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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Chariot smashing
« Last post by commandant on Today at 04:00:49 PM »
Can you still target a gor so you overshoot into the chariot
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In the case if scenario 1 it would depend on what the units that charge the parent are but I imagine that you throw both the detachments in anyway. 16 extra attacks at I6 can't hurt.

If the two units charging the parent unit are wide enough that neither detachment can reach a flank then that is annoying but it is likely the two detachments are bring more attacks to bear.

An example of this would be if both men-at-arms unit decided to charge the parent.   In that instance both detachments go into the front most likely. However 2 bert men-at-arms units (even deployed 6 wide) only produce 18 attacks where as the parent + detachments produce 23 attacks (16 of which go at the same time or before the berts).
Also be men-at-arms will have to direct some of the attacks onto the detachments which helps preserve the men in the front rank of the parent unit and preserve their attacks.

In this first case the question must also be asked what the relative value of the two units charging the parent is? They have to have a combined value of less than 255 points before committing them to defeating the parent unit doesn't create a point imbalance somewhere else on the battlefield.
If they have a combined value of 255 points or less I think it is likely that  it will struggle with the 16 WS 3 Str 4 attacks that the detachments bring.

In the case of scenario 2 there was a discussion of what types of units could achieve this combined assault.
However my conclusion was that you needed swiftstride at least in order to do this and any units that have swift stride are more expensive, sometimes greatly so. This should also create a resource imbalance on the battlefield.
My question is what are you sending at the detachment that can make a legal charge without being within 4-5 inches of the parent unit on my turn and costs less than 64 points

A large part of this is that the unit itself is reasonably cheap at 255 points. Locks down a large part of the battlefield at 2 feet wide and poses a problem for you enemy that he needs to deal with.

If its only result is that it occupies more points then it costs in dealing with it then that is a win for it.

Furthermore, in many years it has almost never happened that detachments be able to charge the enemy's flank because my opponents are expert players and because a detachment 6" behind the front of the parent unit and within 3" cannot find itself on the flank of the enemy unit.

Remember that it needs to be within 3 inches of any part of the parent unit and the parent unit is 4 inches deep. Also the charging unit had to align to the fighting rank of the parent unit. You just need to set it up so you are in the flank of the fighting rank of the parent unit, which you can do with premeasuring and you are in the flank of the charging unit.
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I appreciate you trying to make detachments work.

But I still remain unconvinced that Empire state troops are fairly costed for what they actually bring to the table.

I'm going to throw some spanners into the gears and see what your responses are.

First, to make things clear:

1. Detachments declare their supporting actions after the parent declares their charge reaction (unless the parent flees).
2. Detachments make their counter charge at the end of the charge moves sub-phase, after all other charges moves have been completed.

The scenarios:

1. What happens if the enemy har multiple units and decides to charge them both into the parent?
2. What happens is the enemy has multiple units, at least one of which can declare a legal charge against the detachment?

Both of these scenarios are entirely feasible under normal game play.

The idea with detachments is really cool, but I feel that the execution of this is lacking. When reality hits the ideal scenarios are very hard to achieve, if even possible to begin with.

Will I use detachments? Yes, probably, but mostly to get smaller units of shooting as it halves the minimum unit size.

I agree.
Furthermore, in many years it has almost never happened that detachments be able to charge the enemy's flank because my opponents are expert players and because a detachment 6" behind the front of the parent unit and within 3" cannot find itself on the flank of the enemy unit.
This was possible in 7th edition only when the detachment could charge the opponent's flank if it had just a clear line of sight.
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Battle Lust Madness
« Last post by king ink on Today at 02:27:14 PM »
A hero with frenzy doesn't grant it to the unit does he? That would be silly

No.
Parent Unit confers Frenzy, Hatred (X), Immune to Psychology and Stubborn special rules onto its detachments whilst they are within 3", but a hero can't grant frenzy to the unit under his command.
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I appreciate you trying to make detachments work.

But I still remain unconvinced that Empire state troops are fairly costed for what they actually bring to the table.

I'm going to throw some spanners into the gears and see what your responses are.

First, to make things clear:

1. Detachments declare their supporting actions after the parent declares their charge reaction (unless the parent flees).
2. Detachments make their counter charge at the end of the charge moves sub-phase, after all other charges moves have been completed.

The scenarios:

1. What happens if the enemy har multiple units and decides to charge them both into the parent?
2. What happens is the enemy has multiple units, at least one of which can declare a legal charge against the detachment?

Both of these scenarios are entirely feasible under normal game play.

The idea with detachments is really cool, but I feel that the execution of this is lacking. When reality hits the ideal scenarios are very hard to achieve, if even possible to begin with.

Will I use detachments? Yes, probably, but mostly to get smaller units of shooting as it halves the minimum unit size.
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Re: Chariot smashing
« Last post by Voltan Ignatio on Today at 01:22:42 PM »
Dragon bow captain should be pretty good. Am taking one to my game and can report back
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Does anyone know if the 30x60 bases have slots?
Yes, they have slots.
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All i want is Men-at-arms.
Are they available separate?

P.S I used to sell nerdy stuff online. I'm tempted to make a pun about He-man's friend
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Thanks a lot for this write up, it articulates a lot of what I have been thinking also. Appreciate you explaining it clearly.
I have a 1500PT game Vs Chaos on Friday and want to try this out, keen to see your 1250pts list.
One of my reflections on supporting/supercharging this approach is the use, or not of a wizard. Many games reports até showing the points investment in a L4 not having as big of an impact as hoped, although I agree with your assessment of Dark Magic and its strengths. However, adding one seems to doubke the cost of.our core to get it to take off. At this point more points in special/rare may he better
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The Old World Cometh Again !!! / Empire Themed Bretonnian-Exiles List
« Last post by Minsc on Today at 12:23:52 PM »
The talk about the Bretonnian Exiles army of infamy-list in the "Is Empire Bad"-topic made me curious about it, and I ended up doing a "Empire-themed" (read: infantry-themed) list around it.
Coincidentally, GW made alot of "Representing this unit in your games"-texts in their Arcane Journal for Brets, and they are all more or less various Empire units.

How do people think this would fare in comparison to a similar pure Empire-list?

-Lords & Heroes-

Baron - 195 pts (General)
Exile's Vow, Heavy Armour, Lucky Heirloom, Frontier Axe, Potion of Speed, Virtue of Purity.
(5+/5++, attacks with S6 AP3 MW(2). Has one re-roll to hit/wound or save per round.)

Baron - 347 pts
Barded Hippogryph, Exile's Vow, Heavy Armour, Shield, Gromril Great Helm, Sword of Might, Virtue of the Penitent
(2+ rerolling 1'. Is basically an Unbreakable flying beatstick to tie up and slowly stuff you don't want hitting your infantry.)

Paladin - 163 pts (BSB)
Exile's Vow, Heavy Armour, Shield, Morning Star, Errantry Banner, Talisman of Protection, Virtue of the Impetuous Knight.
(4+/5++. Gives Impetuous but also +D3" charge and +1S on the charge to his unit.)

Outcast Wizard - 120 pts
Level 3, Flamestrike Wand.

-Core-

20x Knights of the Realm on Foot - 258 pts (Baron here).
Exile's Vow, Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons.

20x Knights of the Realm on Foot - 258 pts (Paladin here).
Exile's Vow, Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons.

36x Yeomen Guard - 198 pts
Full Command, Light Armour, Shields, Spears or Halberds.

35x Yeomen Guard - 193 pts (Outcast Wizard here - potentially.)
Full Command, Light Armour, Shields, Spears or Halberds.

-Special-

3x Pegasus Knights - 172 pts
Exile's Vow, Champ.

5x Squires - 35 pts

-Rare-

6x Questing Knights - 163 pts
Questing Vow, Champ.

10x Brigands - 97 pts
Blunderbusses, Shields, Skirmish, Champ

1x Bombard - 100 pts

1x Bombard - 100 pts

1x Field Trebuchet - 100 pts

(I'd consider dropping the Questing Knights in favour of more Brigands and some Peasant Bowmen. They don't really fit into the theme of the list.)

- - - - - - - -

Quick Info:
An Exiles army can't pray so have no wardsave from Blessing of the Lady, but regain it when they overrun or catch a fleeing enemy.

Exile's Vow = Veteran, Stubborn, Ignores panic from Peasantry/Levies.

Knights of the Realm on Foot are basically Veteran Greatswords with Furious Charge and Heavy Armour instead of Plate and Detachment.

Yeomen Guard are basically State Troops but 2 ppm cheaper and has Horde, Shieldwall, Veteran and Warband instead of Detachment ( :icon_rolleyes:).

Edit: Cheers mod for making this it's own topic.
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