Topic: Griffons!

[sedobren]

I've been playing some games with a double griffons (the smaller one) cavalry list and since maybe i'll be able to get the bigger plastic griffon i've thought of this:

===
Griffons! [2000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Empire of Man
===

++ Characters [979 pts] ++

General of the Empire [318 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Griffon
- The White Cloak
- Sword of Justice
- Potion of Speed

Captain of the Empire [241 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Griffon
- Enchanted Shield
- Dragon Bow

Wizard Lord [420 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- Imperial Griffon
- Armour of Tarnus
- Mace of Helsturm
- Illusion

++ Core Units [525 pts] ++

10 Empire Knights [273 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Drilled (0-1 unit per 1,000 points)
- Preceptor (champion)
- Standard bearer [War Banner]
- Musician

10 State Missile Troops [80 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Crossbows
- Sergeant (champion) [Crossbow/Handgun]
- Musician

7 Empire Knights [172 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Preceptor (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

++ Special Units [226 pts] ++

Great Cannon [125 pts]
- Great cannon
- Hand weapons

5 Outriders [101 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Pistols
- Repeater handguns
- Heavy armour
- Sharpshooter (champion) [Repeater handgun]

++ Rare Units [270 pts] ++

Steam Tank [270 pts]
- Steam Cannon
- Steam gun
- Repeater pistol

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

It's obviously pretty characters heavy but i've found the new base size a new thing to works around when deploying so having smaller units is nice. It's all cavalry because i like knights and i'm not sold on state troops, while greatswords are special and would not fit within the list. The rest is a pretty standard cannon, steam tank and outriders.

Onto the characters, the mage is the obvious mace illusionist - i went with the armour for defence, i'll risk the dice but i could switch it for the lore familiar; the captain has the griffon for defence and the bow so he can do something while he flies behind the line with his 36" area of rerolls. The general has the sword for some additional killing power. It's not the best on a 3 attacks model, the other option is the sword of battle (removing one potion) which is also very nice.

I don't think all in all is that oppressive of a list, also i like griffons.

[commandant]

I think this list will live and die by the griffons. It has very limited magic defense (1 level 4).

Griffons are good but I think they are more support units than the ability to carry a list alone, though I might be wrong about that.

The doppledanger wizard is really this lists answer to big nasty units but I think that is a risky strat. I think this would be an interesting list to play against with my infantry based army.

I'm not sure what this list does to shift large infantry blocks.

[PowerSeries]

I don't like the sword of justice, stuff with multiple wounds just has too much armor.

[The Peacemaker]

Sword of Justice is ok but I found it too expensive for what it does. And that was on grandmaster with 4 attacks. I'd swap it for a magic weapon that gives more attacks or bitting blade for cheap AP.

If you are looking to optimize:
Put lance on Captain
Drop champ from crossbows.
Outriders down to 4 models.
Drop repeater pistol on stank(unless its filling points).
Split your Knight unit into 2 units of 4 with champion. With 3 griffins you need units to combo charge with the griffins and use the champion to take challenges.

I would personally put white cloak on Wizard because it helps against flaming. And the General the 5++ talisman. But it's a very minor thing and I think it costs more points.

I haven't found magic defense to be much of a problem with this type of list.
When you charge your wizard into something important and enemy wizard is nearby to dispel, be sure to charge their enemy wizard unit with something so it's locked in combat and can't dispel.

[sedobren]

I've had so far a very good experience with magic defense with the empire mages, although i was using the standard wizard familiar/lvl4 mage with +5 to dispel. I've had everything from elven mages to necromancers struggle a lot to cast even one spell. Also having more than one mage does not increase your dispell, although if you have it in melee a second one comes in handy obviously.

I was putting the armor of tarnus on the mage since o was giving all three the 5+  save but i've downgraded the captain's to a 6+ so yes i can save 5 pts with the talisman on the general and the cloak on the mage.

Yeah the sword of justice is not ideal, i sas going for the sword of battle or the ogre blade firs but was lacking the pts, i'll try to refine the units a little so that i can give it to the general. The main draw is the multiple wound (2), intended to meet monstrous cavalry like pegasus knights (the big ones are left to the mage obviously). Another option would be the runefang but 100pts is too much for a weapon like that. It should cost 80 pts at most. The dueling blades are nice but i'd rather keep using the shield with the sword of battle than having another attack.

Regarding large infantry blocks, in my experience you don't need to do anything for them. they are weak from the get go, they die pretty quickly to shooting (and the demonology's signature missile is perfect for them), plus demonology has s very good hex for those (-2ld and -2 I, no inspiring presence) and being super slow i have not seen them as a threat so far. The most dangerous are the shooting types, like 40 lothern seaguards with the razor banner, but even then shooting appears to be severely limited in this edition so they have so far only managed to kill a unit of knights, sometimes (in a similar list without the griffon mage and with more units, although i think the HE player uses them not optimally).

The biggest dangers here would be bolt throwers actually, those are deadly but often the pkayers that i have encountered somewhat discard the griffons as lesser threats compared to the big unit of knights or the outriders. I don't know why but i won't correct them for sure!

[Clymer]

Having run griffins a bunch, including the wizard grifffon, I can tell you this is a fun way to play. Here’s my advice:

- Treat the wizard Griffon as a a self-buffing unit. Illusion is a good lore for this. Focus on maximizing what the Griffon does, instead of trying to support other units with it. He doesn’t even need the mace for Doppleganger to give you impressive results… the sword of might does a great job for a fraction of the cost and doesn’t feel like wasted points if you don’t get the exact right target for it.
- Combo charge the griffons with other units. If you just send in one Griffon, a smart opponent will throw down a challenge and limit you to wounds+5 overkill for combat resolution.
-Don’t forget the knights first charge. Combo with the Griffon to take away static resolution for the first turn.
-think about putting stubborn on the knights so they can hold units in place for the griffons and tank.
- Plan you charge angles with knights and Griffon carefully. If you charge straight on, you’ll over run or pursue to the back of the board and it will take forever for them to rejoin the battle. It’s worth it to feed the units of archers to have them charge at angles and then counter attack at an angle… keep those birds on the board!

[Dazgrim]

I think this list will live and die by the griffons. It has very limited magic defense (1 level 4).

How much counter magic are you bringing in a 2000pt game?

1 level 4 that's planning on getting stuck in is a pretty solid amount of antimagic cover

[commandant]

I'm currently playing with 2 level 4 wizards ar 1250 points. If I make it to 2000 points I think I'll have at least 3, maybe 4. Your level 4 being on a griffon would help though

[The Peacemaker]

Ya, the sword of justice isn't ideal but there isn't much else to replace it with. If no other use for the points then might as well take it and try to hunt down enemy multiwound stuff.

[sedobren]

Thanks for the imputs. Gw's willing i should have the big griffon ready for the end of the month so that i can try the list out!

this is what i reworked:

===
Griffons! [1997 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Empire of Man
===

++ Characters [983 pts] ++

General of the Empire [318 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- General
- Griffon
- Potion of Speed
- Talisman of Protection
- Sword of Justice

Captain of the Empire [245 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Lance (if appropriately mounted)
- Full plate armour
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Griffon
- Enchanted Shield
- Dragon Bow

Wizard Lord [420 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- Imperial Griffon
- Mace of Helsturm
- The White Cloak
- Earthing Rod
- Illusion

++ Core Units [523 pts] ++

5 Empire Knights [128 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Preceptor (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

5 Empire Knights [128 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Preceptor (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

10 State Missile Troops [70 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Crossbows

7 Empire Knights [197 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Preceptor (champion)
- Standard bearer [War Banner]
- Musician

++ Special Units [226 pts] ++

Great Cannon [125 pts]
- Great cannon
- Hand weapons

5 Outriders [101 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Pistols
- Repeater handguns
- Heavy armour
- Sharpshooter (champion) [Repeater handgun]

++ Rare Units [265 pts] ++

Steam Tank [265 pts]
- Steam Cannon
- Steam gun

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

[Athiuen]

If you want to shave a few points off core for elsewhere consider dropping the standards and musicians from the 5 man knights units. Those units are chaff, and the standards are just free points for your enemy. It's also unlikely that they'll need to march past units, as they're there to charge and disrupt.