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Author Topic: Exploiting Flying Columns  (Read 1198 times)

Offline sedobren

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2024, 11:27:31 PM »
The RAI vs RAW debate should be non existent for a game made by a company that has a yearly revenue of half a billion dollars, especially when it just requires an underpaid intern to read the rules a couple of times to find most of the issues with them

You can declare a charge in column formation, you just can't make a charge move.   

Quote from:  Big Rule Book Page 119
  Not all units can charge. Units that are already engaged in
 combat, that are fleeing, or that rallied during the Strategy
 phase of this turn cannot declare a charge or make a charge
 move. Units that are in Marching Column can declare a
 charge, but cannot make a charge move.
In rarer cases, units
 maybe prevented from either declaring a charge, or making a
 charge move, by a special rule or spell effect.

I have always thought that this was an interesting thing to put into the rules.   Like it seems pointless, why would you want to declare a charge when you can't make a charge move.   The answer is because of drilled.   You declare the charge in column formation, use drilled to get into combat formation, then make your charge move which is now legal.

I know the rules, some argue that because as long as you are in column formation the move does not happen, you cannot use the drilled since there is no actual move to redress immediately before.

They could have been explicit and say it in the drilled rule to remove any doubt, it's like one of the only two use of it.

Offline Hoffa

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2024, 12:03:20 AM »
My suspicion is that the play testers assumed that people would read the rules for the meaning they convey instead of attempting to twist advantages out of them.

See here is the problem. I try to avoid twisting advantages out of rules. Problem is that by playing nice and assume that the least beneficial reading (for me) is the correct one I feel screwed out of advantages I think I was ment to have. This griffon banner debate is one example.

But Yes, it is embarrassing how little effort has gone into proofreading the rules for uncovered situations, missing rules and unintended interactions.

I found my self arguing against Rules as Written for this game because of this. 

Does anyone really think that Griffonbanner could be faq:ed to not affect a units max rankbonus? If not, what are we wasting time on?
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Offline xnet445

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2024, 02:34:15 AM »
If a person is going to start changing rules, why not fix the whole book? Change the points too.

...and if we are doing that, why not do it for the whole game?

If if doing it for the whole game, what do we need Gamesworkshop for?

Also you are not changing rules in reality. Warhammer is a very very complex game with a lot of interesting interactions.   It is also written in a clear but not legalistic way.   Therefore the rules need to be read in a clear but not legalistic way.


My suspicion is that the playtesters work to closely with the designers and test RAI and not the actual text written in the books.

My suspicion is that the play testers assumed that people would read the rules for the meaning they convey instead of attempting to twist advantages out of them.


Personally I know who among the regulars at my FLGS are good opponents and those who are hopeless rules lawyer twats and pick my matches accordingly. A very good friend of mine is on the list of those I no longer play against because he is a fun vampire in games but good company outside of one. Anyone who argued that my Griffon banner was functionally a more expensive War Banner would get a congratulatory handshake as I conceded and then be moved to the twat list. I deal with stress and arguments all day in my job, I don’t need it when I am playing with toy soldiers.
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Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2024, 06:33:22 AM »
What if I want to take greatswords in core if I take a General of the Empire as my General?
It looks obvious that they simply forgot to add this, just look at the other army books.

What about a unit of knightly orders in core if Grand Master is General? Or flagellants and warrior priests? Obviously RAI.

Steam tank should be 250pts.

If griffin banner gets special treatment then why not these other ones?

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Offline PowerSeries

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2024, 11:32:44 AM »
Because one relies on reading the text super carefully, and the others do not.

I honestly think my opponent would be surprised to see they broke the Griffon banner by accident and would tell me to knock it off.

But he was also nice and said to go ahead and use the ogre bulls and Mercs since I had pretty models done up for landschekt ogres.

Turns out the rules for that got released afterwards and aligned with what I was doing anyways.  Best possible outcome. 

Offline Dazgrim

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2024, 12:07:44 PM »
another rules issue with op's tactics:
does drilled allow you to charge when in column formation?
The rules allow you to declare a charge, and drilled to redress immediately before moving but does "moving" occurs at all since the column formation prevents you from doing the charge movement?

Riddle me this:
If Drilled doesn't allow you to charge from marching column:
a) why can troops in column declare a charge at all?
b) what possible use is there for marching column?
c) what benefit is there to drilled?
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Offline Dazgrim

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2024, 12:18:06 PM »
Anyways, you were the one to put it in your list in the OP.

I was, and I and my opponents are happy to play with RAI in this case, because the Intent is bleeding obvious, and matches the previous 3 editions.
Just because I intend to play RAI doesn't mean I can't recognise the discrepancy with RAW.

Quote
What else are you going to do with the flying block?  It's still only one unit.

What do you mean what else am I going to do with it? It's a one trick pony, because State Troops are horribly overpriced. I'm not convinced that a combination charge with the knights and halberdiers will win combat sufficiently to break other people's anvils, but I can but try.

I am going to use the list as a gimmicky way to try and use the Empire army in the form I have played it since 5th.
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Offline Hoffa

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2024, 02:13:39 PM »
@The Peacemaker

Because it matters if there is evidence of something being a mistake or not.
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Offline Hoffa

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2024, 02:30:02 PM »


Riddle me this:
If Drilled doesn't allow you to charge from marching column:
a) why can troops in column declare a charge at all?
b) what possible use is there for marching column?
c) what benefit is there to drilled?
[/quote]

a) So that units that are forced to declare a charge by some rule can't avoid it by forming a marching column.
b) Triple movement on march is obviously useful for a unit stranded a long way from the enemy.
c) Redressing for free instead of half movement is obviously useful.
 
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Offline PowerSeries

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2024, 04:15:22 PM »
For a) though you aren't allowed to make a charge move in marching column.  So you get stuck in a declared but immobile state and divide by zero.  It isn't a very good solution.

Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2024, 04:25:11 PM »
@The Peacemaker

Because it matters if there is evidence of something being a mistake or not.
Because one relies on reading the text super carefully, and the others do not.

I honestly think my opponent would be surprised to see they broke the Griffon banner by accident and would tell me to knock it off.

But he was also nice and said to go ahead and use the ogre bulls and Mercs since I had pretty models done up for landschekt ogres.

Turns out the rules for that got released afterwards and aligned with what I was doing anyways.  Best possible outcome.

What I'm getting at is why stop simply at the Griffin banner? Why not make the book better in all the other aspects?

I let my bretonian pals play without taking the 1+ MenatArms/longbows.

And you guys say the griffin banner thing is an obvious mistake. The thing for general type allowing units in core is a pretty obvious mistake too considering most other books have similar roster options. I think most empire players would agree they left it put of the book due to human error(rushed OR incompetence). Why not just add it back in?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2024, 04:28:13 PM by The Peacemaker »
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Offline commandant

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2024, 04:51:23 PM »

@The Peacemaker

Because it matters if there is evidence of something being a mistake or not.

I let my bretonian pals play without taking the 1+ MenatArms/longbows.

Why would you do that? No Bert army has ever been fielded without peasants, it would be incomprehensible to do such a thing. Why would any Bert player want to do that?

They could have been explicit and say it in the drilled rule to remove any doubt, it's like one of the only two use of it.

They can't possibly be expected to think of every nonsense that people trying to break the game will come up with. It is explicitly stated in drilled rule that you use it before moving.
If people think about what is being simulated then these problems go away. What is the drilled rule simulating? Would such a unit be better at forming into combat formation then one that is not drilled? Would such a unit do it faster than one that is not drilled? How is this represented by the rules?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2024, 05:22:59 PM by commandant »

Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2024, 05:08:33 PM »
Age of sigmar let you take whatever units you wanted.
T9A can field brets with no peasants which was HIGHLY requested by the playerbase.
Been a while since I read kings of war books byt Pretty sure they had humN knights with no peasant options.
Been forever since I glanced at Warhammer Armies project so not sure if they had all knights, no peasants.

But to go into your reasoning: what basis would the griffin have from before to work on all ranks when the rules are pretty clear about the rank cap? ...is it because previous editions didn't have that rank cap? ...then why not play those previous editions instead? Or why not borrow more rules changes from those editions too? 

You guys want to do what GW said about "figuring out the rules yourself" but don't like it when others want to figure them out in a different way?
....how do these disagreements get resolved? ...oh, I know! We could all agree to play with a specific set of rules and then write those rules down in a book that can be referenced. That should easily solve disagreements snd let us play a game that we enjoy and focus on the fun parts like strategy and dice rolling and joking around.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2024, 05:12:25 PM by The Peacemaker »
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Offline PowerSeries

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2024, 07:34:34 PM »
Alright alright but this discussion is less exciting than the flying column one we could be having. 

Offline Hoffa

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2024, 07:39:10 PM »
@The Peacemaker.

To answer your question about the Griffon banner. Best argument that something is wrong is the points cost. Rules as written makes it much worse than the war banner for significantly more points. From that it is >99% sure that either the points cost or something in the rules is wrong.

Your argument is that the options are

Take everything exactly as written.
OR
Nothing in the rules matters, remake the game as you please.

I disagree and see no point in further discussion. Lets get back to the flying column.

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Offline sedobren

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2024, 09:45:56 PM »
I don't think anyone here is arguing about how to houserule what is a likely (not obvioust, you can never know with gw) rule void, the issue arise with tournament or event formats, in other words when playing outside your habitual play group.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2024, 12:43:11 AM »
You can declare a charge in column formation, you just can't make a charge move.   

Quote from:  Big Rule Book Page 119
  Not all units can charge. Units that are already engaged in
 combat, that are fleeing, or that rallied during the Strategy
 phase of this turn cannot declare a charge or make a charge
 move. Units that are in Marching Column can declare a
 charge, but cannot make a charge move.
In rarer cases, units
 maybe prevented from either declaring a charge, or making a
 charge move, by a special rule or spell effect.

I have always thought that this was an interesting thing to put into the rules.   Like it seems pointless, why would you want to declare a charge when you can't make a charge move.   The answer is because of drilled.   You declare the charge in column formation, use drilled to get into combat formation, then make your charge move which is now legal.

How would that work with fast cavalry in marching column…. Like pistoliers with inpetuous?
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Offline PowerSeries

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2024, 01:11:57 AM »
Divide by zero.  Undefined behavior.  No rules for this case.

It's unfortunate, but that's what it is.

Offline sedobren

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2024, 10:02:19 AM »
You can declare a charge in column formation, you just can't make a charge move.   

Quote from:  Big Rule Book Page 119
  Not all units can charge. Units that are already engaged in
 combat, that are fleeing, or that rallied during the Strategy
 phase of this turn cannot declare a charge or make a charge
 move. Units that are in Marching Column can declare a
 charge, but cannot make a charge move.
In rarer cases, units
 maybe prevented from either declaring a charge, or making a
 charge move, by a special rule or spell effect.

I have always thought that this was an interesting thing to put into the rules.   Like it seems pointless, why would you want to declare a charge when you can't make a charge move.   The answer is because of drilled.   You declare the charge in column formation, use drilled to get into combat formation, then make your charge move which is now legal.

How would that work with fast cavalry in marching column…. Like pistoliers with inpetuous?

I may be wrong but the marching column formation is infantry exclusive. Still there are impetuous infantry (like orks) that works, as far as i understand it, by declaring charges but being unable to complete the movement thus having a failed charge

Offline Hoffa

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2024, 10:54:39 AM »
Pistoliers in marching column will declare a charge which will automatically be a failed charge. A failed charge is not a charge move so they will make a failed charge as normal.

You can declare a charge in column formation, you just can't make a charge move.   

Quote from:  Big Rule Book Page 119
  Not all units can charge. Units that are already engaged in
 combat, that are fleeing, or that rallied during the Strategy
 phase of this turn cannot declare a charge or make a charge
 move. Units that are in Marching Column can declare a
 charge, but cannot make a charge move.
In rarer cases, units
 maybe prevented from either declaring a charge, or making a
 charge move, by a special rule or spell effect.

I have always thought that this was an interesting thing to put into the rules.   Like it seems pointless, why would you want to declare a charge when you can't make a charge move.   The answer is because of drilled.   You declare the charge in column formation, use drilled to get into combat formation, then make your charge move which is now legal.

How would that work with fast cavalry in marching column…. Like pistoliers with inpetuous?
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Offline commandant

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2024, 12:30:46 PM »
I assume pistoliers in marching column must declare a charge and then can't make it. I assume it counts as a failed charge but I don't know really.

Offline Kippers

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2024, 07:47:31 PM »
I assume pistoliers in marching column must declare a charge and then can't make it. I assume it counts as a failed charge but I don't know really.

I believe you right, but what gets me with this is that the charged unit can then potentially make a stand and shoot reaction without the pistoleers ever getting in to range, which is kind of nonsense.

That being said, light cavalry in marching column with vanguard is also an easy way to get around enemy flanks. After the first turn you can move 8+24” across the board. So if there is space, you can make it past enemy line of sight in the first turn. In the second turn you can then make a 90 degree turn and then start shooting. The problem with pistoleers is that from turn 3 and onwards they are harder to control.
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Offline Hoffa

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2024, 08:11:24 PM »
@Kippers

"I believe you right, but what gets me with this is that the charged unit can then potentially make a stand and shoot reaction without the pistoleers ever getting in to range, which is kind of nonsense."

This can happen on normal charges as well. Empire knights declaring charge near maximum chare and then rolling tripple 1 for the charge will fail charge 1" but still get shoot by short range shooting.
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Offline commandant

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2024, 08:58:22 PM »
Units in Open Formation can make a 90° change at the end of a march can't they?

Offline Hoffa

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Re: Exploiting Flying Columns
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2024, 09:44:34 PM »
Unfortunately no.

"After moving, unless it charged, marched or fled, a unit that is in Open Order formation may pivot about its centre to change its facing by up to 90°."
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