Topic: Well I am just amazed how much I like 4th and 5th edition

[KTG17]

I really had no interest in WFB during their 4th and 5th runs for various reasons, but after getting the starters, I can't get over how much fun I am having with these sets. Where I preferred the grimdark brought in during 6th, I find the color of the older sets kind of refreshing. Same with the designs.

I originally set out with the 4th starter to get all the miniatures needed to play the scenario, replacing the card units with their metal counterparts. But scope creep as creeped in a little bit and I ended up expanding on both armies a little. Partly to give me some variety but I also thought I would give me some of the options that my 5th armies have, so if I wanted to use the High Elves from 4th to fight the Bretonians from 5th, I would have champions, standards, and musicians and so forth. So I have command groups for my High Elf spearmen, an army standard, and something I am super stoked about - the old Silver Helms.

I know there are newer metal ones with more stylish horses but when I saw these I just about died. Had to have them. I also picked up a standard and champion to lead them.

I also managed to find just the body of Eltharion who came on the High Elf War Griffon, who I am going to put on the legs of a silver helm and give me an option to make my general on a horse than the over-powering Griffon for smaller games.

For the goblins I also got a couple of old command guys, 3 STONE TROLLS which I have always loved, and decided to incorporate one of the Goblin Chariots I had bought for 6th, painting it up in the brighter colors of the older days.

To top things off, I picked up a bunch of the old banners for both armies. You know the old stickers they sold in blister packs.

So pretty excited about all. What also really has me excited is how all I needed was the box set. Since the game came with the Warhammer Armies mini book, I have everything I need to field what I have, so don't really need the army books. The same book includes some spells for wizards so I don't need the Warhammer Magic expansion. I am all set. Love it!

As for 5th, I mentioned before that I expanded my Bretonnians and Lizardmen to match the example armies in the Battles book and thats all been done, even getting the Skinks on Cold Ones. I really don't plan on expanding on either, except maybe the Bretonnians using the 4th ed Warhammer Armies book mention above - like the cannon they have. I have see them on eBay and think they look pretty cool.

I was considering doing a 5th army - Empire, but I would want the meat of it to include those old Halberdiers, but they seem expensive and hard to find shields for. But since I already have the 6th starter army, and then the later Battalion set and some expansions, I think I have enough Empire.

One of the things I really like about these earlier editions are the smaller unit sizes. I know units of 5 wont last long, but if I ever wanted to try out some random unit, thats all it would take. Its actually making the later 10 man units kind of annoying.

Anyway, I have reset my hobby a bit, and plan on building and painting the 4th edition armies first them working my way up, even if most of the later edition starters have been built, I am just not going to paint them yet. I want to build these armies, play 4th for awhile, and work my way up through the rest of the systems. I am dying to start the 5th armies, but making myself wait.

I really wish I got to play these in their prime.

[GamesPoet]

Ah, the nostaligia of 4th and 5th, you can still play them now.  Have fun!

And those Silver Helms do look sweet.

[Michael Stockin]

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[brr-icy]

I like 5th when i just want to use a character that plows through everything and stays alive. Herohammer at it's finest, it's where i started playing and played for years. 6th will always be my main game, but i'll throw a game of 5th out there once in a while. The models I have are a mix of 4th-aos, whatever was cheapest at the time. I'm only picky on if the unit is coherent or not, the army can be brought together with the paint scheme

[KTG17]

Yeah I am not really intending to get into the over-powering characters, although between the High Elf War Griffon and Grom's chariot I wouldn't be surprised to see some heads troll. But its also why I wanted to expand a little on each army to give me some alternatives and use less imposing character models.

Speaking of characters, I think its interesting in 4th and 5th how unit champions come from the character pool. If you are playing expensive characters, then it looks like you have to be a little choosy on who gets a champion, which I think is pretty cool. I am used to the later edition lists where everyone has that option. I prob prefer the later, but I really like how the early ones are different.

[FVC]

Herohammer aside - which is a real problem and needs to be avoided - I do tend to think of the period 1995-2002 or so as being Warhammer Fantasy's golden age.

It had outgrown some of the early bumps, the 1993 army books (4th edition Empire, High Elves, O&Gs, etc.) were good but a bit flawed, and it was really hitting its stride in terms of creativity and colour. Army books like 1996's Wood Elves or Bretonnia, 1997's Realm of Chaos set, or 1999's Vampire Counts are really the peak of Warhammer's art direction and writing, I think, and while there are some more spectacular models from afterwards, I think they're mostly following the pattern established in the late 90s. Look at models like the old school Green Knight, from 96, or the Red Duke from Circle of Blood (1997) and they definitely hold up today. The original Archaon model - off the top of my head, I think from around 2001? - is another good example, but maybe I just like cool armoured people on magic horses.

[Zygmund]

Agree the nineties models tend to be the coolest ones. Right to Mordheim & the 6th ed Empire models (designed in the 90's, which shows in a positive way).

Never quite played the 4th or 5th eds, although I was hanging around with people who did, and painted with them and even refereed one of their game. It was a time when I decided Warhammer was outside of my budget, and I had my belly and shelves full of modeling from the late 80's.

Have you seen Warhammer Renaissance? It's a somewhat simplified version of 4-5th eds, with some ideas from other editions and downplaying the herohammer aspect. AFAIK, the project is only present in FB, but you can listen to the Crown of Command podcast episode where they chat with Balder Asmussen:

https://anchor.fm/thecrownofcommandpodcast/episodes/Warhammer-Renaissance-with-Balder-Asmussen-eefbsk

-Z

[brr-icy]

Herohammer aside - which is a real problem and needs to be avoided - I do tend to think of the period 1995-2002 or so as being Warhammer Fantasy's golden age.

It had outgrown some of the early bumps, the 1993 army books (4th edition Empire, High Elves, O&Gs, etc.) were good but a bit flawed, and it was really hitting its stride in terms of creativity and colour. Army books like 1996's Wood Elves or Bretonnia, 1997's Realm of Chaos set, or 1999's Vampire Counts are really the peak of Warhammer's art direction and writing, I think, and while there are some more spectacular models from afterwards, I think they're mostly following the pattern established in the late 90s. Look at models like the old school Green Knight, from 96, or the Red Duke from Circle of Blood (1997) and they definitely hold up today. The original Archaon model - off the top of my head, I think from around 2001? - is another good example, but maybe I just like cool armoured people on magic horses.

agreed on those models for sure, except archaon's original, i much prefer the 6th one, at least his head is on his shoulders instead of his sternum. I"ve seen it modded up higher on the original one and didn't mind it as much then. Heinrich Kemmler is another really nice model from that era

[KTG17]

Herohammer aside - which is a real problem and needs to be avoided - I do tend to think of the period 1995-2002 or so as being Warhammer Fantasy's golden age.

I actually avoided WFB during those days mostly being turned off by ranked infantry and the more cartoonish look of WFB at the time. I loved Man O' War, Warhammer Quest, and still have those games, but I wasn't crazy about a lot of what I was seeing in WFB. I didn't take the deep dive until recently and it was mostly because of the darker look of 6th. Then I went out and bought every army from that period going forward. It wasn't until I saw some nice deals for the 4th and 5th starters that I decided to go down that hole (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=53028.msg1078383#msg1078383). Its been more fun than I thought it would be.

Never quite played the 4th or 5th eds, although I was hanging around with people who did, and painted with them and even refereed one of their game. It was a time when I decided Warhammer was outside of my budget, and I had my belly and shelves full of modeling from the late 80's.

Well, I think the 4th starter is a great, great self-contained game. Its like getting the 6th edition starter with Ravening Hordes all at once. If you ever find a complete starter for a good price, I say grab it.

I have assembled and primed my 4th edition Silver Helms. I love these guys!

I haven't glued the shields on yet but I do have them. Some took some restoration. The Champ and Standard are right out of the blister packs. Amazing some of these models remain unopened after all these years. I have the later plastic Silver Helms but I really like keeping the aesthetics of the period the same across any game I have. I didn't know these guys were released let alone with those cheesy horses, so when I saw them I just had to have them.

Also, in some lot I ended up with a later version of the Silver Helm champ, and since I couldn't find another hero on foot that I liked I thought I would try and do something with it. I put it on a modern plastic spearman legs and the shield is from one of the Helm's blisters. I opted to go with a different style of shields so had this extra. I put the rivet looking thing on it to cover those stupid holes shields had at the time. I don't know what GW was thinking. No the shield isn't going to stay there like that, I will wait to glue it to his hand till after everything is painted.

Anyway, not the best mini, but looks like the period I am trying to capture and is good enough to fill the role of a minor hero.

[GamesPoet]

I like how the helms are each different.

[Zygmund]

Well, I think the 4th starter is a great, great self-contained game. Its like getting the 6th edition starter with Ravening Hordes all at once. If you ever find a complete starter for a good price, I say grab it.

Had it once, but I didn't like the models and sold everything. The models have not aged well, GW has produced much better metals before and plastics after. Just kept some HE archers which were painted and based.

Might have the 4th ed rules somewhere. And of course the Empire armybook. But for nostalgic deep-thought games, I usually go all the way to the 3rd ed. Warhammer Renaissance, however, I see somewhat interesting.

-Z

[KTG17]

I agree on the plastics. They kept me away too. I think for me this is just a fun diversion from the more serious atmosphere of the later editions. If I hadn't set out to get all the metal minis in the Battle for Maugthrond Pass scenario, I am not sure I would be as fond of it all today. But as I expanded on the collection I have found there is so much more to the set than just the scenario.

Speaking of which, I wanted lesser powerful models for my generals Eltharion and Grom. I managed to get just the bodies off eBay, and while I really wanted Eltharion on foot since that is what I have with Grom, I had a leftover horse and Silver Helm legs, so I mounted him. He just looks like he belongs on something. Not sure the spear and sword pose would have been what I was looking for on foot.

]

I think near half of the elven army for Maugthrond Pass is tied up in Eltharion and his Griffon, which made me think if I ever wanted to play small games, or against my 5th Brettonians or Lizardmen, its mostly always going to fall on him. The other armies seem more rounded.  Also using Eltharion on a horse gives me more points for the Silver Helms.

I also have another leftover Silver Helm, the one with the wings on his helmet on the box cover, and was going to use him as an hero or Battle Standard. 

So with the three Stone Trolls I got, this is really it for 4th for awhile.

[Shadow_Zero]

One of the things I really like about these earlier editions are the smaller unit sizes. I know units of 5 wont last long, but if I ever wanted to try out some random unit, thats all it would take. Its actually making the later 10 man units kind of annoying.

Care to elaborate?

[KTG17]

I just meant that in 6th onwards, the minimum number of troops in most troop units was 10, so if I wanted a unit of Empire Crossbowmen, I had to have 10. If I wanted 2 units I needed 20 models. Even if 5 aren't as effective, if all I wanted was a small unit I could do it. So it would mean I might try out different types of units since I wouldnt need so many models.

[Zygmund]

I just meant that in 6th onwards, the minimum number of troops in most troop units was 10, so if I wanted a unit of Empire Crossbowmen, I had to have 10. If I wanted 2 units I needed 20 models. Even if 5 aren't as effective, if all I wanted was a small unit I could do it. So it would mean I might try out different types of units since I wouldnt need so many models.

In the 6th ed and onwards, the Empire detachment rule allows you to take small units. The minimum size is five.

I've myself often played with 6-strong crossbowmen in the 6th and 7th eds.

-Z

[Warlord]

KTG was sticking to Ravening Hordes I believe… where all infantry units were 10 minimum.

[Shadow_Zero]

I agree on the plastics. They kept me away too. I think for me this is just a fun diversion from the more serious atmosphere of the later editions. If I hadn't set out to get all the metal minis in the Battle for Maugthrond Pass scenario, I am not sure I would be as fond of it all today. But as I expanded on the collection I have found there is so much more to the set than just the scenario.

Speaking of which, I wanted lesser powerful models for my generals Eltharion and Grom. I managed to get just the bodies off eBay, and while I really wanted Eltharion on foot since that is what I have with Grom, I had a leftover horse and Silver Helm legs, so I mounted him. He just looks like he belongs on something. Not sure the spear and sword pose would have been what I was looking for on foot.

]

I think near half of the elven army for Maugthrond Pass is tied up in Eltharion and his Griffon, which made me think if I ever wanted to play small games, or against my 5th Brettonians or Lizardmen, its mostly always going to fall on him. The other armies seem more rounded.  Also using Eltharion on a horse gives me more points for the Silver Helms.

I also have another leftover Silver Helm, the one with the wings on his helmet on the box cover, and was going to use him as an hero or Battle Standard. 

So with the three Stone Trolls I got, this is really it for 4th for awhile.

Is the High Elf griffon the same figure as Karl Franz' ?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Yes, but with different wings. The same model was also used for Louen Leoncoeur's hippogryph, but with different tail and claws.

[Wolfgang aus Wien]

80s and 90s were GW's Golden Age, everything kind of went downhill from about 2000-onwards.
The last GW/Citadel products I was into were Battlefleet Gothic - a massively expanded repackaging of Space Fleet and Mordheim - a repackaging of the Warhammer Skirmish rules.
To my way of thinking, nothing will ever repalce absolutely beautiful and iconic minis like the 4th edition monopose High Elf Spearmen and Archers Empire Halberdiers or Goblins.
Newer models may be more detailed, but I don't care, I still prefer the older look.
Herohammer certainly did have its' faults, if you played competitively, you pretty much HAD to go for a top-down approach to army selection: Make your General as much of an invincible killing machine as possible, ditto for the Wizard and any other characters, then move on to elite units and do the same to them. Only take the absolute MINIMUM number of regular troops required by the rules, because they're basically just decoration anyway and will do NOTHING in the game.
Which is why my Bretonnians did horribly  I was the only one in my area naïve enough to actually have Men-at-Arms in his army instead of Knights, Knights, Knights, more Knights and nothing but Knights, while my cheesed-to-da-max Night Goblin army fared very well indeed.
I did welcome the fact that 6th edition forced people to include at least a minimum number of regular troops, but didn't care for the dull, drab, streamlined asthetics very much.