Topic: Hipster Empire

[Bugenhagen]

Hello everyone,

this might be a weird request, but I need your help in building an unusual army. I'm not very proficient in playing Warhammer because I've always been more of a painter/converter. When I play, I play in a very uncompetitive community, so no WAAC or cookie cutter builds.

The Empire has always been tempting and now the time has come to start building my force. After reading some general guidelines, however, it turns out that pretty much all the units I want to include are considered bad and all the units I definitely won't include are considered necessary in order to perform well.

What I would use : Handgunners, Halbediers, Swordsmen, Greatswords, (Reiksguard-)Knights, Mortars, Outriders, Militia, Huntsmen,

What I would never use: Wizards, Demigryph Knights, Hurricanum/Luminarium, War Altar, Steam Tank

Yes, I'm serious - how am I gonna make this work? Not having wizards leaves me vulnerable to enemy magic, so I guess I need some sort of magic resistance (Witch hunters?) to compensate for that. Cannons are possible, although I'd prefer mortars. I've also read the discussion about handgunners, but I'm gonna use them regardless because they are effin' cool.

Any advice would be appreciated ("Don't do it" doesn't count )

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

It is a daunting task. Just to point out one thing: buffs, hexes and other spells that do not cause wounds can be as powerful as spells that do cause wounds, but MR only works against the latter.

[zifnab0]

Take a level 4, give him a scroll and drop him in a unit of archers.  Don't cast anything, just use the passive +4 magic defense.

[TastyBagel]

I cringed at the thread name, but I've been trying to do some similar things recently (I've been trying Empire MSU... Running all sorts of weird little units) To be brief: it's an uphill battle. I played a goofy fluffy list last night that did surprisingly well for a while. I'll try and get a more detailed post here tonight or tomorrow.

It's rough goings. But the games have been so much more dynamic and fun to play than the cookie cutter lists.

[Vauln]

First thing I would like to do is look at the good aspects here.

I love Swordsmen, they are the elite soldiers of the Empire, it is really to bad they were nerfed in 8th. I still use them and will continue too do so. Most will tell you to take Halberdiers.
 
If you are to take Halberdiers, a horde of 40 is popular, give them a Warrior Priest or Arch Lecher and a Captain BSB. Kit you BSB defensively. Adding a witch Hunter to the unit will help with Magic Defense. Maybe just give the Witch Hunter a Brace of Pistols, if it is not against your restrictions you could give him the Ruby Ring (just pretend he is throwing torches or Molotoves at the enemy). Concerning detachments, I sometimes use small units of Militia as chaff to my parent unit, they work okay and I like the models. Most will tell you to go with archers, this is very good advice and tactically sound.

Handgunners really are not as effective as they used to be, that is fine because they are still viable if used correctly. I have a unit of 20 (10x2) with Banner, Musician, and Marksman with Repeater Handgun. This unit does not get much use anymore but it does have its place (mainly in my heart).   

The next thing to look at is the Reiksguard, these are great knights, nothing wrong with them. I would look at this unit as your hammer. Take enough of them that they can withstand some shooting; BS, war machine, and magic. I would go for 15 (5x3) or 18 (6x3).

ICK are great too, I would go with 14 and a Grandmaster (General). You could also put your BSB and/or Warrior Priest here.

I have never had any luck with Greatswords, though I do like them.

Now lets consider Huntsmen, I like the unit, tactically they can be a very good choice. I think 10-12 placed in the right location can be used a harriers anti chaff (unfortunately not all that effectively) and maybe war machine hunters. They are really just a bout area denial, shutting down Vanguard.

Outriders only if you have room.

I have never been a fan of Mortars, I usually run a pair of Cannon very effectively.

Now lets look at the bad.

You have no Magic defense, this is really bad. If you choose to go this rout spread Magic Resistance through as many units as possible, Mainly your Infantry Block and ICK.

Demigryphs are very good, as you go not have any Monstrous Calvary you might consider a Captain on Pegasus (or two). They can be used in various ways and are a mainstay for many Generals. 

To me Wagons are kinda meh, take 'em or leave 'em.

The real hurt is no STank, it is such a valuable unit. Ouch!

Well, hope some of this helps. Have fun!

[emcdunna]

you are not alone in your desire to play hipster empire

the thing is, it does truly suck, add to that the fact that you are inexperienced... you probably wont have much fun playing.

empire is NOT flexible, you are seriously handicapped building the list the way you describe however its not illegal (like people who would want to use an all minotaur army or something).


So if you do it, do it, but it is gonna be REALLY hard to do. You are gonna need to take a lot of artillery and lots of mobile killers to really have a chance to win. You may want to try to kill the enemy wizard as soon as you can.

if you are willing to TRY the weird fantasy type stuff, then you will see visible increase in army efficiency, but if not, just get good at the game. you can still win.

[Grendel083]

empire is NOT flexible

I've never heard anyone say that about Empire, the most flexible of armies, before 

They're most certainly not a mono-build force. Care to go into more detail as to why you feel they're not flexible?

[Vauln]

Right, they are the most balanced, flexible army available. 

[TastyBagel]

Out of curiosity, at what points level were you thinking of playing? The smaller games you play, the better off you may be...

In thinking about your aim/restrictions over the afternoon, yeah, it's a big uphill battle in front of you. Some armies can ignore magic entirely, but those have hard-hitting elite warriors, monsters... The game has an entire phase devoted to magic - even Dwarves (who shy away form magic) have a host of ways to address their shortcoming in that regard. So trying to build something competitive while willfully ignoring 1/4 of the phases of the game is a tall order.

My opponent last night brought a cool Vampire Counts list, with some nice synergies and two Mortis engines. I brought a slew of terrible stuff, including Handgunners, two units of Crossbowmen, 15 Militia, 20 Swordsmen, two units of 15 Greatswords, two units of Pistoliers, Huntsmen.... on your "would never use" list, the only thing I violated was the Wizard.

It was a hard-fought game. And despite running utter junk and rolling terribly, and picking a useless Lore for the wizard (picked metal to try it out since nothing had a 1+ AS for once)... we were very close most of the game (I did end up losing). Still, it was a fun and dynamic game.

In your case, I'd suggest visiting Nuln, and acquainting yourself with some of the Empire's black powder engineers there.... You need something to kill stuff, and that will not be unbuffed state troopers nor state shooters. Hellblaster Volley Guns could do some damage, provided you bring Engineers to babysit them. Your games will always be close.. and honestly, you probably won't win much going down this path. if you're fine with more casual games, then running the weird stuff can be a lot of fun.

Figured it's best to stop here, as i am definitely rambling. Anyways, best of luck to you!

[emcdunna]

Are you kidding me? have you ever played against another army book? (besides beastmen, tomb kings, or bretonnia?) because we are NOT flexible. AT ALL.

I am not saying we are mono build but we are NOT as flexible as our unit selection makes us out to be. In truth, over half of the choices in the book may as well be deleted from a competitive standpoint, or even a SANE standpoint. Its rediculous, some of the rules for what they cost.... compared to other choices....

we suck. everyone thinks "Oh empire, they are the jack of all trades army!" NO. STOP. false. read tactics articles, play games. we are inflexible.

[Grendel083]

we suck. everyone thinks "Oh empire, they are the jack of all trades army!" NO. STOP. false. read tactics articles, play games. we are inflexible.

Don't think I've ever disagreed more with a post.

All mounted forces? Yes, Empire has some great Heavy Cav, with light Cav support.
Gunlines? Easy.
Infantry Hordes? Plenty of foot-sloggers to choose from, each with their own benefits.
Magic heavy? We have cheap wizards with access to multiple lores.
Empire can even happy combine a couple of the above, and still be very effective.
We can buff our troops better than any other race, making up for any shortfalls that our cheap numbers don't cover.

If you're struggling with your force, maybe post what you're using and how you're using it, and the chaps here can help point you in the right direction. Because honestly something is wrong if you're saying "they suck" and "are inflexible".

[emcdunna]

HAHAHA OMG you are hilarious!

Yes we CAN do that, sure, we physically possibly can. But does it work? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you cant play dwarves as empire (gunlines), you cant play tomb kings as empire (magic heavy), you admitedly can play cav heavy but thats the ONLY build really.

you cannot play fair balanced armies with these different forces.

go try and take a unit of 50 militia, it doesnt work. Try and use detachments! it doesnt work.


you are hilarious you know that? empire is SOOOOO inflexible.

i feel like you are trying to tell me that you could do an all cav tomb kings army or all cav orcs and goblins army. Technically yes they HAVE cav, but does it work for how many points it costs? is it effective? NO NO NO.

empire sucks. i am sad.

[TastyBagel]

Emcdunna, please stop hijacking every thread you post in with this stuff. Does our army have its shortcomings? Ha. Absolutely. But ultra competitive isn't the only way to play.

[Grendel083]

HAHAHA OMG you are hilarious!

I aim to please 

empire sucks. i am sad.

In your previous posts throughout the site, you've blasted every unit in the book, every ability, buff, combo etc... Doom, gloom, negitive, negitive, negitive...
The only positive thing you've ever posted is a love for High Elves!

You're correct in that Empire is not the easiest army to play. It's not easy mode like the Elves.
But the army does not suck, and it is not very bottom tier that you suggest. Judging by your comments, I fear the problem isn't the army book, but the General behind it.

50 Militia can work. Stick a Priest in there, and Hurricanum behind and a Wizard of your choice near by. Go for Lore of Light and get Speed of Light off, and you've got over 30 attacks hitting on 2+ re-rollable, and denying even an Elf their beloved re-roll. I've had smaller units go through the Elite of other armies with the right buff combo, and if you plan properly it's not that hard to pull off. S5 T4 Halberdies thanks to Beasts (Signiture, so that spell is guarenteed) is very hard hitting. As are Greatswords that don't strike last.
Detachments work, and can work extreamly well. IF you know how to use them.

It honestly sounds like you're really struggling to use an Empire force, based on your negitive outlook of the book.
Why not post up sort of list you normally use and a general idea of your tactics and get a few pointers from the people around here who arn't loosing every game with their terrible terrible army book. Assuming your cup isn't already full.

[zifnab0]

empire sucks. i am sad.

Seriously dude.

[emcdunna]

haha a link to the high elf page. lol.

[PeytonS]

Judging by your comments, I fear the problem isn't the army book, but the General behind it.

Amen. 

[emcdunna]

I am not the only empire general who is frustrated.

plenty of us are frustrated.

[PeytonS]

Does flooding the forum with post after post of “Empire sucks, nothing in the army works, I hate it, we should just play high elves” make you feel better or change anything?

[emcdunna]

It invited discussion.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The Empire AB lacks internal and external balance - nothing really new there. Unfortunately, that means that we are obliged to adhere to certain builds, at least, if the average general wants a reasonable chance to win. That said, good generals with sub-par lists will have a reasonable chance to win against lesser generals with lists made of cheese.

[PeytonS]

@FVS:  Spot on.  The book does make one style of empire list more powerful (or at least easier to play) than others, but you are by no means doomed to a loss if you include units that aren't demis, artillery and knights.  Despite some of our units being overpriced they can still be very effective and used in competetive play.  Of course if you are playing competetively it helps to be a good player.

[TastyBagel]

I got in an unexpected game in last night, using some of the units the OP wanted to include. I had to improvise a 1k list with the models I brought for 2k (better than the other way around I guess...):


Wizard Level 4 - Light
Captain - BSB, full Plate, Enchanted Shield, Ruby Ring
10 Crossbows
10 Crossbows
10 Swordsmen
5 Pistoliers - musician
5 Pistoliers - musician
10 Greatswords - musician
10 Huntsmen

He ran a High Elf list with:

Character with Talisman of Preservation  (General, with Swordmasters)
Character on Griffon
~16 Archers
5 Reavers (bows)
~15 Sea Guard
~15 Swordmasters
Great Eagle

We ran out of time, and at that point it was basically a draw for points (close enough; good game). My list are typically attempts as MSU Empire, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, but I enjoy it as it's really challenging. This list is basically most of my chaff and shooting. (The rest of the list has a Captain on a Pegasus, level 1, 10 Militia, 25 Halberds, Cannon, 5 more Greatswords and 2 units of 3 Demis.)

Crossbows - our BS skill is low.. so I think two units supporting one another is pretty mandatory. The more shots you have, the more hit. Statistically. My dice don't always agree.. I deploy these as mid-to-late drops, dropping them only where they can focus fire on a unit, or can clear out a lot of chaff. This game, they and a unit of Pistoliers held down a flank. Handgunners would be used the same.

Swordsmen - I was going to run these as diverters/chaff/anti-chaff, but they ended up being a wizard bunker. Did alright.

Pistoliers - I like having two units, as they are a fun harassing unit, and I usually goof it and sacrifice one for no reason. Fun, but difficult to play well due to their short range.

Greatswords - I've used both 10 and 15 man units. The 10-men is a nice pin due to Stubborn. The 15-man is more killy, as more survive to attack back. the 15 costs the same as a Demi, so when writing a really soft list, I switch out the Demis for 15-man Greatsword units.

Huntsmen - I'm still undecided about these guys. I love Scouting, but I wish they did stuff. Some players get freaked out by having guys show up as Scouts, but most experienced players, or players that know statistics will not care, as these guys struggle to hit and to wound anything. I'll keep them in for a few more games before I drop them.

So yeah, a little more feedback on some of the units you were considering OP.

[Xathrodox86]

While Ulthuan.net is a very nice place (I know, I've played HElves for a couple of years in my yout. Don't ask...) you don't really need to go there. Empire is IMO the most flexible army out there. Sure, we don't have the punch or staying power of other factions, but we still can kick some serious ass. Our newest rulebook gave us some sweet deals, and while it'd be nice to have some better infantry (I'm looking at you flagellants), most of our forces are no slouches!

You don't want to use wizards? No problem. Take preists. Lots of priests. Add a war altar with Arch Lector on it. Grab some Witch Hunters for a spiffy MR 2. You'll struggle against some armies like HE or Lizardmen, but it should be a fun and challenging army to play.

Of course the key to playing every Empire army is to pick up some good state troop options. 50+ block of Halberds with a priest and a BSB with two 10-man squads of archers or swordsmen for those nice counter charges. And what about spears? With 3 ranks and some covering fire from detachements these guys work great as a sort of barricade units, moving when they have to, but generally protecting the passage to your cannons or big ranged blocks.

Swordsmen are rather good against HE, mainly beacuse of their WS 4. With some magic boost from our Amber Wizards they can really earn their points back.

Use knights as flank smashers, Outriders as warmachine protectors and their younger, less experienced and less beardly cousins as a hunter-killer type of unit. Even a suicide squad of huntsmen could work wonders. For giggles throw M. Wulfhart inside, if you know that your enemy will have some big, nasty critters.

If you take ranged units remember to take a LOT of them, like TastyBagel said. A 5 man detachement won't do jack. A 10 man might just do something. If your taking normal shooters, position them so they can all shot. Use terrain likke hills or towers for your advantage.

Empire is far from perfect, but we're not terrible. Keep your guard up and keep on fighting!