but I would prefer Grand master over AL, maybe just one little WP without any items (like this one I was using), to give knights hatred and maybe some buffs.
One other thing... I had 2x12 units of knights. Now when I think of it, it would be better to have one 15-20 man strong, and instead of other one, to take BSB/grand master/more small units. I had 2 big-ish units, that couldn't do anything on their own. And that slowed me down big time. If opponent block one of my units, other probably doesn't stand a chance on its own (not counting stank for supporting it). Maybe I'm just not used to win combats with units, but with characters (yea... Vampires are kinda cool... I guess... whatever...)

Big mistake for me was that i didn't have courage to multi-charge everything. Like for example, flank charge with stank in black orcs and I didn't charge them in front with 12 IC knights... Small 5-man units of knights almost never charged anything in flank when big unit was fighting. But I know that is because with VC i don't usually do that. Even front charge with 2x5 knights is great, especially vs some archers or something squishy... Now I'm pissed that WE has beaten me...

Lore of heavens - not for me anymore.
I am little disappointed in this lore. That re-roll of 1s is nice, but it is something that i could live without. Only one comet fell in 5 games (I had spell in every game) and one chain lightning. Debuffing opponent would be much better in my opinion (-3 ld to win that all important charge). Only spell that I was happy with is re-roll of 6s for opponent.  He was vampire with some KB, and that works great vs him... I feel that this lore is more for gunline armies... Next time I will go back to using lore of fire, or maybe shadow to try that one out.


All in all, it is a great army, fun to paly, and that look on opponents face when he can't flee from your charge range on turn one is priceless

Thanks to sammay23, for encouraging me to try this kind of army 

[sammay23]

Good for you for playing so many games with the list. A few notes:

1) I don't think the cav list can work without Demigryphs. They're strong where other units are weak. They can grind very effectively, and against opponents like Skaven, they are priceless.

2) Because you had no DGs, you ended up with much bigger units of knights than I like. I prefer many units over large units, which allows you to swarm your opponents.

3) If you're havinga  problem with leadership, and losing combats by 1-2, I'd suggest including Luthor Huss in your list. His stubborn prayer helps a lot, and he is a good answer to killy lords with his onetime buff.

4) I'd be interested to hear how other lores play out for you. Also, why the wizard on a pegaus instead of a horse? Did you find the mobility helpful?

[Milos89]

Demigryphs are gonna have to wait some time... New Xbox is coming soon

We had ETC restrictions for tournament, so only 3 units of knightly orders, and 3 of Reiksguard, no special characters, crown of comand or tank... and so on... That is why i went with 2 big units, instead of something like, 8 smaller.

I didn't have problem with loosing combat, but with panic. But yea, I'm getting lutor in few days.

Wizard lord on pegasus is great. In game vs orcs, I was able to deploy in far corner of the table, out of range of his doom divers and rock lobers, then after captasus killed machines, I was able to quickly get back into game, and in range of all my units, and do absolutely nothing with lore of heavens. Other good thing is that he can pose threat to enemy single wizards (killed some skaven character that tried to nuke me with bomb or something like that). I would like to try him out with VHS, and sword of antiheroes or some weird stuff like that,VHS + sword of bloodshed + Savage Beasts of Horros...
When I try some of that, will let you know

[Von Manson]

Hello living tacticia.

I was interested to hear people's opinions on how this has changed since dark elves and their fast cav spam. You are certainly not going to win the positioning war there.

Also I wanted to put forward how I protect my wizard in my all cav list, and it is through the speculum. Wizard goes in your biggest combat block speculum, and I run fencers blades for added goodness. He challenges every turn and this is what keeps him alive, he is either in a challenge or bumping important models out of combat. I run life so I can shoot for regen or the ward save to keep the unit alive and I don't often lose him. Dwellers can be a big help in the cav list as well as it drops units that could have caused problems.

[Wanderlustkinggggg]

Can't comment on the Delves myself as I'm yet to play them but I'm also planning on an all cav list (it's in parade now) so interested in this conversation and ongoing cav tactics.

So I'm toying with a cav list, I've got a few versions in my thread in the army list section. But I'm tempted with the idea of a cavalry hammer. I'm still thinking my main army would be MSU and nilla knights but a big block of 21 IC with 5 characters in it seems to pack a helluva punch on paper.

I was running through some mathhammer around 4am last night with the idea of the following running into various deathstars.

21 Inner Circle - Full Command, TGM with Ogre Blade, Captain with Lance, WP with Sword of Antiheroes, Mage with potion of strength, 2nd nilla mage.

 banner wise it has Captain BSB has rampagers and the unit has swiftmovement, so mv8 re-roll charge distance. The main idea here is to get off a combo with light magic, there are three spells here together that combined make for a serious fun unit. Pha's Protection for -1 to hit them, Speed of Light for WS and I10 and Timewarp for ASF and +1 attack. Technically it should only take around 6 PD to get this combo off (3d for timewar, 2 for speed, 1 for pha's). combined with a warrior priest's Hammer of Sigmar or Shield of Faith and the unit really is tanky!

So with the full magical combo off the unit would be ASF WS10, St4/6, t3, I10, A2, 1+/5++ AS. re-roll to hit (either hatred for I10 & ASF) re-roll to wound. So just at straight hitting, a non-buffed unit would kill 9 Seaguard on the charge, with the combo here it would be close to around 16 kills. Now obviously I'm a little ahead in thinking I'll get the entire combo off every time (or anytime considering it requires 3 spells, 2 prayers).

But am I being silly in thinking I could make a hammer knight unit or should I just go with the MSU? I'm trying to think of good ways to destroy death stars, here are two examples of the type I'd run into:

60 Sea Guard -various heroes in here, such as anointed so unit has 6+ ward and also his Lv4 so every spell cast increases the units ward by +1 to 3++ in total with a BSB carrying the Razor Standard. So the idea is to steadfast and being horded spear elves he has 5 ranks attacking things into submission while being hopefully 4-5+ ward to tank enemy units.

18 Ironguts, + BSB, Firebelly, Slaughtermaster, Tyrant. This is my own deathstar for my ogre list. Wth the Maw Banner it's basically immune to magic and dishes out 6 str4 attacks, 4ws5str7 5ws6str7 and horded there are 14 ironguts in the 1st to 3rd ranks so 42 str6 attacks. A lot of nasty punch. IIRC correctly I kill 7-8 ogres on the charge so only 10-11 Ironguts (30-33 attacks back instead of 42), but against both stars I lack the ranks to negate steadfast and when it comes to the 2nd and 3rd rounds I lose.

Obviously flank charging gets my some more CR and more kills (I think i figured if Icharged in with my horded unit of 25 (21 IC plus characters) 6 nilla in one flank and 3 DG in the other I'll kill around 22 elves or 9-10 Ogres on the charge which frankly is impressive but still not enough to break steadfast. Any thoughts here or will taking unis like this be a grind everytime and I should just hope to do as much damage on teh charge before I get desaddled.