The Special Character Updating Time.

MagicJuggler · May 12, 2009, 10:40:06 PM

Hello there. Empire was written at a time when Special Characters were an exception to the norm and were generally overcosted for what they did. With the recent batch of codexes however, they've become an increasingly common part of armies, most likely the result of GW saying "hey, dat Warmusheen game has speshul characturz". So now comes the issue of updating the current ones for a new edition. Don't have any fine-tunings yet but I can consider baselines for assorted characters.

Karl Franz: Compare to Malekith/Arachon/etc...is cheaper but still somewhat overcosted for his leadership ability. The loss of dispel dice is nasty too.
Kurt Helborg: Put up against a fight with Crone Hellebron...its not pretty. And Crone is only 25 pts more. Valika is another character.
Balthasar Gelt: Compare with Teclis, Vilitch, or Morathai. Somewhat overcosted for a prancing pegasus...

Alternatively...bring back Gormann damnit!

ZehKaiser · May 12, 2009, 11:05:23 PM

Should make the Ghal Maraz be a magic weapon or a runic weapon again. Also make it like it was during SoC, it is in its weakest incarnation currently. In 5th and before it made KF have all 10's for stats for one turn (He was temporarily possessed by Sigmar), and in 6th/SoC it was all hits auto-wound, no saves, D3 wounds, AND +2A. It needs +2 attacks back.

Michael W · May 13, 2009, 01:39:53 AM

Actually, the old all-10's thing was just a Karl Franz power. Ghal Maraz at the time was a Runefang with +2 attacks.

Either way, yes, it needs some punch added to it. Karl could use the Armour of Magnus or whatever it was called back, too.

Uryens de Crux · May 13, 2009, 10:12:48 AM

Option #1 Get rid of all special characters in all army books, hateful things imo. But thats not going to happen...

Option #2. Ghal Maraz is a weapon of epic legend and power and should reflect that, also it should be more like a runic weapon I think.

In addition, in WFRP (Empire in Flames) it also caused fear/terror in Orcs and Goblins, it should definately have this again I think.

Mogsam · May 13, 2009, 11:23:45 AM

O&G would never remember that event.

Mogsam

Uryens de Crux · May 13, 2009, 11:31:43 AM

Quote from: Mogsam on May 13, 2009, 11:23:45 AM
O&G would never remember that event.

Mogsam

It was a magical effect of the weapon, not their own remembered history IIRC.

Seriously though, given the fluff Ghal Maraz is akin to the Spear of Desitiny, Excalibur et al. Its a true weapon of epic legend from the dawn of the Empire, it should kick ass in major ways all round.

Hits on a 2+
Wounds on a 2+
No AS or Ward Save (its a divine weapon after all)
Double damage against undead & demons.
Causes fear/terror in O&G
All Empire troops in 12" become stubborn.

t12161991 · May 13, 2009, 06:35:22 PM

Roll to hit as normal. Auto wounds. No armor or regen saves. d3 wounds. successful ward saves must be rerolled.

I think that's fine for the weapon.

the stubborn can be a KF special rule.

Toro_Blanco · May 15, 2009, 06:05:52 AM

I think if we tweak Karl Franz and Ghal Maraz, we should discuss the point cost of said proposed changes.

I mean, what's the value on making so many units stubborn, or wielding such an epic weapon? Surely not a mere 30 points more than a ::snickers:: runefang.

Shadowwolf · May 18, 2009, 02:13:59 PM

I'd like Gormann :-) I still have his rules somewhere....

Shadowwolf

Adrian · June 07, 2009, 10:53:31 AM

Also luthur huss should get a point cost reduction and one more attack in his stats.

caledorsbane · June 07, 2009, 03:11:13 PM

I agree that all special characters are overpriced. Also, looking at the volume of special characters in other books, we nned more, such as Marius Leitdorf (it's pretty obvious that with a new model he'll be in the new book). Maybe even special units such as the Carroburg Greatswords.

Uryens de Crux · June 07, 2009, 10:48:37 PM

Can we not just get rid of special characters? Seriously? Or are we blindly walking back into the abortion that was Herohammer?

Toro_Blanco · June 08, 2009, 12:07:14 AM

<stumbles through room blindfolded> What was that? I'm busy tweaking Luthor Huss...

Nicholas Bies · June 08, 2009, 09:20:25 AM

Well following current trends, we should have a few characters which are unit upgrades,

Like a Greatsword Captain that can be chosen instead of an Electors Champion.

A special engineer that can be given to an upgraded warmachine etc.

MagicJuggler · June 08, 2009, 02:31:50 PM

Perhaps we could make Albrecht Hoefner a special character. As a greatsword Champion but S4, T4, and has a ward save to represent his raw badassness...

sniperjolly · June 11, 2009, 01:33:39 AM

who EVER uses that one WAltar/AL SC? Volkmar? Compared to a normal AL he is pretty useless. Does Marius Lietdorf even have rules anymore? They went out with the old GW site, right? I miss the days of frenzy doubling attacks, 7 runefang attacks made him completly worth it. (EDIT: ooh! ooh! Idea for fixing Volkmar! That and maybe real regen) I think that all the SC's on the old website should be revived, with logical pts cost, of course, the old electors, the many faces of valten, (it works with manfred, right?) gortex+felix, and Gormann. Dunno what to do about shwarzhelm though.

MagicJuggler · June 11, 2009, 06:14:02 PM

Fran Meikle:

Engineer stats. Equipment: Brace of Repeater Pistols, Light Armor
Special Rules:
Fusilade:
Prototype Robo-Horse. Like a mechanical steed except it does D6 S5 impact hits.

Nuff said. :P

Victor · July 07, 2009, 07:32:40 PM

One problem with the Empire Special Characters is, that they suffer from bad survivability compared to other races SCs or even normal tooled up empire Generals/Grandmasters/Arch Lectors.

Can the Emperor himself not afford some decent magic armour or what? Why does Kurt Hellborg not use a shield? etc.

patsy02 · July 18, 2009, 02:40:21 PM

Remove every special character from every single army book. Put all of them in an individual book all on their own, treat it like a supplement.

Freman Bloodglaive · August 05, 2009, 08:16:41 AM

I've just ordered the Valten, Champion of Sigmar, who I plan to use as Karl Franz on warhorse with Ghal Maraz. 401 points is a hefty chunk it must be said, but at 3000 I'd say it's affordable.

I think that reducing Karl's basic cost by about 50 points, and increasing the cost of Ghal Maraz by 50 and adding back the +2 attacks would be balanced enough.

I think a unit with 2+/4+ save and 6 attacks that auto-wound, ignore saves, inflicting D3 wounds is worth 400 points. Potentially he could kill a Bloodthirster in one round. However I think that making his save 1+/4+ whatever mount he's riding would be the best option.

wissenlander · August 08, 2009, 01:18:36 PM

Quote from: patsy02 on July 18, 2009, 02:40:21 PM
Remove every special character from every single army book. Put all of them in an individual book all on their own, treat it like a supplement.

I like that idea, actually. It caters to both crowds then.

Dunrik · August 23, 2009, 06:02:57 PM

Quote from: patsy02 on July 18, 2009, 02:40:21 PM
Remove every special character from every single army book. Put all of them in an individual book all on their own, treat it like a supplement.

And thus will need the opponents approval.

patsy02 · August 23, 2009, 06:09:31 PM

Indeed. I have it all figured out you see. :wink:

der Hurenwiebel · August 23, 2009, 07:47:54 PM

I've toyed with the idea that no single model may cost more than 10 % of the army total. This would restrict many of the goofy vampire builds and special characters to the BIG games, and encourage armies rather than super elite body guards.

Boldrick · August 23, 2009, 08:00:22 PM

Quote from: der Hurenwiebel on August 23, 2009, 07:47:54 PM
I've toyed with the idea that no single model may cost more than 10 % of the army total. This would restrict many of the goofy vampire builds and special characters to the BIG games, and encourage armies rather than super elite body guards.

You are basicly saying that we can't have giants on 2k games? :icon_mrgreen:

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The Special Character Updating Time.