Topic: Battle at the Gates of Kislev: 40.000 points per side battle (june 16th-17th)

[Rogers Kul]

Hi everyone,

I write you in representation of a group of warhammer players who are planning to make one of the largest Warhammer battle ever done. We don’t know what is the Guiness Record about that (in fact, there is no record in the Guiness Book about these matters…), but after a searching on the net we found an awesome, enthusiastic, inspirational battle series from Australia. I know his director is also registered in this forum (I salute you Hoodling’s!) and we have been following his blog for years.
Well, if I am not wrong, they put the limit in the Battle of Heffengen with about 35.000 points per side. All painted, of course. So, now we want to push the limits beyond in a battle of 40.000 points per side. It will be the recreation of an historical battle that all of you surely know:
The Battle at the Gates of Kislev

When and Where
The battle will take place in October (EDIT: Probably, at the end of 2017) in a town near Barcelona. We want to prepare all the stuff correctly to make the battle as awesome as possible.

Background
As you maybe know, the Battle at the Gates of Kislev is the final confrontation between the forces of Order (basically, Empire and Kislev, with a little support from Dwarves and High Elves) against the forces of the Dark Gods during the Great War against Chaos. There is a lot of information about that time in different Warhammer Armies books and other Supplements. In fact, it was the last large chaos invasion before the Storm of Chaos leaded by Archaon. It took place between 2.301 and 2.303 (Imperial Calendar) but some of the characters who play an important role in the war are well known: Teclis, Kholek Suneater, Scyla Anfingrimm, Magnus the Pious, Arbaal the Undefeatable, Valnir the Reaper, High King Alriksson… and many others, including Asavar Kul the Anointed, the Chaos commander.




How
We have some experience in large battles (but obviously not as large as this!). Last year we played a 12.000 points per side battle, and also a siege battle recreating the siege of Altdorf by Glottkin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GpLmRX5kJU), where 20.000 points of Chaos attacked 10.000 points of Imperial defenders. So, we have some experience on these matters. But 40.000 points per side is something special and unique. We will make a big effort in economic and time-working terms. And precisely for that reason, we want to make it in the best way possible.
All miniatures of the table will be painted, of course. That’s the minimum. But we will also focus on scenery. Epic battles claims for epic scenery. So, with that idea in my mind, we search for the best scenery range in the market… and we find another member of that forum: Tabletop World.
Thanks to them, we will try to recreate not only some solitary buildings in the table (such a guard tower, a mill or a bridge), but also the gates and buildings of Kislev itself!!
There will be 4 players per side (EDIT: 3 for Team Kul, 4 for Team Magnus) who will lead an entire flanc or an army host. For example, in the Empire side, one player will lead the defenders of Kislev, while another will drive the cavalry army who will appear in the second turn.

Rules
We will use 9th Age rules to play the battle. This fantastic fanmade rulebook is now the version largely most used in Spain, and we will try to convince the rest of you to use their rules: it’s free, is well playtested and is well balanced. At any rate, we will introduce some little changes for this specific battle because of its huge dimension. EDIT: We've changed that. We'll finally use WF 8th edition


Preparation
Of course we will make a battle report and we will also record it for youtube, but meanwhile we have created a specific blog (both in English and Spanish) where all information, armies, models, etc could be found. We will try to update it at least one or two times per week, showing conversion ideas, painted miniatures, modelling articles and others:

http://thegatesofkislev.blogspot.com.es/

This is a crazy idea, but we want to make it. And most important, we want to share it with you. We hope this could be an inspiration for other players (as the Hoodling’s Hole was for us) and maybe you could take some ideas about painting schemes, conversions, fillers, scenery or anything else. By the way, there will be a lot of ministures non from GW range, such as Rackham, Mom, Scibor, Avatars of War, Mierce, Forge World…

After this large explanation I will stop writing… Later I will explain you some interesting things about the army list, characters and other.

Any comment/opinion will be well received!


P.S. I know that some years ago Hoodling's Hole started a post with this very same goal. That post has helped me a lot to prepare this battle. Thanks all of you who participated in that post.

[Naitsabes]

VERY EXCITING!

This is (or should be) every warhammer player's dream. Looking forward to seeing how you progress. How much will you be trying to stay true to the sometimes contradictory sources. e.g. is there a separate cavalry army charging down heroe's hill? Is the Dwarf High King in the city (like in some of the older material) or coming to the rescue from a flank (I think that is how it's described in 'Empire at War')? Can you share some of the details...as much as you've nailed it down at this point?

[Rogers Kul]

Hmmm, there is someone here who knows what I am talking about! Good point, Naitsabes.
Actually there are a lot of versions concerning this war. We've been collecting almost all of them within different army books (monstly Empire, but also Reign of Chaos, Warriors of Chaos, Champions of Chaos, Dwarves, High Elves...) from different Wahammer editions, and other books (Empire at war is one of them), even in the description of some magic items (i.e. stuff of Volans, Banner of Griphon...) or special characters (i.e. Tarok and Angkor, the Chaos War Mammoth, from Forge World).
We gathered all the information from them in order to fill the gaps and achieve as many information as posible. Finally I made a document that you can take a look in the blog; I'm sorry but unfortunately this is the only part I wrote only in spanish because most of my sources were in this lenguage.

But answering your questions, High King Alriksson will deploy inside Kislev, because this is the most common version.
The Cavalry Army (Imperial Vanguard Army in the picture below), will enter from the flank of Chaos Army in the second turn. Probably I will add a hill in the battleboard that is not indicated in the picture; but if I do so, it will be closer to Magnus.

[KevinC]

AWESOME! This is the coolest thing I've ever heard of!

[Sharkbelly]

Very cool.

[Naitsabes]

Hmmm, there is someone here who knows what I am talking about!

well, we have been thinking about staging that very same battle over here for quite some time. But, always decided that it needed to be even bigger than what we had available model-wise and so did something else instead. Now, you are about to set the bar pretty high! But one day, our time will come.

We gathered all the information from them in order to fill the gaps and achieve as many information as posible. Finally I made a document that you can take a look in the blog; I'm sorry but unfortunately this is the only part I wrote only in spanish because most of my sources were in this lenguage.

I think I found it: 'Trasfondo oficial de la Gran Guerra contra el Caos'. Let's see what google translate can do. And, even just having that list of sources at the end is very useful. Now if you had a list of ALL the sources (even the contradictory ones) please post.

Hope you guys can deliver on your rather ambitious painting schedule. I love the scratch built giant war altar. Keep it up!

[StealthKnightSteg]

Like with Hoodlings battles I approve!

[Baron von Klatz]

This is really exciting! Can't wait to see what comes of this, it'll certainly put the 9th rules to the test.

[Rogers Kul]

I think I found it: 'Trasfondo oficial de la Gran Guerra contra el Caos'. Let's see what google translate can do. And, even just having that list of sources at the end is very useful. Now if you had a list of ALL the sources (even the contradictory ones) please post.

Of course I can (if I remember it all!):

Warhammer Armies: Reign of Chaos (1998)
Warhammer Armies supplement: Champions of Chaos (1998)
Warhammer Armies: Warriors of Chaos (2008)

Warhammer Armies: The Empire (1995)
Warhammer Armies: The Empire (2000)
Warhammer Armies: The Empire (2011)

Warhammer Armies: Dwarves (2005)

Gotrek and Felix: Beastslayer (2001)
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Realms of Sorcery (2005)
The History of Bernhart the Brave (a short story from Inferno! magazine) (pdf)
Warhammer: Heirs of Sigmar (2005)
The Empire at War (2006)
The Empire. Uniforms and heraldry (2008)
Warhammer Rulebook 8th Edition (2009)
Forge World rules for Angkor, the Chaos War Mammoth (pdf)


There are other books, such as newer versions of the Warhammer Armies, but they only repeat exactly the same text of older versions.

[grimgorgoroth]

FANTÁSTICO

[Oxycutor]

I think I found it: 'Trasfondo oficial de la Gran Guerra contra el Caos'. Let's see what google translate can do. And, even just having that list of sources at the end is very useful. Now if you had a list of ALL the sources (even the contradictory ones) please post.

Of course I can (if I remember it all!):

Warhammer Armies: Reign of Chaos (1998)
Warhammer Armies supplement: Champions of Chaos (1998)
Warhammer Armies: Warriors of Chaos (2008)

Warhammer Armies: The Empire (1995)
Warhammer Armies: The Empire (2000)
Warhammer Armies: The Empire (2011)

Warhammer Armies: Dwarves (2005)

Gotrek and Felix: Beastslayer (2001)
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Realms of Sorcery (2005)
The History of Bernhart the Brave (a short story from Inferno! magazine) (pdf)
Warhammer: Heirs of Sigmar (2005)
The Empire at War (2006)
The Empire. Uniforms and heraldry (2008)
Warhammer Rulebook 8th Edition (2009)
Forge World rules for Angkor, the Chaos War Mammoth (pdf)


There are other books, such as newer versions of the Warhammer Armies, but they only repeat exactly the same text of older versions.

I would suggest including the following

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay: Realm of the Ice Queen.
Warhammer Armies: Kislev.
Warhammer: Storm of Chaos.

Not sure of the dates, but around 2006/2007,   around 2002 and around 2002.   

[Rogers Kul]

Thank you Oxycutor, i'll try to get the Ice Queen book.
I've consulted the other two, but the information within is scarce. Sadly, the Kislev book is really small.


On the other hand, I will list you what special characters we'll include and what units we cannot from the army book. If you see something missing, please note it!

Chaos side
Characters
Asavar Kul
Engra deathsword
Kholek Suneater
Angkor and Tarok
Arbaal the Undifeated
Vanir the Reaper
Scyla Anfingrimm

Not allowed
Infernal cannon

Empire side
Characters
Magnus the Pious
Teclis
Finreir
Yrtle
Great Teogonist (does anyone know his name??)
Ar Ulrik Kriestov
Zar Alexander (or Alexis)
High King Alriksson
Volans
Frederik von Tarnus
Peter Lazlo

Not allowed
Luminarc
Huracanum
human archmages

[KevinC]

Rogers Kul,

Are you guys writing rules for the characters that don't have rules?

The 4th edition Empire book had rules for Magnus the Pious, which were really cool. He refused to bear a magic item until he became Emperor.

[S.O.F]

Not allowed
Luminarc
Huracanum
human archmages

Technically there would also be no Reiksguard and arguably no Helstrom Rockets either

[Rogers Kul]

Rogers Kul,

Are you guys writing rules for the characters that don't have rules?

The 4th edition Empire book had rules for Magnus the Pious, which were really cool. He refused to bear a magic item until he became Emperor.

We have an especific post on the 9th Age forum to make rules for them: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?thread/7215-the-battle-of-the-gates-of-kislev/

And yes, I got the Empire Army book for 4th edition. But I don't like his rules at all... I imagine Magnus more like Sigmar priest with inspirational leadership and tactical skills more than a mighty warrior. We are still discussing these matters in the group!

Not allowed
Luminarc
Huracanum
human archmages

Technically there would also be no Reiksguard and arguably no Helstrom Rockets either

Really?!?! It's not the first time that I read in a forum that Helstrom rockets are more modern, but I didn't found the offcial source, where did you find this information? But what surprise me more is concerning Reiskguard! When did it appear then?

[S.O.F]

The Reiksguard in their current format were commissioned by Emperor Wilhelm III sometime after his ascension in 2429. The Reikland certainly had Knightly Orders representing its Elector, the Reikland Guard of the era of the Vampire Wars or the Reiksknecht during the late first millennium.

The Helstorm is considered newer by the way it is presented in the fluff. since it's appellation comes from the Elector of Middenland, 7th generic and in the 8th the current sitting Elector. It could have been nameless for hundreds of years or had another nickname but the presentation suggests it would probably be more recent.

Also repeating weapons from the College of Engineers would have only been available to the Elector of Reikland's personal troops during the Great War as well. A few may have slipped into the service of other Electors but certainly no other province would field Outriders.

[KevinC]

Here is my take on Magnus...

Magnus the Pious

                           M  WS  BS   S  T  W   I  A  LD
Magnus the Pious  4    5    5    4  4   3   5  3  10
Steel (Warhorse)   8    3    0    4  3   1   3  1   6

Magnus the Pious may be included in any army of the Empire. His points cost counts against the army’s Lords allowance.

Points: 300

Troop Type: Cavalry (Special Character, Warrior Priest).

Equipment: Hand weapon, shield, full plate armour and barding.

Special Rules: Hold the Line!, Divine Power, Righteous Fury, Battle Prayers, Stubborn.

Halo of the God-King: A devout and humble nobleman wholly dedicated to the Cult of Sigmar, Magnus of Nuln rose to denounce the Chaos Hordes of Asavar Kul. It was Magnus whose promise of hope pulled the Empire from the depths of despair; and it was Magnus who united the full military might of the Empire to march upon the enemy of mankind. With his unyielding faith in Sigmar, Magnus the Pious radiates with the aura and courage of the God-King himself as he leads the Men of the Empire into battle.

Magnus the Pious has a 4+ ward save and a Magic Resistance (3). In addition, all of Magnus’s attacks count as being magical attacks.

Heir to the Imperial Throne: After defeating the tumultuous Chaos invasion of the Everchosen – Asavar Kul during the historic events known as the Great War Against Chaos, it was by demand of the citizens of the Empire that Magnus ascend to the Imperial Throne. Magnus had emerged as the savor of the Empire in its darkest hour, and so it would be that Emperor Magnus would usher the Empire into a great age of prosperity.

If Magnus is included in your army, he must be the army General. This means Karl Franz and Magnus the Pious may not be included in the same army. In addition, Magnus’s Inspiring Presence special rule has a range of 18”.

[Naitsabes]

Great discussion!

Regarding the Reiksguard I seem to recall that there are contradictory sources on its origin. We had a discussion on this forum some time ago but I was unable to dig it up. In any case, even if you don't call them Reiksguard, I think some form of elite knights with Reiksguard rules are called for. Magnus deserves a stubborn bodyguard!

Not having the Rocket Battery will work to your advantage though 

I would consider making Volans and von Tarnus Lv2 but all other hedge wizards only Lv1.

The inferno magazine article has a bunch more names for heroes and units. Consider using the ones that don't contradict the newer version, e.g. Haszteech, Chaos champion, charged in at the head of his dark knights or Aylmar Benjakson’s band of Dwarfish Longbeards, from Karaz-A-Karak, help defend the city.

There is a little blurp in the Ogre Kingdom book about tribes fighting on both sides in the war so they could also be there at the final battle (but I think I recall that the Ironblaster wasn't invented yet if you look at the timeline). So if you run into a crunch painting-wise and someone around you had painted ogres sitting on a shelf...

[Rogers Kul]

Thank you all!

KevinC: this is what I thinking about. Not so powerful in combat skills but blessed by Sigmar, stubborn and large range for Inspiring presence (well this is not really much in a 7 meters long table, but this is better than anything...  )

I would consider making Volans and von Tarnus Lv2 but all other hedge wizards only Lv1.

That's exactly what we are planning to do. And only one level 1 mage for each lore.

There is a little blurp in the Ogre Kingdom book about tribes fighting on both sides in the war so they could also be there at the final battle (but I think I recall that the Ironblaster wasn't invented yet if you look at the timeline). So if you run into a crunch painting-wise and someone around you had painted ogres sitting on a shelf...

This means... me!! All right, I'm going to review my ogre's Army Book.


Naitsabes and S.O.F.: this is forum is what I was searching for... a pool of wisdom. Thank you very much for your explanations. We will try to make our Magnus army as "real" as posible. I am waiting for the intervention of my brother-in-arms, Pep, in this discussion; he is a more experienced empire general than me.

[GamesPoet]

Looks like excellence to me!

[Rogers Kul]

There is a little blurp in the Ogre Kingdom book about tribes fighting on both sides in the war so they could also be there at the final battle (but I think I recall that the Ironblaster wasn't invented yet if you look at the timeline). So if you run into a crunch painting-wise and someone around you had painted ogres sitting on a shelf...

I found a short reference in the last Ogre Kingdoms army book where, in fact, claims that some ogre tribes took part in the war. In both sides... This could add some good stuff in both armies, and I have and collection of 6.000+ points of painted ogres. But I don't want to mix a lot of extraempire or extrachaos armies in the battle... so, we could add one or two regiments per side: bull ogres, ironguts or maneaters, but nothing more.

[Sharkbelly]

Well, the ogres most likely to be fighting in the battle would be maneaters. Ironguts can easily double as maneaters with great weapons, and characters tend to fit in well too. A giant unit of ogre maneaters on one side or the other?

[Rogers Kul]

Hmmm... clearly a big unit of ogres could be more suitable than 2 o 3 smaller. Yes, I like it. There are 8 maneaters in my ogre collection and I think the other chaos player has some of theme too. We could fit maneaters in the empire army and ironguts (mine, are chaos style) with chaos.

By the way, last friday finally arrives our order from Tabletop World. It's definitely awesome!

[Zygmund]

Those Tabletop World buildings are awesome. I was drooling on their Christmas bundle, but couldn't afford any of it.

This whole battle project is megalomaniac in the best possible way. 

-Z

[David22]

What company sells those sweet sweet buildings?