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Author Topic: First Tournament  (Read 1635 times)

Offline commandant

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2024, 02:46:29 PM »
Sure but they are not going to do so much damage to them in 2 turns of shooting that they can avoid combat with them.

Offline koh68

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2024, 04:59:35 PM »
So Tourney was Yesterday

Went 1W-2L

My biggest takeaway is the Knights in practice are rough.

The final list I ran looks like this:

In every game 2 things happened, My archers more than paid for themselves. My knights died immediately.

The final list was this:

The Empire of Man - April - [1998pts]
Main Force [1998pts]

Characters [808pts]
Captain of the Empire [132pts]: Hand Weapon, Shield, Great Weapon, Demigryph, Barding, Hand Weapon, Wicked Claws, Full Plate Armour, Battle Standard Bearer
General of the Empire [261pts]: Hand Weapon, Shield, Halberd, Griffon, Heavy Armour, Serrated Maw, Wicked Claws, Full Plate Armour, General, The White Cloak
Wizard Lord [415pts]: Hand Weapon, Wizard Level 4, Illusion, Imperial Griffon, Heavy Armour, Serrated Maw, Wicked Claws, Lore Familiar, Mace of Helsturm

 Core [510pts]
2x Empire Archers [40pts]:
• 5x Archer [8pts]: Hand Weapon, Warbow, Scouts
Empire Knights [116pts]:
• 5x Empire Knight [22pts]: Barded Warhorse, Barding, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance
• 1x Preceptor [6pts]
Empire Knights [126pts]: Stubborn
• 5x Empire Knight [22pts]: Barded Warhorse, Barding, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance
• 1x Preceptor [6pts]
2x Empire Knights [94pts]:
• 4x Empire Knight [22pts]: Barded Warhorse, Barding, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance
• 1x Preceptor [6pts]

 Special [285pts]
Demigryph Knights [133pts]:
• 2x Demigryph Knight [63pts]: Demigryph, Barding, Hand Weapon, Wicked Claws, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Full Plate Armour, Lance
• 1x Demigryph Preceptor [7pts]
Empire Greatswords [152pts]:
• 12x Greatsword [11pts]: Full Plate Armour, Great Weapon, Hand Weapon
• 1x Count's Champion [8pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [6pts]
• 1x Musician [6pts]


Rare [395pts]
Empire Steam Tanks [265pts]:
• 1x Steam Tank [265pts]: Engineer Commander, Steam Cannon, Steam Gun
2x Flagellants [65pts]:
• 5x Flagellant [13pts]: Flail, Hand Weapon

So lets get into the games

Game 1: Mission 1

Opponent is a very good player and brought Ogres. Had 2 Cannon Chariots, a Mammoth, and a death-star of ogres. Turn 1 I was out of range for a dispell and his Level 4 incinerated my entire unit of stubborn knights with a fireball, it was an omen on how the rest the day would go. Scouts took 2 Ogres down before being rundown. MY Wizard killed the Mammoth (before being taken down himself) the rest of my knights got mulched by flame thrower template and then combat. This was my worst loss of the day.

Game 2: mission 2


Opponent brought a really sweet Slannesh army almost all of older sculpts lead by a keeper of secrets. Turn one started well for me with my wizard and tank killing a chariot, and my scouts took down a fiend in the shooting phase, and got well positioned for some charges. His turn one was mostly positioning, my scouts were charged by the fiends, which he failed and then in stand and shoot another fiend was plinked off. Next turn Combat began with 3 of my units of knights charging, including a combo charge on demonettes, A TOTAL of 2 casualties were delivered before my knights were destroyed and the demons overran into my flagellants on both sides of the table. This game ground on ( His keeper of Secrets did kill itself which was pretty great) Wizard performed very well here. Steam tank did Steam Tank stuff. But the mission was breakpoint, so if reduced to 25% you lose. I had 93 total unit strength on the table vs his 112 (mostly in infantry). Losing my Knights cost me almost 40% of my unit strength, and started the down spiral. ended up being a very close

Game 3: Mission 5

Opponent was running goblins with fanatics. Fantatics are scary but can be dealt with. Column of Crystal saved my middle line from the whirling doom that is fanatics. My Wizard killed his spider, My Scouts took out his doom diver. My Stubborn Knights got wiped out by a Template spell. My other 5 man squad charged a squig herd and held their own before a fanatic mowed them down. Two fanatics zoned out a unit of knights forcing them to turn around, and effectively took them out of the game. the best performance from knights was holding a mangler squig for 4 turns as we both kept rolling low. General wiped a unit of Goblins, and the game went to time. Ended up winning this match.

Take aways

General on Griffon- Is a tank, decent in combat and perfect for setting up flank charges. I didn't use him as aggressively as I should and I believe that cost me my game 2 win.

BSB on Demi & Greatswords - lumped them together, altogether pretty good, slow compared to the rest of this list. making them more of a mop up unit than a combat block. almost always traded or paid for itself.

Wizard lord on Imperial Griffon - This build is WILD, a bit of a glass cannon but it mopped up a unit of 33 Demonettes solo as well as bodied a Giant Spider Illusion Mace is nuts.

Knights - Knights are made of paper, low toughness and there is much more AP out there than I expected. When they did get in they did ok, before just getting pushed back hard. First Charge helped but not enough

Archers w/ Scouts - Good, the best return on investment in the list ill most likely always bring these guys

Demi -  Also good, others have written more on this but they are an amazing choice

SteamTank - demands attention, causes disruptions and is good artillery

Flagellants - I didn't get a charge off with them in any game I played, they are nasty when they hit (from test games) I think for the points though the hellblaster is the better choice


All in all was a good event. And I have another in May, so ill update this with the list im theory crafting now!

Interested in your opinions from my observations
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Offline Clymer

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2024, 06:27:47 PM »
Thanks for the recap koh68!

I've had similar experiences with the speed differential between infantry, cavalry, and griffons. It's almost like they fight different battles and you have to think about how each part will fight independently.

So far I have only been running one unit of knights and they have punched way above their weight, except maybe in games vs. Chaos Warriors, but even then they have come out pretty even at least. I wonder if, in some sense, having just that one unit preserved them a bit because they seemed a smaller threat to my opponent and therefore just did not receive as much attention. Maybe an all-knight army is not going to be very effective for that reason and they just don't have enough wounds to stay in the fight for long. At the same time, you have to have some supporting units that can keep up with the griffons. I'll give it some thought. Would love to see your revised list ideas when you are ready to share.

Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline koh68

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2024, 08:27:45 PM »
I've had similar experiences with the speed differential between infantry, cavalry, and griffons. It's almost like they fight different battles and you have to think about how each part will fight independently.

That was a major issue I had as well, it made picking the fights much more difficult than I expected, plenty of times my GS got stuck behind units and came in to try and finish off whatever my knights failed to.   


I wonder if, in some sense, having just that one unit preserved them a bit because they seemed a smaller threat to my opponent and therefore just did not receive as much attention. Maybe an all-knight army is not going to be very effective for that reason and they just don't have enough wounds to stay in the fight for long.

I think that may be the case, seeing 18 knights on the table, alot of my opponents even commented that they needed to handle those before they could charge,  causing much more attention be shifted to them. in the Breakpoint match it just straight up hosed me not having more models on the table, I really need to analyze the missions more and work those into my list building plans.

I'm going to be experimenting with veteran halberd state troops, and maybe 1 or 2 MSU knights that will hang back for flanks and clean up.
I think WS4 and S4 is being overlooked for what it can bring to the table vs other 'expendable units' ill hopefully have that list done tomorrow!


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Offline Warlord

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2024, 05:57:05 AM »
Empire Greatswords [152pts]:
• 12x Greatsword [11pts]: Full Plate Armour, Great Weapon, Hand Weapon
• 1x Count's Champion [8pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [6pts]
• 1x Musician [6pts]

Any view on how the greatswords performed?
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Offline koh68

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2024, 12:27:28 PM »
The greatswords did well, when they got into combat. The main issue I had with them was the rest of my army was faster, leaving them as a mop up crew. I ran them with the BSB on demi as such:

DDGGGG
DDGGGG
DDGGGG

Alot of my local meta was running great weapons as well so as long as I got the charge off they struck first.

I liked them so much I'm going to be brining at least 18 in every list and if i can find the points possibly a block of 30 to use as an anvil.
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Offline Clymer

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2024, 02:20:12 PM »
Drilled could help with greatsword speed somewhat. I wonder about a group of 24 with Demigryph BSB, run 5-wide and 6 deep at deployment that would let them get 12” in the first turn.

I say this only “somewhat” helps because my experience is that the real speed differential between cav and infantry comes in charges and over runs. I’ve had my Demigryphs running off my opponents side of the board, or the side edge near opponents edge in turn 3 and even turn 2, while my “fast” infantry is still picking charge targets in the middle of the board. It’s a really tough dynamic to manage. Either cav is operating on its own, or it’s a kind of “one and done” for a supporting charge with infantry. Mostly I think of my knights as running down chaff units and warmachine hunting, and my Demi’s as an independent, highly mobile combat block.

The other reason I say “somewhat” is that it really depends on who gets the first turn whether it makes sense to march 12”. If I go 2nd, there’s a pretty good chance that my opponent will march up 8-12” in which case, I would redress the ranks prior to my first move and then move up. In which case Drilled didn’t help much. So, it’s hard to tell how worthwhile it is until I get a few more games in.
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline Clymer

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2024, 03:21:02 PM »
Hold the door!

Just read the FAQ on Drilled. While they only mention giving ground, the same logic applies to a FBIGO move, in that you should be able to redress the ranks. So Stubborn + Drilled on greatswords should be pretty awesome in any situation.

Move up 12", who cares if you get charged because either you win, or you FBIGO, redressing the ranks first and wham, 10+ attacks in the second turn of combat.

Maybe people had always been playing it that way, but I had just assumed they couldn't redress the ranks when giving ground or FBIGO, so my perspective just shifted to make Greatswords even better, and I thought they were pretty good to begin with.

Also, looks like MSU knights take a slight nerf bat hit from the Close Order rule being for unit strength 5+. This would mean that once you're down to your last two knights you lose the +1 Close Order bonus. Not the end of the world, and I think it kinda makes sense, but just something to be aware of when looking at cav lists.
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline koh68

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2024, 03:41:39 PM »
Yeah Drilled Greatswords are Excellent now IMO, Empire Knights losing close order really hurts I think. Winning combat in pure Calvary was narrow now I think its going to be tough against anything but fodder.

Mace Wizard getting Hosed hurts my list a lot, probably move my General to Imperial Griffon and run my level 4 on a horse, or on foot inside my greatswords to give Demonic Vigor, and Demonic Vessel to the greatswords

Hypothetically that's +1M +1S +1T +1I +1 Attack +1 AP


Assuming Demi Captain with BSB & Great Weapon and Level 4 Wizard in the unit and a total strength of 24
If the wizard manages to blow his load on enhancements and we go 10 wide

3 Captain Attacks at S7
4 Demi Attacks at S6
3 Wizard Attacks at S4
15 Greatsword Attacks at S7

All but the Wizards attacks at AP-3

This unit is a blender
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Offline Skyros

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2024, 03:55:10 PM »
Wouldn't it be nice if  we could take greatswords instead of knights as core, if we had a general of the empire as our leader, for example?

Offline Clymer

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2024, 04:42:48 PM »
I wonder if the Ogre Blade or Sword of Justice might be a good replacement for the Mace of Helstrom?

Ogre Blade would be wounding on 5+ vs. T6 with AP-2 and Armorbane(1). d3 wounds... It's no mace of helstrum, but not horrible either. Sword of Justice is wounding on 6s, but with re-rolls. Not as much AP, but does the average of a d3 number of wounds with each successful wound. I'm not sure which is statistically better. Swords of Justice also saves you 15 points, which is nothing to sneer at in a tight list.
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline PowerSeries

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2024, 04:45:59 PM »
The answer is Monster Slayer Sword, which kills on 6s entirely.  That means the other player has to avoid the combat or else.

Offline Clymer

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2024, 05:04:28 PM »
Monster Slayer is a good option. The main downside is that it's not very useful against other targets, so not very versatile. It means that the wizard is forgoing picking up a ward save in order to tool up versus a monster that may not appear.
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Offline commandant

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2024, 05:18:44 PM »
Empire knights only lose close order if you take them in tiny units. A knight unit of 4 has a US of 8

Offline koh68

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2024, 01:43:39 PM »
Alright, post FAQ this is what I'm looking at:



The Empire of Man - May test- [1998pts]

# Main Force [1998pts]

Characters [700pts]
Captain of the Empire [132pts]: Shield, Great Weapon, Demigryph, Full Plate Armour, Battle Standard Bearer
General of the Empire [343pts]: Shield, Imperial Griffon, Full Plate Armour, General, Charmed Shield, Dragon Slaying Sword, The White Cloak
Wizard Lord [225pts]: Wizard Level 4, Daemonology, Armour of Tarnus, Ruby Ring of Ruin

Core [500pts]
2x Empire Archers [40pts]:
• 5x Archer [8pts]: Scouts
Empire Knights [94pts]:
• 4x Empire Knight [22pts]: Shield, Lance
• 1x Preceptor [6pts]
State Missile Troops [35pts]:
• 5x State Missile Trooper [7pts]: Crossbow
  • Regimental Unit: Veteran State Troops
State Missile Troops [42pts]:
• 6x State Missile Trooper [7pts]: Crossbow
  • Regimental Unit: Empire Greatswords
Veteran State Troops [249pts]:
• 23x Veteran State Trooper [8pts]: Halberd
• 1x Sergeant [5pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [55pts]: Griffon Standard
• 1x Musician [5pts]
  • Detachment: State Missile Troops[1]

 Special [413pts]
Demigryph Knights [133pts]:
• 2x Demigryph Knight [63pts]: Full Plate Armour, Lance
• 1x Demigryph Preceptor [7pts]
Empire Greatswords [280pts]: Drilled, Magic Standard
• 20x Greatsword [11pts]
• 1x Count's Champion [8pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [6pts]
• 1x Musician [6pts]
  • Detachment: State Missile Troops[2]

Rare [385pts]
Empire Steam Tanks [265pts]:
• 1x Steam Tank [265pts]: Engineer Commander
Helblaster Volley Guns [120pts]

Plans here

Wizard, and BSB in the greatsword block, and abuse drilled to get a bunch of attacks
General is going to hunt large threats, or deliver flank charges
Knights will deploy in marching column and just rush to get to backfield, hoping to fly under the radar of larger threats

Veterans with griffon standard will pick and attempt to win fights against lesser troops

Archers do Archer things

Missile troops will provide some light pressure (also they are more than capable of charging if need be to setup disruption if need be)

Hellbalsterwill require attention but I didn't have enough points to squeeze in an engineer

not even going to talk about S-Tank and Demis


This brings me to the second build I'm debating.
The Empire of Man - May Test 2 - [1997pts]

Main Force [1997pts]

Characters [686pts]
Captain of the Empire [132pts]: Shield, Great Weapon, Demigryph, Full Plate Armour, Battle Standard Bearer
Engineers [45pts]:
• 1x Empire Engineer [45pts]
Grand Master [284pts]: Shield, Great Weapon, Demigryph, Full Plate Armour, General, Dragon Slaying Sword, The White Cloak
Wizard Lord [225pts]: Wizard Level 4, Daemonology, Armour of Tarnus, Ruby Ring of Ruin

Core [500pts]
2x Empire Archers [40pts]:
• 5x Archer [8pts]: Scouts
Empire Knights [94pts]:
• 4x Empire Knight [22pts]: Shield, Lance
• 1x Preceptor [6pts]
State Missile Troops [35pts]:
• 5x State Missile Trooper [7pts]: Crossbow
  • Regimental Unit: Veteran State Troops
State Missile Troops [42pts]:
• 6x State Missile Trooper [7pts]: Crossbow
  • Regimental Unit: Empire Greatswords
Veteran State Troops [249pts]:
• 23x Veteran State Trooper [8pts]: Halberd
• 1x Sergeant [5pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [55pts]: Griffon Standard
• 1x Musician [5pts]
  • Detachment: State Missile Troops[1]

 Special [426pts]
Demigryph Knights [133pts]:
• 2x Demigryph Knight [63pts]: Full Plate Armour, Lance
• 1x Demigryph Preceptor [7pts]
Empire Greatswords [293pts]: Drilled, Magic Standard
• 21x Greatsword [11pts]
• 1x Count's Champion [8pts]
• 1x Standard Bearer [6pts]
• 1x Musician [6pts]
  • Detachment: State Missile Troops[2]

Rare [385pts]
Empire Steam Tanks [265pts]:
• 1x Steam Tank [265pts]: Engineer Commander
Helblaster Volley Guns [120pts]

BSB goes in Vets
Wizard and Grandmaster goes in Greatswords (for additional attacks and a big threat. Took GS and DSS on him to give options in combat that is also cheaper than going ogre blade)
This managed to get me an extra greatsword and an engineer


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Offline PowerSeries

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2024, 07:48:33 PM »
I like the lists.  Note that I'm pretty sure you need to use a magic weapon if you have one, so the MSS takes priority over that Great Sword.

Offline koh68

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2024, 08:02:11 PM »
Quote
Rulebook, p. 213
Many models carry two or more combat weapons, giving them a choice of which to use upon entering the fray:

If a unit is equipped with two or more combat weapons, you must choose which it will use when its combat is chosen during Step 1.1 of the Choose & Fight Combat sub-phase.

The entire unit, including command, must use the same weapon (with the possible exception of units with the Motley Crew special rule). Characters can always choose separately – they are not obliged to use the same weapon as a unit they have joined.

If a unit champion has the option to be equipped differently to the rest of their unit, they can choose which weapon they will use separately.

Unless the weapon itself states otherwise (as do lances, for example), a unit cannot change weapons between rounds of combat if it remains locked in place and engaged in combat. The weapon chosen for the first round of a combat (i.e., the first round fought following a charge) must be used for the duration of the combat.
I had to look that one up, couldn't find anything specific on it but this  seems to suggest you still get to choose.
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Offline Athiuen

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2024, 11:02:42 PM »
It's in the magic items section:

pg 338:
Quote
A character that wields a magic weapon cannot set it aside to use a mundane equivalent. For example, a character cannot set aside a magic combat weapon to use a mundane great weapon instead.
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Offline koh68

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2024, 12:44:47 PM »
Thanks for clarifying! I couldnt find it.

I think that pushes me away from running the GM on Demi in an infantry block.... I could put BSB in the greatswords and run the Grandmaster with the Demi Knights hmm options
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Offline Warlord

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2024, 12:53:41 PM »
There is little point in taking a GM on Demi in an infantry block. Chapter Master either. Captain or General are the better options.
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Offline Grendel083

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2024, 08:19:38 AM »
Just read the FAQ on Drilled. While they only mention giving ground, the same logic applies to a FBIGO move, in that you should be able to redress the ranks. So Stubborn + Drilled on greatswords should be pretty awesome in any situation.
Not sure it would work on a FBIGO, as that is more of a flee than a move.

Edit: FBIGO is indeed a flee move, so drilled doesn't work. Give ground is not a flee.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2024, 10:45:11 AM by Grendel083 »

Offline PowerSeries

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2024, 12:04:15 PM »
Fbigo reforms after?  Or just pivots?

Offline Grendel083

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Re: First Tournament
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2024, 12:15:20 PM »
Fbigo reforms after?  Or just pivots?

Reform.
So really Drilled adds nothing extra in a FBIGO move, as all units get a reform.