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Author Topic: The Empire in Exile: an approach to TVI via the Bretonnian Exiles army of infamy  (Read 1173 times)

Offline Skyros

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I would at least drop one stone thrower for 10 brigands with blunderbusses and ambush.

Just having ONE unit which COULD pop up anywhere on the battlefield is often worth it for the disruption to your opponents plans.

Note that if you ambush (or vanguard), you cannot charge the first turn, which is a way of granting impetuous units at least one turn of guaranteed shooting.

Offline Dazgrim

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Infantry will and should lag behind cav.

Bert cav are slightly faster than everybody else's but this was always true.

In this edition infantry average a charge of 8.5 and cav average a charge of 15.

Sure they are only averages but the thing is that your cav will fall short as often as go long.

A charge of 17 requires you to roll a 10. Even if you assume average for 1 d6 is 4 (which it isn't) then you stoll have to roll a 6 on 2 d6 to make that charge and that is if there is no wheeling involved.

You can't charge 17" with Empire knights. Their maximum possible charge is 16".

M7 + 9 (maximum possible outcome from a swiftstride charge).
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Offline The Peacemaker

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If you don't like demigryphs and want to take better/cheaper infantry amd cheaper artillery, then Bret Exhiles is the way to go.

MSU tactics work for every army in this edition
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Offline xnet445

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If you don't like demigryphs and want to take better/cheaper infantry amd cheaper artillery, then Bret Exhiles is the way to go.

MSU tactics work for every army in this edition

My copy of the Bret AJ came in this past weekend. I have my old metal Greatswords on the painting table to use as foot knights.
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Offline Clymer

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Wow, lot's of repostes!

First off, I need to tell you that mostly I was just being cheeky with my list. I don't think a massed infantry Empire list will be all that great, nor do I think an Brettonian exiles infantry list will be all that great. I'm just trying to point out that if you want to go that direction, the Empire is not hopeless... at least not anymore that Brettonian Exiles are. The list that I wrote is not something I would run, except maybe in a friendly game or as the core line in very large game, say 3000 to 4000 points.

But to keep the conversation going, here's some reponses:

Exile list doesnt have WS2.

I didn't realize that. Thanks for pointing it out.

And your characters can die to monstrous infantry/cavalry regular dudes,  they are so weak.

They are super weak! But:
- They are no weaker than the OP's paladins in his initial list
- I've never been the one arguing for the self-imposed restriction against demigryph characters, just trying to play by the rules of others here.
- There's plenty of points to be found in this list to toughen them up if you want to, even if you want to leave them on foot.
- As they are, they are weak, and super expendable! When they die, they won't be missed much.
- Characters on foot with only a 3+ armor save are less vulnerable than I think most people realize. My opponent is more likely trying to win the combat than slay characters. Is he going to allocate attacks against my WS5, T4, Sv 3+ characters, or allocated them against my WS4, T3, Sv 6+ infantry? Probably the infantry if he's going for combat resolution. That helps the characters stay safer than you'd think when in an infantry block.

Those detachments are huge. They sre basically units by themselves.

That's the point  :::cheers:::

Shave the parent unit down to 48 and the detahcments down to 24 each, and run them 6 wide in 4 ranks if you'd like. That alone will get you 32 points to shift to characters. Shave the parent down to 40 and the detachments down to 20 and you get another 160 points to shift to characters or whatever and you haven't really diminished the offensive ability of the units, but have sacrficed some survivability.

Sure, as you said, you can pare them all back to more "normal" unit/detachment sizes of 30-ish and 10-15ish. But then your detachments are more like traditional detachments, rather than units in their own right. Which also totally fine, just a different approach than what I was going for. Honestly, it would be more realistic to play the way you describe in a 2000 point game.

@ Clymer
I like your approach but I don't agree with some points, because I think that in TOW a pure TVI cannot be used, especially because the detachments are weakened and the state troops in the (only) three games I played did not prove to be reliable and effective.
The idea of having all stubborn troops is good but the parent unit is too expensive and this betrays the spirit of the TVI which is based above all on the points denial tactic as well as on outnumber the enemy.

Thanks! I agree, TVI is not a viable tactic in TOW. At least not as it was envisioned as an army based around 3 units of 25-30 state troops with detachments trying to win combats on static resolution alone. Even if the rules for countercharging hadn't changed and state troops still cost the same and swordsmen still had a 4+ save, it wouldn't be viable because the environment has changed. Big magic spells, improvements to monstrous mounts and the proliferation of flying units would all have made TVI a non-starter in this edition. It was already dying out towards the end of 7th with the release of Daemons and Dark Elves who could simply dance around it and outshoot it.

Obviously, despite the name I gave it, the list I posted is not a classic TVI list. I just named it that to be consistent with the usage in this and other Brett exile lists/posts that say "TVI" but also are not really classic TVI lists, but give a strong nod towards TVI tactics.

As far as points denial, you may be right; that parent block is not expendable. But to get those points, they will have to do 50 wounds of damage first. Not impossible, but pretty hard to do, I would guess.

For those interested: a more detailed analysis of the TVI tactica can be found here.

Thank you for sharing! This still inspires many, even 20 years later!

One thing I want to point out though about TVI is that it wasn't necessarily, "Here's how you win games with three infantry blocks". It was, "How do I take an army of the seemingly weakest units in one of the weakest armies in the game, and make them effective beyond expectations?"

In that spirit, there is a lot that people can try out that doesn't conform to the classic TVI list design. I actually think the flying halberd column discussed in other threads is a perfect application of this philosophy, even though it's not what we would think of as a classic TVI list. Maybe the all-stubborn infantry line with massive detachments will also find a home. I have no idea and even kind of doubt it, but we'll see.



Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline Contrapèl

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I would at least drop one stone thrower for 10 brigands with blunderbusses and ambush.

Just having ONE unit which COULD pop up anywhere on the battlefield is often worth it for the disruption to your opponents plans.

Note that if you ambush (or vanguard), you cannot charge the first turn, which is a way of granting impetuous units at least one turn of guaranteed shooting.

You are probably right, you know? At first I liked vanilla brigands as war machine hunters and mild disruptors, but now those blunderbusses are growing on me and I think they may be as good as you paint them.

I was struggling to find the points for the unit, but now I think a second trebuchet may not be that important after all. One S5 template (plus the two canons and the magic missiles) may be enough of a threat against most opponents, or in any case a second stone thrower probably doesn't make that much of a difference.

Offline Gorim

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Additional insane (well not insane but very big) benefit / advantage of the exile unit is that you can put the monk in the unit, alongside the champion, which means you have two guys who can throw a challenge against the big enemy. This makes the unit way better. Of course, good enemy should charge the unit with his own chaff unit / something else that also has a champion, so we won't be able to "catch the dragon". But for the cost of the monk, this is still an invisible "super upgrade".

Offline Contrapèl

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One thing I want to point out though about TVI is that it wasn't necessarily, "Here's how you win games with three infantry blocks". It was, "How do I take an army of the seemingly weakest units in one of the weakest armies in the game, and make them effective beyond expectations?"

I guess that is more or less what I'm trying to do here. I don't know if the Bretonian Exiles is one of the weakest armies in the game, but it is probably the one with less elite choices. (The Baron and Hypogryf is fine, I guess, but I can't really think of anything else that I'd call elite. Not that they don't have units that are great for their cost though.) I'm using the term TVI because I intend to adapt TVI-like tactics to modern times, but of course I don't think this is a TVI army in the classical sense.

Offline commandant

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Infantry will and should lag behind cav.

Bert cav are slightly faster than everybody else's but this was always true.

In this edition infantry average a charge of 8.5 and cav average a charge of 15.

Sure they are only averages but the thing is that your cav will fall short as often as go long.

A charge of 17 requires you to roll a 10. Even if you assume average for 1 d6 is 4 (which it isn't) then you stoll have to roll a 6 on 2 d6 to make that charge and that is if there is no wheeling involved.

You can't charge 17" with Empire knights. Their maximum possible charge is 16".

M7 + 9 (maximum possible outcome from a swiftstride charge).

Ahh yes but this tread seems to be mostly about bert, who are movement 8

Offline Dazgrim

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Infantry will and should lag behind cav.

Bert cav are slightly faster than everybody else's but this was always true.

In this edition infantry average a charge of 8.5 and cav average a charge of 15.

Sure they are only averages but the thing is that your cav will fall short as often as go long.

A charge of 17 requires you to roll a 10.
Even if you assume average for 1 d6 is 4 (which it isn't) then you stoll have to roll a 6 on 2 d6 to make that charge and that is if there is no wheeling involved.

You can't charge 17" with Empire knights. Their maximum possible charge is 16".

M7 + 9 (maximum possible outcome from a swiftstride charge).

Ahh yes but this tread seems to be mostly about bert, who are movement 8

That is different to the statement I quoted, emphasised in bold above.

I did a break down of the maths elsewhere, but swiftstride cavalry have about a 40% chance of making a maximum distance charge, which is 16" for Empire knights and 17" for Bretonnians.
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Offline commandant

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Which means that 60% of the time or so Bert Cav move the same or less than in past editions where their charge was 16 inches. If I'm reading you correctly.

Offline GamesPoet

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As an aside ... I recalled that the topic of Bretonnian army list in exile came up previously ...

 https://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=56437.0
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Offline Warlord

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The Empire of Man - [2000pts]

## Characters [470pts]
Captain of the Empire: Hand Weapon, Full Plate Armour, Charmed Shield, Burning Blade
Lector of Sigmar:  Hand Weapon, Light Armour, War Altar of Sigmar, 2x Barded Warhorse, Hand Weapon, Great Weapon, General
Wizard Lord [160pts]: Hand Weapon, Wizard Level 4, Demonology or Dark magic

## Core [576pts]
Empire Knights [116pts]:
• 5x Empire Knight: Barded Warhorse, Barding, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Preceptor
Empire Knights [110pts]:
• 5x Empire Knight: Barded Warhorse, Barding, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance
2x Free Company Militia [175pts]:
• 28x Militia Fighter: Throwing Weapon, Two Hand Weapon, Militia Leader

## Special [461pts]
Empire Greatswords [229pts]:
• 19x Greatsword: Full Plate Armour, Great Weapon, Hand Weapon, Count's Champion, Standard Bearer, Musician
Great Cannon [125pts]: Great Cannon, Gun Crew, Hand Weapon
Outriders [107pts]:
• 5x Outrider: Empire Warhorse, Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Pistol, Repeater Handgun, Sharpshooter: Repeater Handgun, Musician

## Rare [493pts]
Empire Steam Tanks [265pts]:
• 1x Steam Tank: Engineer Commander, Steam Cannon, Steam Gun
Flagellants [228pts]:
• 17x Flagellant: Flail, Hand Weapon, Prophet of Doom

This is an interesting list. However I feel it could probably still be optimised a bit further.
I'm not entirely understanding the Lector on War Altar choice either...

My changes would be:
Swap out the Lector for a General on Griffon with White Cloak and Giant Blade
Put the Captain on a Demigryph, and make him a BSB
Drop the Militia units down to 24 each
Drop the knights down to 4 each, but give each a musician and champion
Drop the outriders down to 4, remove the champion
Drop 1 greatsword

The BSB can join the greatswords, the general goes flying and killing stuff.

Not huge differences, but I like it a little more  8-)
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Offline king ink

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Good suggestions...
The lector on war altar is in the list 'cause i want to prove it on the battlefield and 'cause this is a themed list, something like a popular army (without state troops, with free companies and flagellants) joined by a Templar order and other elite units in a crusade against the evil that threatens the region

Offline sedobren

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Good suggestions...
The lector on war altar is in the list 'cause i want to prove it on the battlefield and 'cause this is a themed list, something like a popular army (without state troops, with free companies and flagellants) joined by a Templar order and other elite units in a crusade against the evil that threatens the region

just fyi, you need to keep the wizard away from the altar, since the -2 to casting applies to your wizards as well. I'm guessing that you won't make the lector a general, since at 12" it is semi doable to keep the wizard away, at 18" it's very difficult.

Offline commandant

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I would consider cutting the free company to 23/24 and using the 8 left over as a detachment for the Greatswords