Topic: Archers and other Chaff

[Skyros]

Unit to unit cross army direct comparisons is not a good way to evaluate the unit.

It certainly is if the units are meant to fight each other (as line infantry is).

That's why I'm always talking about how state troops compare to other line infantry, but I spend much less time talking about how, I dunno, skirmishing empire archer screens compare to the skirmishing archer screens of other armies. Generally skirmishing archer screens aren't going up against each other, and anyway, their role is specialized such that quite a few differences wouldn't matter.

In fact, I'd say that's the absolute best way to evaluate units. You can't evaluate them in a vacuum, you need to evaluate them in context. To know if your light horse archers are any good, for example, you compare them to the light horse archers of other factions. That's because the value of a unit is not inherent, but relative to other units in the game.

[commandant]

Unit to unit cross army direct comparisons is not a good way to evaluate the unit.

It certainly is if the units are meant to fight each other (as line infantry is).

That's why I'm always talking about how state troops compare to other line infantry, but I spend much less time talking about how, I dunno, skirmishing empire archer screens compare to the skirmishing archer screens of other armies. Generally skirmishing archer screens aren't going up against each other, and anyway, their role is specialized such that quite a few differences wouldn't matter.

In fact, I'd say that's the absolute best way to evaluate units. You can't evaluate them in a vacuum, you need to evaluate them in context. To know if your light horse archers are any good, for example, you compare them to the light horse archers of other factions. That's because the value of a unit is not inherent, but relative to other units in the game.

Possibly but you also need to include things like how easy it is to buff the units, how the units impact the action economy, how the units localise force. These sorts of things.

For example there is a constant claim here that men-at-arms are better than state troops (point for point) and I am currently looking at men-at-arms in some detail but the claim always (or often) dismisses that state troops are far superior than men-at-arms at force localisation among other things due to the detachment system.
It also tends to leave out that the Empire state troops have a wider range of buffs available to them compared to men-at-arms (though people are also sleeping on the sergeant-at-arms I think)

[GamesPoet]

They kinda work as detachments of greatswords, getting stubborn. I once deployed 1 unit of 10 archers in front of the unit (geatswords as i said) to absorb the first charge from some HE Dragon princes, and in the end they worked allright for a 35 pts speedbump. You know they don't cause panic since they skirmish, so it's pretty safe to put them there.

The same thing can be done by outriders (fire and flee, skirmishers, they can pass through the unit behind to safety) witha better effect since they have a lot of shots and bs4 - i don't know if they count as msu since they are cavalry and the cost 100+ pts. In this case i'd say put them in front of spearmen since you won't be using stubborn.

I like that last idea!

[sedobren]

They kinda work as detachments of greatswords, getting stubborn. I once deployed 1 unit of 10 archers in front of the unit (geatswords as i said) to absorb the first charge from some HE Dragon princes, and in the end they worked allright for a 35 pts speedbump. You know they don't cause panic since they skirmish, so it's pretty safe to put them there.

The same thing can be done by outriders (fire and flee, skirmishers, they can pass through the unit behind to safety) witha better effect since they have a lot of shots and bs4 - i don't know if they count as msu since they are cavalry and the cost 100+ pts. In this case i'd say put them in front of spearmen since you won't be using stubborn.

I like that last idea!

it's one way of safely use fire&flee since you discard one dice, so as long as you are only 3-4" from the unit behind (1 dice + 1 dice from swiftstride) you are safe - fleeing units have to clear units they end up within so they would come out on the back of the unit behind.

Mind that it does not work well with knights since if the enemy manages to redirect the charge vs the knights behind your knights cannot counter charge. You could try to play on edge of the trick by putting the knights some 6-7 inches behind the outriders so that the enemy will likely fail to redirect because your unit is too far, it's risky though because you can absolutely roll less than 6 or seven on three dice.


i may be wrong here, i checked counter charge and redirecting charges on the rulebook and there are no mentions of specifically not being able to counter charge, just that it cannot stand and fire.

[Dazgrim]

Possibly but you also need to include things like how easy it is to buff the units, how the units impact the action economy, how the units localise force. These sorts of things.

For example there is a constant claim here that men-at-arms are better than state troops (point for point) and I am currently looking at men-at-arms in some detail but the claim always (or often) dismisses that state troops are far superior than men-at-arms at force localisation among other things due to the detachment system.
It also tends to leave out that the Empire state troops have a wider range of buffs available to them compared to men-at-arms (though people are also sleeping on the sergeant-at-arms I think)

You keep talking about action economies, but I don't think it's a concept that translates to an I go/you go system.

The sergeant-at-arms suffers as does the grail monk from being very squishy and any halfway competent opponent will target them and kill them in short order.

It's been demonstrated in a couple of places that men-at -arms and particularly the ones from the border princes are able to put fight an equal value of empire state troops.

Buffs are a factor, but they should be priced into the unit that provides the buff, not the recipient. Otherwise you are overpaying if you don't have the buff.

[Warlord]

I disagree that ‘if you can buff a unit’ plays into its utilisation and cost.
Spells, character abilities, etc usually (USUALLY) are not a direct line to a unit’s success, but rather costed into the unit providing the buff, not receiving it.

[Sir Falo]

Archers are amazing. I use 3 regiments of 5 man as a screen in front of my army. They are Vanguard so you always get them in front. They are great as "deployment delayers" So I see were the enemy wants to attack. How I use them depends on the enemy.

If I face an aggressive enemy I use them so I can get charges with my state troops or knights (they are great with State troops with Halberds and a General on Demigryph).

If the enemy if Defensive/shooty I use them as cannon fodder so my important regiments don't take as mutch damage.

[GamesPoet]

Archers are amazing. I use 3 regiments of 5 man as a screen in front of my army. They are Vanguard so you always get them in front. They are great as "deployment delayers" So I see were the enemy wants to attack. How I use them depends on the enemy.

If I face an aggressive enemy I use them so I can get charges with my state troops or knights (they are great with State troops with Halberds and a General on Demigryph).

If the enemy if Defensive/shooty I use them as cannon fodder so my important regiments don't take as mutch damage.

I love positive and creative view points, congrats!

And go get 'em!

 - - - - - -

Empire for the win!  

[PowerSeries]

So, how do you exactly use archers as chaff?  I'm having a hard time with them getting in the way of my own charges of the enemy doesn't charge them, and since they are skirmishers, I can't really redirect the enemy to the side they they just overrun into me if they do charge.

Honest question, I want to play better.

[Footpatrol2]

It really depends on what kind of army your bringing. If your bringing a shooting army the enemy will want to get in combat asap.

Sometimes I'll take scouting 5 man archers to gum up the midfield to allow for more rounds of shooting. That only really buys you one more turn of shooting. Scouting archers will also make your opponent to possibly make deployment mistakes. Be careful thou on scouting archers on where you place them. It can work against you vs a fast opponent and slingshot them. Scouting at hers will allow you to threaten warmachines/make the opponent test for March blocking which is good on the flank.

[PowerSeries]

Yeah I could use scouts to bait the enemy wild riders and get them to overrun into a trap.  That worked great.

But suppose I'm facing bretonions with Knights and men at arm's.  We both have some shooting, and the archers also have stubbord since they are a detachment of my great swords.  If I put them in front of the great swords, it will eat the first charge, but will also allow them to charge from further away.  And they have the option of not charging, which would leave my archers blocking my great swords, so I can't charge either.

[Warlord]

Don’t worry about archers not being charged and blocking your units. You are actually in control, and the enemy won’t do that for too long - just ensure the flank action goes your way so the opponent wants to get to you before you instead flank him.

[Sir Falo]

So, how do you exactly use archers as chaff?  I'm having a hard time with them getting in the way of my own charges of the enemy doesn't charge them, and since they are skirmishers, I can't really redirect the enemy to the side they they just overrun into me if they do charge.

Honest question, I want to play better.

Well it depends on whats in front of you. But I play to have them 5-7" in front of my regiments. Then when the enemy charges them I normally run. Then the enemy have to move their full charge move, and that means they dont reach my line behind them. So then I just charge them. Back because they stop right in front of me. If my archers are in the way and I want to charge I dont use my General Ld, so they only rally on a Ld of 6. And fleeing moves before charges.

If they are very fast I move up and stand strait in front of them, so the Overrun have a Hard time reaching me.

And even if skirmishers are not fantastic redirectors, the enemy have to move tha fastets route, so in some cases you can, but its not really that important.

[sedobren]

So, how do you exactly use archers as chaff?  I'm having a hard time with them getting in the way of my own charges of the enemy doesn't charge them, and since they are skirmishers, I can't really redirect the enemy to the side they they just overrun into me if they do charge.

Honest question, I want to play better.

Depending on what unit you need to absorb, and on what unit they are a detachment of, the standard idea is to put them in front (4"-5") of your unit, say a block of spearmen, covering the whole front, in skirmish formation.

This way you have 3 different options when they are charged:

1-stand and shoot. This is in particular useful when they get stubborn from being a detachment of a greatsword unit (or any veteran state troop with the banner that gives stubborn). If they are wiped out it is what it is, but if they survive, they can FBIGO automatically.  It's not imho the best usage of a chaff archer unit, since their point is to have the enemy make a failed charge thanks to running away, so that you can charge them back the next turn. It is useful if you need to make the enemy unit waste spacial rules like first charge that only happens appen the first charge (or combat) of the game but keep in mind that this makes you vulnerable to ovverruns (i.e. the enemy unit charging again). If you out your archers very close to their parent unit, like 1", the enemy unit might get a very small I bonus from the overrun. Still they get to use their lances and whatnot, so you need to build this "trap". Earthen rampart from the elementalism lore is a useful spell in this case.

2-Run away. It's pretty straightforward, you don't get to use their bows but you still use archers because they are the cheapest unit around that can skirmish. The flee movement is 2d6, so 7" on average so even outting them 5"-6" in fron of their parent unit should be enough to cause a failed charge, while at the same time the enemy unit will move the whole charging distance (not just the higher d6) because the failed charge was caused from the target fleeing. This is the best usage if you want to the. charge the enemy unit in the next turn, since it will probably be pretty close to yours.

3-Fire and flee if you buy it. It's basically both of the previous options, you get to shoot and flee afterwards. The main issue, when use with infantry, is they they will flee only the highest of 2d6, so let's say aroun 4" in average, and putting your parent unit only 4 inches behind the archers might not be enough to prevent the enemy from redirecting a charge to the unit behind. That said there are a couple of tricks that a skirmishing unit can use here, for example you could put a couple of your archers each 1" towards your unit behind, so that while the fron of the archers is 5 or 6" in front of the parent unit (or simply the unit behind) the rear-most archer models are only 3 or 4 inches. Since units flee directly from the charging unit, the rear-most archers will end up within the unit behind more easily, thus forcing the fleeing skirmishing archers to pass entirely through the unit behind them until they clear it on the other side.

The last one works better with outriders, since they have swiftstride and can use it to flee 2d6 even if they fire and flee (technically they flee 2d6 discard lowest+1d6 from swiftstride).