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Author Topic: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna  (Read 3635 times)

Offline commandant

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Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« on: March 21, 2024, 09:39:29 AM »
I'm playing a 1250 point game against Bertonnia.   My opponent intends on taking this list.

Empire list is updated to be legal.
===
Army of the Duke of Bertonnia [1248 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Kingdom of Bretonnia
===

++ Characters [418 pts] ++

Duke [281 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- General
- Bretonnian Warhorse
- Heartwood Lance
- Gromril Great Helm

Damsel [137 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 2 Wizard
- Warhorse
- Earthing Rod
- Sacrament of the Lady
- Illusion

++ Core Units [467 pts] ++

22 Men-At-Arms [137 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Polearms
- Shields
- Light armour
- Yeoman (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician
- Grail Monk [Blessed Triptych]

6 Mounted Knights of the Realm [165 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- First Knight (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

6 Mounted Knights of the Realm [165 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- First Knight (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

++ Special Units [363 pts] ++

3 Pegasus Knights [186 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- First Knight (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

6 Questing Knights [177 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Great weapons
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Paragon (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

---

My plan is to take an infantry list that is heavy on magic.   

===
New list [1250 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Empire of Man
===

===
New list [1246 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Empire of Man
===

++ Characters [479 pts] ++

General of the Empire [159 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Halberd
- Full plate armour
- General
- On foot
- Bedazzling Helm

Wizard Lord [190 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- Pegasus
- Dark Magic

Wizard Lord [130 pts]
- Hand weapon
- On foot
- Elementalism

++ Core Units [321 pts] ++

23 State Troops [153 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Thrusting spears
- Light armour
- Sergeant (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

9 State Troops [54 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

9 State Troops [54 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

10 State Troops [60 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

++ Special Units [321 pts] ++

Great Cannon [125 pts]

16 Empire Greatswords [196 pts]
- Great weapons
- Full plate armour
- Count's Champion (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

++ Rare Units [125 pts] ++

Helstorm Rocket Battery [125 pts]

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

I'll let ye know how it goes.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 02:47:51 PM by commandant »

Offline Athiuen

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2024, 09:43:21 AM »
Bertonnia and Ernpire

I wonder if you could reduce one of the level 4's to a level 3 and take an engineer.

Also, you're under minimum for core by 22 points.

If it were me I'd drop the second level 4, take a BSB on foot, take an engineer, add another greatsword, and add enough core.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 09:55:30 AM by Athiuen »
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Offline commandant

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2024, 10:58:48 AM »
So I am. I'll fix that.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2024, 12:37:59 PM »
So ... Bert and Ernie are facing off I see. :icon_wink:









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Offline Warlord

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2024, 01:41:50 PM »
A Helblaster is going to be so much more useful against knights and pegasi than a helstorm. If you are already planning on taking an Engineer, its an easy combo. Especially because your infantry and detachments should be able to deal with his infantry no problem with some flanking action.
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Offline commandant

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2024, 02:51:05 PM »
True but I don't have one in my general 1250 points list and I didn't really want to tailor my list to his.

I have cut the level 4s to level 3s in order to make the points.

Basically I want to see if the idea of flying wizards can mess up his day enough.   I figure the infantry should be strong against his infantry and therefore I need to worry about his knights.

His three lances and peggy knights are the things I am really concerned about.   I figure the baron is going in one and the wizard in the other.

Also do people know what happens when a cannon ball goes through a lance.   Does it hit the first knight (which I assume is the baron) or can you angle it to avoid the first knight as I assume he has the ward save.

Offline Dazgrim

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2024, 02:21:11 PM »
They all have a ward save.
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Offline commandant

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2024, 05:10:45 PM »
Blessings of the lady and all that

Offline sedobren

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2024, 11:21:02 PM »
I don't know where on the friendly-comeptitive scale you want your list to be, but i'll give my 2 cents (as a bretonnian player as well).

Your infantry is probably going to be minced by his knights. The big unit of spears might be fine (more on this later) but the small one are goners. He has 4 lances, one of which is pegasus knights which are very strong. The traditional counter to bretonnia is gunpowders, specifically str 4 ashots so the he does not get the better ward save. Most of his stuff is T 4 so you 'll be fine with crossbowmen (the longer range is very nice) and outriders. Outriders in aprticular can do minced meat of his knights, a unit of 5 can easily remove (or reduce to just one or two models) one of his horse lances. The also have fire and flee if you are afraid of being charged (with swiftstride!). The hellstorm is very bad (regardless of the opponent). Use an hellbalster although i always use an engineer with it since you are rolling 3 artilery dice. Mishaps will happen almost every turn.

The wizard on pegasus is extremely, exceedingly good. In my opinion the best lore vs bretonnians is either battle magic or demonology. In aprticualr demonology has the signature lore spell that is an amazing magic missile that hits like a unit of arquebusiers (well, better than them since you don't have to hit). He will do a lot of heavy lifting, possibly being your star player (unless you roll very badly). He also has just a lvl 2 damsel so you have the upper hand in both castng and dispelling. He is absically negating his own spells and burdening himself with the pts for the damesl. The issue with your list is that you do not have cavalry, so he has no units he can hid nearby and he will be targeted!

Speaking of cavalry, the reality is that you need it. You get counter charghe with it vs his, the basic knights are on par with the knights of the realm (roughly). You are going to need them also so that the wizard on pegasus can just hang 3" from them and not be killed.

If you really want to keep you infantry blocks, what i'd do is leave the halberdiers home and use crossbowmen or handgunners (i prefer the crossbowmen, bu either will do), also as detachements if you want but in that case consider smaller units of 5 also so that they can support the spearmen.

They will need all of the help in the world, but if you play you dice right (or put the familiar that lets you pick spells on the wizard) you should be able to cast the hex from demonology on the enemy for -2ld and -2 I, and the N.6 enhancement on your spearmen for +1 to T, M and I, which combined with your +1 ti I from the spear might make your spearmena ctually strike before his charging knights (you 3+1+1=5, him 3+3-2=4)!

Another choice is elementalism with the earthen ramparts spell, which gives a 5+ ward and a low linear obstacle (i.e no I binus when charged) but the daemonology has an overall better use thanks to the signature spell.

If you manage to fork the pts, i'd also either put the general on griffon (the smaller one is fine) or use a bsb captain on griffon (they are both around 250pts with ward saves). they are both amazing, cheap, small monsters that compensate two very lacking combat characters (i mean, he is play a duke that is gonna simply kill him the first chance he has) and are extremely deadly to cavalry, sinche if maneuvered right they will charge on the flank and blunt the lance.

I thought of something like this:

===
empire 1250 [1250 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Empire of Man
===

++ Characters [520 pts] ++

Captain of the Empire [242 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Lance (if appropriately mounted)
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Griffon
- The White Cloak

Wizard Lord [225 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Pegasus
- Armour of Tarnus
- Lore Familiar
- Daemonology

Empire Engineer [53 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Repeater handgun
- No armour

++ Core Units [384 pts] ++

24 State Troops [159 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Thrusting spears
- Light armour
- Sergeant (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

10 State Missile Troops [75 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Crossbows
- No armour
- Sergeant (champion) [Crossbow/Handgun]

6 Empire Knights [150 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Preceptor (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

++ Special Units [226 pts] ++

5 Outriders [101 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Pistols
- Repeater handguns
- Heavy armour
- Sharpshooter (champion) [Repeater handgun]

Great Cannon [125 pts]
- Great cannon
- Hand weapons

++ Rare Units [120 pts] ++

Helblaster Volley Gun [120 pts]

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

Offline Warlord

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2024, 10:43:39 PM »
The list looks fairly solid. Personally I would prefer some chaff to blunt any ‘First Charges’ that their cavalry will have, but its solid.
To my kind, that looks like taking away some spearmen, dropping the standard on the knights, and shrinking the knoghts down, and dropping the champion on outriders to try and find the points for a second unit of knights. Each unit gets close order to their CR, which is more versatile than a standard for combined charges IMO.
I also prefer a musician than a champion on outriders, but thats because I use them like I used to pistoliers nowadays.

But those are just minor tweaks. Its a decent list.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline commandant

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2024, 11:12:19 PM »
I am mostly playing around with the idea of having lots of wizards though so the 2 level three wizards are a must.   I'm trying to see if I can sneak in two level 4 wizards.   This is the core idea of this list.   Taking demonology on one of them might be good.   I like battle lust because of the hatred and extra attacks but maybe striking first is better.

Like the list is going against Bert but it is not tailored for them so much as playing with magic heavy.

I have updated it to replace the Helstorm with the Helblaster.   I'm thinking of dropping it completely to get extra wizarding levels.

Offline sedobren

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2024, 08:00:13 PM »
I am mostly playing around with the idea of having lots of wizards though so the 2 level three wizards are a must.   I'm trying to see if I can sneak in two level 4 wizards.   This is the core idea of this list.   Taking demonology on one of them might be good.   I like battle lust because of the hatred and extra attacks but maybe striking first is better.

Like the list is going against Bert but it is not tailored for them so much as playing with magic heavy.

I have updated it to replace the Helstorm with the Helblaster.   I'm thinking of dropping it completely to get extra wizarding levels.

Both Demonology and battle magic have amazing magic missiles. The demonology one is particularly good since it's the signature spell so you won't miss it, and it's straight up a better version of a unit of handgunners.The whole lore is relatively short range so i suggest a pegasus.

Fireball is also amazing and since it's 24" you should use it on the foot wizard (if you have one).

Just sayin, a lvl4 wizard is already pretty oppressive at 2000 pts, at this lower level can be very devastating. Two of them can be either extremely unfun or you'll roll terribly and do absolutely nothing .

Offline commandant

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2024, 10:41:13 PM »
So I lost again.   It was a lot closer this time.

You are right.   Two level 4 (well I took a level 4 and a level 3) wizards at 1250 points means you dominate the magic engagement.   It wasn't enough to win.

Highlights -

Two lances of knights of the realm combo charged my greatswords.   We ruled that Earthen ramparts didn't deprive them of their lance bonus so the greatswords retreated in good order and then smashed the two lances in the second and third turns of combat.   Only losing the second turn of combat because the duke murderised the poor great sword champion.

I forgot that Earthen ramparts gave the greatswords a 5+ ward though so this could have been important.   I also forgot to fire the cannon on the first turn.   I did fire the helblaster on the second turn and it blew itself up.

The flying wizard blew himself up (1 wound off him) and then later took 7 wounds off the men-at-arms who passed their leadership to panic.

My halberdier unit slapped the men-at-arms around for two turns of combat and then turned to face the questing knights who were coming to support the men-at-arm.   they left their detachment to handle the men-at-arms.   Where upon the detachment missed all its attacks and the men-at-arms merrily charged into the flank of the halberiders (currently engaged in dealing with questing knights) and the questing knights ran them down.

At the end of the bloody mess the empire stood with 1 cannon and 1 flying wizard and the berts had 2 questing knights, 2 peggy knights a damsel, a duke and 6 men at arms.

It was a fairly convincing win in the end for the berts but I do think that flying wizard could have mopped up what was left of the bert army if given enough time, just by flying around and casting magic missile.

I need to get better at using my detachments.   I pushed the greatsword detachments up too far and the peggy knights could charge them.   Not good really.

Offline Athiuen

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2024, 03:31:38 AM »
Did the Helblaster kill something when it blew up, remembering that when it blows up it also fires 30 shots?

Forgetting to use units and take ward saves will understandably hurt your chances.

Always good to just pre-measure the charge ranges of your opponents units so you know exactly how far up you can march.

As for the lance:
Quote
In the tumult of combat, a Lance can become 'blunted'. A Lance becomes blunted if:
    The model at its front cannot make base contact with the enemy.
    It makes a disordered charge
    It is charged by an enemy unit but does not, or cannot, perform a Counter Charge
A blunted Lance immediately reforms to adopt a Close Order
formation, as shown in Fig 111.1 and Fig 111.2. Place a number of models equal to the Lance's number of complete ranks in base contact with the enemy unit that caused it to become blunted, then rearrange the remaining models to maintain a correct close order formation with command models in the unit's new front rank.
The rules for low linear obstacle:
Quote
A unit behind a low linear obstacle can defend it by moving its front rank into base contact with the obstacle. Enemies can charge the defenders as normal but do not have to physically cross the obstacle. Instead, the front rank of a charging unit moves into base contact with the opposite side of the obstacle. Unless it has the Fly (X) special rule, a unit that charges an enemy behind a defended low linear obstacle makes a disordered charge.
Getting that wrong hurt your chances as well.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2024, 03:34:09 AM by Athiuen »
Quote from: warhammerlord_soth
No beer was wasted.
They fired at a can of Heineken.
The end is Neigh!
Quote from: Swan-of-War
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Offline Rodman49

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2024, 03:56:40 AM »
Yeah I agree with @Athiuen - not applying the rules correctly damned your ability to put up a more competitive game.

Having said that:
  • You got to play a game - always a win as you get older and have less time
  • You recognized your mistakes - critical for early improvement
  • Your list seems pretty solid without being oppressive

Offline commandant

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2024, 11:26:45 PM »
Did the Helblaster kill something when it blew up, remembering that when it blows up it also fires 30 shots?

Does it? We used the black powder misfire table on page 229.   Does the helblaster have its own misfire table?   If so I couldn't find it.

Yeah I agree with @Athiuen - not applying the rules correctly damned your ability to put up a more competitive game.

Having said that:
  • You got to play a game - always a win as you get older and have less time
  • You recognized your mistakes - critical for early improvement
  • Your list seems pretty solid without being oppressive

The game was fun.   I'll give it that.   The duel wizards are powerful but I imagine the variance is going to be a bad, depending on what spells are rolled.

Also I think in this edition if you are going to do magic you need to do magic really strongly.   Like I got off a load of spells and the Bert player basically none.

Offline Skyros

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2024, 11:41:41 PM »
The hellblaster has its own misfire rules on its page in the army list (p 72 of Forces of Fantasy)

You DO use the black powder misfire table, but only if you roll precisely two misfire dice. One misfire die, or two misfire dice, have a unique effect detailed in the hellblaster rules.

Offline commandant

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2024, 09:06:28 AM »
Yep. 2 misfires rolled and then a 1 on the misfire chart. It was a fine explosion. Didn't cause panic in ky infantry units though

Offline sedobren

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2024, 10:32:24 AM »
+
Yep. 2 misfires rolled and then a 1 on the misfire chart. It was a fine explosion. Didn't cause panic in ky infantry units though

That is one of the reasons i feel like i always need an engineer with the hellblaster, since it rolls 3 artillery dices, it's three times the chances of a misfire than a cannon.

In any case you made some mistakes, forgot some rules and i feel you could have easily won otherwise. Earthen rampart is very, very strong vs knights, altough maybe not on greatswords since they still strike last. I like it on knightly orders since it does not prevents counter charge. You'll get better as you play more games! I'm still figuring out all of the new interactions with the new rules myself. I think one needs at least a dozen or so games (with the correct rules) to be somewhat confident with his own army.

about blunting the lance, even from the front, it can be devastating to the bretonnian player, since on a small size lance (6-9 knights) he will end up with a front rank of 3, losing two attacking models, and no I bonus. That's even worse if he has a character inside a lance with 3 or less complete ranks (like the 6-9 models one), since by rules you have to put the command group on the first rank, so he will end up with his character(s) in the second rank, withough the ability to fight with it.

Offline commandant

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2024, 01:04:31 PM »
The earthen ramparts blunts the lance. Yes we missed that as well. As you say against greatswords its not such a massive deal as the lances still go first but against the halberdiers it would have been massive. Also given it was 2 lances it would have cost 4 attacks. Though the duke was in one of those lances.

Offline commandant

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Re: Game against the questing horde of Bertionna
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2024, 01:57:15 PM »
I just realized that countercharging detachments will blunt lances. Bert lancea are going to have big problems against state troops so