Topic: Efficient units: the good, the bad, the middling ones

[sedobren]

1) I am curious why you think Witch Hunter is mid.

2) Captain I think is good also riding a Griffon or a Pegasus.

1) Because I don't think he's good enough to be considered good or bad enough to be considered bad.
If you could pick his buff before deployment instead of when writing the list then I'd rate him as good.

2) I'll be honest, I forgot the Pegasus. List updated. Not a fan of a Captain on Griffon though, I'd always try to find the points for a General on Imp. Griffon or just dont bother.

Ok I am going to buck the trend here and say the Captain is good because he makes your units immune to panic with Hold the Line. 

While true, I also find that with Ld9 + reroll most of the time is enough.
Hold the Line is nice to have, but I don't consider it crucial enough to spend ~50+ points on

the captain of the griffon has to be a bsb. It's one of the few bsb around that can be on a monster, so 18" range for the rerolls

[Minsc]

1) I am curious why you think Witch Hunter is mid.

2) Captain I think is good also riding a Griffon or a Pegasus.

1) Because I don't think he's good enough to be considered good or bad enough to be considered bad.
If you could pick his buff before deployment instead of when writing the list then I'd rate him as good.

2) I'll be honest, I forgot the Pegasus. List updated. Not a fan of a Captain on Griffon though, I'd always try to find the points for a General on Imp. Griffon or just dont bother.

Ok I am going to buck the trend here and say the Captain is good because he makes your units immune to panic with Hold the Line. 

While true, I also find that with Ld9 + reroll most of the time is enough.
Hold the Line is nice to have, but I don't consider it crucial enough to spend ~50+ points on

the captain of the griffon has to be a bsb. It's one of the few bsb around that can be on a monster, so 18" range for the rerolls

Hmm, you raise an interesting point.

[Clymer]

Is the steam tank really that good?

I haven't come around to try it out yet, but I am not quite sure I see the point in it.
Isnt it quite easy for your opponent to tie it up in close combat and thus prevent it from shooting?
Without the impact hits it does not really seem that scary in melee..

It’s not as good as it was in 7th, but still very good. Think of it as a cannon that can charge and is pretty much indestructible.

[The Peacemaker]

1) I am curious why you think Witch Hunter is mid.

2) Captain I think is good also riding a Griffon or a Pegasus.

1) Because I don't think he's good enough to be considered good or bad enough to be considered bad.
If you could pick his buff before deployment instead of when writing the list then I'd rate him as good.

2) I'll be honest, I forgot the Pegasus. List updated. Not a fan of a Captain on Griffon though, I'd always try to find the points for a General on Imp. Griffon or just dont bother.

Ok I am going to buck the trend here and say the Captain is good because he makes your units immune to panic with Hold the Line. 

While true, I also find that with Ld9 + reroll most of the time is enough.
Hold the Line is nice to have, but I don't consider it crucial enough to spend ~50+ points on

the captain of the griffon has to be a bsb. It's one of the few bsb around that can be on a monster, so 18" range for the rerolls

Got a page number for that 18"?
Best I can see in the rules is that the Captain BSB gets 8" because that's his 'command range'.

[Minsc]

Got a page number for that 18"?
Best I can see in the rules is that the Captain BSB gets 8" because that's his 'command range'.

Page 202 of the BBB.
Generals and BSBs who have the Large Target special rule or is mounted on a model with that rule increase their Command range from 12" to 18".

I'm not sure if I'll ever put my BSB on a Griffon (5 T5 wounds with realistically a 3+/5++ is alright, but not amazing - and he'll have a huge bullseye in his forehead), but the option is nice for sure. Maybe in a list that features some other large threats, like a General on Imp. Griffon, a Steamtank and some Demigryphs,etc.

[Skyros]

Is the steam tank really that good?

I haven't come around to try it out yet, but I am not quite sure I see the point in it.
Isnt it quite easy for your opponent to tie it up in close combat and thus prevent it from shooting?
Without the impact hits it does not really seem that scary in melee..

Well let's compare it to the war altar + arch lector of sigmar, coming at 245 points
It gets : D6+1 S5 impact hits.
After that, 3 attacks at WS5 S4 attacks
It has 5 W at T5 and 4+ armor save

Steam Tank , coming in at 265 points
It gets : D6+1 S6 impact hits
After that : D3+1 stomp attacks at S6, hitting automatically, AP-2
It has 10 W at T7 and a 3+ armor save

Oh and a cannon. And it sunbreakable.

It's fine if you don't think the steam tank is worth taking, but for its points, it seems way more worth taking than a war altar. Stronger impact hits, much better longevity in combat, both to give and receive wounds, and a signifcant ranged threat before it gets into combat.

[commandant]

Does the war alter not do magic nonsense, leadership nonsense as well

[Footpatrol2]

Is the steam tank really that good?

I haven't come around to try it out yet, but I am not quite sure I see the point in it.
Isnt it quite easy for your opponent to tie it up in close combat and thus prevent it from shooting?
Without the impact hits it does not really seem that scary in melee..

Well let's compare it to the war altar + arch lector of sigmar, coming at 245 points
It gets : D6+1 S5 impact hits.
After that, 3 attacks at WS5 S4 attacks
It has 5 W at T5 and 4+ armor save

Steam Tank , coming in at 265 points
It gets : D6+1 S6 impact hits
After that : D3+1 stomp attacks at S6, hitting automatically, AP-2
It has 10 W at T7 and a 3+ armor save

Oh and a cannon. And it sunbreakable.

It's fine if you don't think the steam tank is worth taking, but for its points, it seems way more worth taking than a war altar. Stronger impact hits, much better longevity in combat, both to give and receive wounds, and a signifcant ranged threat before it gets into combat.

You forgot the horse attacks on the war alter. We all know as well the horses do more damage.

The war altar can buff things prior to combat and pump out soulfire prayer semi reliably on his command phase.

[Mikkesh192]

Is the steam tank really that good?

I haven't come around to try it out yet, but I am not quite sure I see the point in it.
Isnt it quite easy for your opponent to tie it up in close combat and thus prevent it from shooting?
Without the impact hits it does not really seem that scary in melee..

Well let's compare it to the war altar + arch lector of sigmar, coming at 245 points
It gets : D6+1 S5 impact hits.
After that, 3 attacks at WS5 S4 attacks
It has 5 W at T5 and 4+ armor save

Steam Tank , coming in at 265 points
It gets : D6+1 S6 impact hits
After that : D3+1 stomp attacks at S6, hitting automatically, AP-2
It has 10 W at T7 and a 3+ armor save

Oh and a cannon. And it sunbreakable.

It's fine if you don't think the steam tank is worth taking, but for its points, it seems way more worth taking than a war altar. Stronger impact hits, much better longevity in combat, both to give and receive wounds, and a signifcant ranged threat before it gets into combat.

Never disputed that its by far better than a war alter, because it its.

I'd just rather take a cannon and some demis than a stank.

[Clymer]

I’ve noticed that the steam tank works well in support of infantry whereas Demis tend to end up way up the board, away from the infantry. And if you hold the demis back, then they are wasting their time and points, whereas the steam tank is still firing its cannon.

It’s less about whether the Steam Tank is better or worse than demis + cannon, and more about the tactics you plan to use.

[Grendel083]

Is the steam tank really that good?

I haven't come around to try it out yet, but I am not quite sure I see the point in it.
Isnt it quite easy for your opponent to tie it up in close combat and thus prevent it from shooting?
Without the impact hits it does not really seem that scary in melee..

Well let's compare it to the war altar + arch lector of sigmar, coming at 245 points
It gets : D6+1 S5 impact hits.
After that, 3 attacks at WS5 S4 attacks
It has 5 W at T5 and 4+ armor save

Steam Tank , coming in at 265 points
It gets : D6+1 S6 impact hits
After that : D3+1 stomp attacks at S6, hitting automatically, AP-2
It has 10 W at T7 and a 3+ armor save

Oh and a cannon. And it sunbreakable.

It's fine if you don't think the steam tank is worth taking, but for its points, it seems way more worth taking than a war altar. Stronger impact hits, much better longevity in combat, both to give and receive wounds, and a signifcant ranged threat before it gets into combat.

You forgot the horse attacks on the war alter. We all know as well the horses do more damage.

The war altar can buff things prior to combat and pump out soulfire prayer semi reliably on his command phase.

Yep, it also has 8 wounds, not 5.
The Lectors 3 gets added to the Altar’s 5.
And can take magic items

[Zygmund]

How do you run your Outriders to get use out of them?

Mine get shot or spelled to oblivion or panic before they can achieve anything much. I'm running two units of four. They need to get within 24" of the enemy, but then have too few wounds to sustain the counter fire. The unit is a prime target for all kind of nagging little things. And I think they're too expensive for a chaff unit to be wasted like that.

Furthermore, when a unit gets eradicated, it causes panic withing 6". My opponent has used my Outriders to really put my lines into disarray.

This is a problem against Elfs especially, but many other armies bring spells too.

I'm considering either putting the eight Outriders into a single unit, or taking crossbows instead. Overall, I'm starting to think that Crossbowmen are better than Outriders or Helblaster, because they're reliable and can sustain wounds.

-Zyg

[madeinitaly1]

I use two units of 5 and they usually run on the sides shooting
If you play against elves you can hide until you get rid of some of their archers, but anyway they shoot better and at a longer distance
Against any other army like chaos brets beasts and orcs they perform very well

[Minsc]

Steam Tank and War Altar used to be comparable as tanky bricks, but I don't think they really can be compared anymore in TOW due to the changes to Stubborn.

War Altar will only do reliable damage on the turn it charges, after that it will continously lose combat and FBIGO or Break, making it unreliable as a brick.

Steam Tank does marginally more damage in ongoing combat but will take less damage and is Unbreakable to boot, so unlike the War Altar it doesn't really care about losing to static CR.

The War Altar is a (very overpriced) support chariot, that needs to be used with some finesse or it will let you down.
(And the casting debuff risks hurting yourself more than your opponent.)

The Steam Tank is a brick with a cannon that you throw (or threaten to throw) at an annoying/dangerous enemy unit that you don't really know how to deal with.

Quite different roles imo, and out of the two, I know that I'd trust the Steam Tank to do its part more often than the War Altar.

[Zygmund]

If you play against elves you can hide until you get rid of some of their archers, but anyway they shoot better and at a longer distance.

What do you use to get rid of their archers if you keep your shooting out of range or hide it?

You mean HE and WE shoot better and at a longer distance? True that. Outriders and DE CB's have the same range. For roughly the same points value, Ouriders wound better if they haven't moved but worse if they have moved. So pretty equal in effectiveness, but the DE CB's will have nearly double the wounds, so the Outriders are quite fragile in comparison.

I think the Outriders should be good in an all-comers list. But against Elfs I can't get them to work.

-Zyg

[madeinitaly1]

If you play against elves you can hide until you get rid of some of their archers, but anyway they shoot better and at a longer distance.

What do you use to get rid of their archers if you keep your shooting out of range or hide it?

You mean HE and WE shoot better and at a longer distance? True that. Outriders and DE CB's have the same range. For roughly the same points value, Ouriders wound better if they haven't moved but worse if they have moved. So pretty equal in effectiveness, but the DE CB's will have nearly double the wounds, so the Outriders are quite fragile in comparison.

I think the Outriders should be good in an all-comers list. But against Elfs I can't get them to work.

-Zyg

Give them other targets like knights or demigryphs while you use magic bolts to hit them

[Zygmund]

Give them other targets like knights or demigryphs while you use magic bolts to hit them

I think if Elf archers have the opportunity to shoot Outriders rather than harder targets, they will.

If my knights or DGK get within charge range of Elf archers, the Elf has played badly or has a nasty surprise waiting. Still, the doomed archers would do well to shoot Outriders if within range.

Magic bolts are always good, of course. But they're not Outriders. Do you mean I should take a L1 or L2 magic missile wizard over an Outrider unit? That's an OK advice, but makes the Outriders look that much worse. 

-Zyg

[The Peacemaker]

I wonder if my all mounted MSU list(or variant)  would be able to take on DE. The plan would simply be to rush opponent. They get 1 round of shooting, maybe 2 if they go first. Then it's a bunch of multi-charges to those long Elf infantry lines with a second wave of MSU waiting to charge the next turn.

MSU really is the way to go with Empire, I don't think Empire shooting is priced effectively nor can we get the needed numbers to shoot.
Use steam tank amd mage and whatever other bit of shooting to simply take out their chaff, get some wounds on their monsters. Whittle down a few models on their bigger units and hopefully multicharge with enough unit strength to break them.

[Skyros]

You forgot the horse attacks on the war alter. We all know as well the horses do more damage.

Nah, I ignored it, just like the engineer's hand weapon attack . Neither is really going to do much against the targets you'd like to smash into with these beasts.

[Skyros]

Furthermore, when a unit gets eradicated, it causes panic withing 6". My opponent has used my Outriders to really put my lines into disarray.

Outriders have Vanguard, so can move out of the way of the rest of your lines at the beginning, giving you some safety, even if the opponent gets firs turn and directs a blizzard of fire at them.

[Warlord]

How do you run your Outriders to get use out of them?

Mine get shot or spelled to oblivion or panic before they can achieve anything much. I'm running two units of four. They need to get within 24" of the enemy, but then have too few wounds to sustain the counter fire. The unit is a prime target for all kind of nagging little things. And I think they're too expensive for a chaff unit to be wasted like that.

That's your problem.
Treat them like you used to Pistoliers. A unit of nilla knights are chaff. Pistoliers were chaff. Outriders can be the same.
Sure, Outriders CAN BE a mobile gun platform, but they don't have to. IMO they should behave like pistoleirs and chaff in the early game. Run interferance, get behind enemy lines, distract. If they get to shoot in a nice position, great. But that is not their primary role IMO. Use their speed to cause trouble. Run ahead with vanguard and marching column to try and look like you are going to find a nice place to sit and blast with them. Force your opponent to react. If the enemy is shooting or magic-ing the outriders, then fine, they are doing their job, and shooting and magic isn't coming at something else.

Remember, Repeater Bolt Throwers can also give knights a hard time too, but obviously don't expose your fast cav too quickly to shooting - all fast cav have this problem. Yes they die easily - so did pistoliers. Thing about how you used to use them - and use Outriders in the same way. In the late game, if they survive and if there is nothing for them to harass or distract, then they can use their guns to sit back and shoot.

They have pistols, BS4, Vanguard and Fast Cav, Fire and Flee - all Fast Cav abilities. Use them as such. Don't get distracted with their repeater handguns. IMO the repeater handguns are actually a bonus, not their primary usage. They are fast cav that just happen to also have repeaters.

[Zygmund]

This is all good advice and well-argumented opinion.

I'm still learning to use the Outriders. Never played with them in any of the previous editions. You're right, they are too fragile (and too mobile) to be used as a stationary shooting unit. Crossbows will serve that tactical role much better.

-Zyg

[Clymer]

I find people don’t put too much effort into my outriders, they’re too preoccupied with everything else that’s far more dangerous: Infantry, griffon, knights, etc. If you want Outriders to be a shooting base, it helps to vanguard up into some woods so that you get the -1 cover benefit. It’s also worth remembering the vanguard move so you can move towards good shooting targets and away from units with superior shooting, or out of a position where they have to suffer overlapping fire.

That said, there’s not much you’ll be able to do with them if you’re up against shooty elves. They are too good a target, and too much of a threat for elves to ignore them for too long.