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Author Topic: Tips on beating Lizzards  (Read 6852 times)

Offline Brontes

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Tips on beating Lizzards
« on: August 23, 2014, 12:46:15 PM »
Mine friend bought himself a new Dino Babies army, so i played 3 games and I won 3 of them. Now I just wanted some tips from you guys. So I used Life as magic (I usualy take Light) but it didnt work out for me. What is a good lore against Lizards or should I stick with light. He uses a Stegadon but I killed him 2 times with mine cannons before he could do anything. He used mainly 20 Temple Guard, aroud 40 Saurus, Stegadon and two Skink priests. I used 3 Chickens, 8 ICK, WP(Charmed Shield and Shrieking Blade), 2 Cannons, Archers/Crossbow and a mage. We played 500, 750, 100 and 1200 points. The Temple Guard are really hard and they killed in the 1200 game mine gryphons. So any tips on those dinos? And what do you think I need to add in mine army? Any further tips are always welcome. Thanks in advance!

Offline TastyBagel

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2014, 12:10:43 AM »
Yow, 100+ views and no posts?

Lizards can be a very hard army to play against. They are like Empire in that they are very flexible. Their Cold-Blooded rule is very solid, so it's hard to Panic them off the field. In our match up, in broadest general terms, their Magic (assuming they have a Slaan) is better than ours, though we have better artillery pieces.

A player that plays both armies did a nice write up here:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=44751.0

Lore of Shadow is a great equalizer lore for us. Slow down the Movement on the Cold Ones; nerf the Strength or Toughness of a block of lizards so our State Troops have a chance in combat... It's a great lore. Against lizard blocks, Pit of Shades can amazing for us, given their low Initiative.

If he fields skinks, your best bet is adding magic missiles to take care of them, ala Lore of Fire. With Poisoned Attacks, they can be bad news for War Machines, so be careful...

If he doesn't field skinks, adding a Hellblaster (and basically mandatory Engineer babysitter) could be a solid idea. It should negate most of the armor save for the big saurus blocks, and turn a big portion of the field into somewhere no lizardman wants to be.

Hope this helps a bit!


Offline Vietnow

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2014, 04:39:43 AM »
Units of 5 vanilla knights can be very useful against skin spam.  The 1+ save combined with their pathetic combat potential is very nice.  5 knights can easily route skink skirms.  Even ranked skinks will struggle to wound, and even horses wound on a 3+.

These screening knights are great, but their solo scar vets and old bloods destroy anything with armor.  s7 with at least 4 attacks.  1+ saves with either dawnstone or a 4++, cause fear, cold blooded means they can tarpit many units.  They can also kill steamtanks.  Be very wary of these guys.  Demi's and IC knights on the charge are you best bet.  If you can't break them on the charge.... well good luck getting through the T5 1+  save. 

These knights should also be used to screen your warmachines form poison shots.  Once they get close, charge them outta the way.  Even light magic missiles kill skinks, T2 is bad.  Don't let these guys kill your warmachines, this is their only real role vs The Empire.

Chameleons are WORSE than skinks.  They're at a -2 to hit with missile fire, so charge them, or magic missile them.  They are scouts.  I highly suggest denying them deployment on your flank, and placing your vanilla knights between warmachines and likely chameleon deployments.

Salamanders will deplete any infantry block/horde quite horribly.  These things need to be shot, or engaged by a capatus ASAP.  They can't form ranks, so do some wounds on the charge, and send them packing.  If possible target the skink handlers, they are easier to hit and wound.

Saurus are ok, but still WS3, I1.  You have several options.  Out buff them, or out debuff them.  Lore of light will see halbs making mincemeat of regular saurus.  Purple sun or Pit of shades ends them, heroes included.  Lore of shadow is classy b/c you can take both of their good stats, T4/S4 down.  Miasma can do the same with their already poor weapon skill.

Stegadons are big, but only do damage through impact hits and stomps.  Deny these with knights.  They have few attacks, but are stubborn.  Chickens can topple them.  DO NOT let them charge an infantry block, esp one which is already in combat.   Oh yea, shoot cannons at them.

Terradons can kill small chaff units, even skirmishers very easily, by dropping rocks. D3 auto hits per rider if they fly over.  They can only do it once, but it hurts.

If you're tailoring a list,  forbidden rodding a purple sun through his TG unit may be an autowin for you.  I'm becoming less and less of a  halb  horde fan as of late. (unless I'm running lore of light)  Your 1+ saves can save you a lot of grief.  Have patience.  A TG unit with a slaan looks VERY juicy, but its equally as hard to remove via combat.  Stubborn, cold blooded, with the general and bsb slaan in the 2A S5 unit is rough.  Esp if he plays keep away with this unit.  Focus on where you can get easy points, LM give them up all over.

Offline Brontes

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2014, 12:31:48 PM »
Thanks for the reply guys! Really usefull info. This week I will play against him and will use the tips you guys give.

So impact hits dont count on cavalry or am I wrong?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 02:57:22 PM by Brontes »

Offline TastyBagel

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2014, 11:01:37 PM »
So impact hits dont count on cavalry or am I wrong?

You are incorrect. Impact hits will definitely hit cavalry. If a unit which causes impact his (like a chariot, or Ogres) complete a charge, the unit being charged will take those impact hits regardless of how that unit is classified.

I think you are muddling Impact hits with Stomp/Thunderstomp, which does care about unit types. A good refresher guide for stomps (if you want it) can be found here:
http://www.youmagnificentbastards.com/2011/09/rule-of-day-stomp-thunderstomp.html
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 11:04:22 PM by TastyBagel »

Offline Brontes

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 06:37:42 PM »
Thanks a lot! I was confusing it with stomp.

Offline Brontes

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2014, 03:30:41 PM »
Last game his Stegadon killed mine 2 cannons with his blowpipes. He rolled a few sixes and killed the crew instantly. So, I wonderd if I needed to do a armor save or not? Also does the Skinks get a -1 on his BS because the Stegadon moved or marched? Also, does the Skinks get a -1 on there BS because the shot long range?

Thanks in advance!

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2014, 03:50:50 PM »
I think you are muddling Impact hits with Stomp/Thunderstomp, which does care about unit types. A good refresher guide for stomps (if you want it) can be found here:
http://www.youmagnificentbastards.com/2011/09/rule-of-day-stomp-thunderstomp.html

Note that the refresher guide needs a small refresher.

BRB Official Update Version 1.8, p. 8:
Q: Do Stomp or Thunderstomp hits benefit from any other special rules, equipment or magic items of the model that inflicts the hits? (p76)
A: No.


Note also that the FAQ only applies to how the attacks are distributed. For all other purposes (noticeably combat resolution), they are in fact CC attacks.

BRB Official Update Version 1.8, p. 7:
Q: Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks? (p42)
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed as a shooting attack.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 12:13:33 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline carmaul

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2014, 04:43:04 PM »
Last game his Stegadon killed mine 2 cannons with his blowpipes. He rolled a few sixes and killed the crew instantly. So, I wonderd if I needed to do a armor save or not? Also does the Skinks get a -1 on his BS because the Stegadon moved or marched? Also, does the Skinks get a -1 on there BS because the shot long range?

Thanks in advance!

Poison is the bane of our warmachines because a few lucky sixes bypass the T7 and we have no armor save.  (Our cannons do not have armor, they have T7 to show how tough they are).

The Skinks should suffer -1 for moving and -1 for long range. (FvS can verify this since he is a walking rulebook).

The Skinks should have a very low range on the blowpipes (8" I think).

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2014, 05:41:48 PM »
On an (Ancient) Stegadon, the Skinks are equipped with Javelins (Range 12"; S as User, Poisoned attacks). These  Javelins have also the Quick to Fire rule  and do not suffer -1 for moving and shooting. They do, however, suffer -1 for Long Range.
Note that, in addition, the Stegadon has a poisonous Giant Bow (Range 36") and the Ancient Stegadon poisonous Giant Blowpipes (range 18").
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Offline Brontes

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2014, 06:40:54 PM »
Thanks, I understand now. Is it true that he can shoot the canon if there is another unit (like halberds) staying in front of the canon?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 07:09:21 PM by Brontes »

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2014, 12:30:43 AM »
In this edition, you can shoot at anything you can see.

BRB p. 10:
Quote
Line of sight literally represents your warriors' view of the enemy — they must be able to see their foe through, under or over the battlefield terrain, and other models (friendly or enemy).
For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace an unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body (i.e. the head, torso, arms or legs) of the target.

Sometimes, all that will be visible of a model is a weapon, banner or other ornament he is carrying. In these cases, the model is not visible. Similarly, we ignore wings and tails, even though they are technically part of a model's body. These rules are intended to ensure that models don't get penalised for having impressive banners, swords, and so on.


So, anyone can shoot through other units (friend or foe), provided they can see an arm or a foot of the enemy. It is a silly rule.  Mora lex, sed lex.  

For BS-based weapons, this will usually provide hard cover for the target. That is not the case for cannon. However, BRB p 112 specifies: "Note that you are not allowed to make a cannon shot in such a way that it has a chance of hitting a friendly unit or an enemy unit that is engaged in close combat." Basically, this means that there may be no friendly units or units in combat 2" behind your target point for the bounce.
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Offline Brontes

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2014, 08:43:08 AM »
So if I get it correctly:

If he wants to shoot my canon, with a group of halberds in front of the canon, he gets a -1 on his BS because its a the halberds are a hard cover. Also if it is a long distance shot he gets another -1 on his BS? He cant see the canon (no arms no foot), but he told me because he is a large target (the Skinks on top of the Stegadon) sees the canon he can still shoot the canon.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2014, 09:23:29 AM »
As said, if he can draw line of sight to the target, he can shoot at it. A higher vantage point will facilitate that, but he must be able to draw an unobscured line to (any part of) the cannon chassis. If he cannot, he cannot shoot either.
Note that the Large Target special rule just means that such models cannot themselves claim cover modifiers for obstacles (so, an enemy shooting at them will suffer no additional negative cover modifiers from obstacles). It does not allow Large Targets to shoot at things you cannot draw an unobscured LoS too.

In case of doubt, one can always use a laser pointer.

The modifiers to BS shooting are explained on BRB p. 40 & 41. Main points for the current case:

Quote
If the majority of the models in the target unit (or, when firing against a single model, more than half of the target model) is obscured from the shooting model's view by other models (friend or enemy) or by terrain then an additional To Hit modifier is applied.

Quote
Hard cover represents cover of a more durable kind, like that offered by stone walls, boulders, buildings and suchlike. We also count intervening units as hard cover (if they obscure the line of sight to the majority of the target, of course) as their presence will play havoc with the shooters' accuracy. If the majority of a unit is obscured by such 'hard' terrain, it is said to be Hard cover. Hard cover inflicts a -2 shooting modifier. Note that the To Hit penalties for hard and soft cover do not stack — in a situation where a target would benefit from both soft and hard cover, simply apply a -2 shooting modifier for cover.

So, if the majority of your cannon was obscured by the halberdiers, the Javelins would receive -2 for hard cover, and another -1 for long range.
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Offline Brontes

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2014, 09:34:04 AM »
Thanks a lot Fidelis! He didnt use his Javelins but he did use blowpipe that doesnt matter right?

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2014, 09:48:12 AM »
Normal Skinks can have blowpipes (who are not Quick to Fire, and would suffer -1 for moving and shooting). However, the Skinks on the Stegadons are equipped with javelins, not blowpipes. However, on an Ancient Stegadon, up to two Skink Crew may each fire a single Giant Blowpipe (range 18"; Multiple Shots 2D6, Poisoned attacks) instead of firing their javelins. The others can only use their javelins.

Note also that you cannot use the BS of a character that has joined the Stegadon for firing the howdah weapons.
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Offline Brontes

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2014, 09:55:41 AM »
Aye, I meant Acient Stegadon  :blush: Still, thanks a lot for clarification the rules.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2014, 09:57:08 AM »
We serve to please and please to serve.  :icon_wink: :icon_wink:
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Offline Brontes

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2014, 10:15:12 AM »
Another question I was not sure about. The BRB tells that a pursue a fleeing unit you roll 2D6 but is it legal to use Swiftstride?

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2014, 10:17:43 AM »
BRB p. 76: When fleeing and pursuing, units entirely made of models with the Swiftstride special rule roll 3D6 and discard the lowest result.
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Offline Brontes

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2014, 10:28:01 AM »
Your the best, thanks again Fidelis!

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2014, 12:10:43 PM »
Given the possible -3 modifier (or even -4 for the Giant Blowpipe, if the Stegadon moved),  this may interest you as well.

BRB p. 73
Note that if a Poisoned shooting attack needs to roll a 7 or more to hit, or hits automatically, then the Poisoned attacks rule does not come into play.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
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Offline Brontes

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Re: Tips on beating Lizzards
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2014, 12:27:57 PM »
Oh, in that cause at least 1 cannon should have survived. Good to know!