Topic: 8th Edition Revisions. 3 Suggestions per man.

[Warlord]

3) Counter-Charge as a Charge Reaction.  If the charged unit passes a Leadership test, that unit can Counter-Charge the unit charging it. ))

I like that one!

[emcdunna]

I really don't like how leadership works in this game.

Your unit's discipline, courage, and resistance to evil are basically all represented in one stat.

Let me describe my meaning: you have to pass a Leadership check to quick reform, but that has nothing to do with courage. An orc unit may be brave but they are very disorganized.

Skaven are cowardly but they aren't all that disorganized. They would easily be able to scurry into a new formation.

Also, why should doom and darkness make my savage orcs more likely to fail a frenzy check? They are sad and scared, not more disorganized.

In my rules overhaul game i'm implementing another leadership-like characteristic called "discipline". This concept is similar to the old 3rd edition warhammer stats I believe, as each unit had like 3 different leadership-like stats.

[Deuce]

Depending on interpretation, they had four in 3rd ed: Leadership, Intelligence, Will Power and Cool. I think an argument could be made for splitting out "discipline" and "courage" (i.e. Leadership and Cool) into separate stats, but I think three or four really is overkill and I don't think the game was substantially the poorer for removing them: after all in many battlefield situations the distinction between the effects of courage and discipline is pretty fine, and a sufficiency of one can compensate for a dearth of the other.

There are always going to be oddities, like the savage orc frenzy thing, but I think those would exist no matter the complexity of the ruleset, unless you have a much larger profile which soon becomes unwieldy. It's probably better to modify them on an individual level (e.g. Frenzy is always tested against an unmodified Ld, or "this spell has no effect on Frenzy") than to start trying to introduce elements into the core rules to correct for them.

[The Peacemaker]

   Hey mr chumley warner

I posted my North American Comp rules for revised 8th edition.

I like alot of the suggestions in here. Although most are too drastic a change for a revised edition but certainly good for a 9th edition.

[emcdunna]

I was considering frenzy (and also arrogance, stubborn, panic, etc.) to all be tested against discipline.

Arrogance is gonna be an rule that also makes you do something you may not want to (similar to frenzy).

Stubborn in my mind is going to help you with courage tests but you have to pass a discipline test in order to flee a charge.

I absolutely hate panic in this game. Losing a whole unit because of it is the worst.
I would have panic tests work against discpline, but if you fail you don't flee, instead you "falter". Faltering units cannot charge, march or shoot that turn.

[Ludwig von Blucher]

While it's slightly off topic (sorry) why the hate for Chaos Dwarves? I loved loved loved them in 6th, and thought they were pretty cool in 8th...

[jack]

1 not having to accept challenges from lesser models;Lord can disregard hero and champion,hero can disregard  champion.with no repecussions.

1a Challenges happen "ethereally " , so that they don't block models from fighting.

2 put the terror back in fear and terror:Inspiring presence and BSB rerolls negate psych to the point where  the premium that you pay for a terror producer is negated.

3 ditch pre-measuring,especially for warmachines[Dwarven cannons premeasuring and rerolling is just sick

[RE.Lee]

1) Combined profiles for ridden monsters - best of W, T, AS, ward save.
2) Ward saves for cover, instead of  to hit modifiers. Could be varied depending on terrain, or just 5++ across the board to keep things simple.
3) No move-or-fire for infantry. Give those handguns a break.

This is what we'll be trying in our games in the near future.

[emcdunna]

I want handguns to not be move-or-fire but instead have random range:

Handgun, S4, AP2 (-2 to armor), range 18 + d6"

It would work like this..

A 10 man unit equipped with handguns is shooting at an enemy unit that is 22 inches away. It needs to roll a 4 or more on the range dice for each shot to be within range. The unit rolls 10 dice and 6 of them are 4 or higher. This means 4 shots fell short and are wasted. However if the target had been 16 inches away, they would not need to roll for range as all shots are automatically within range.

[Reiksguard 1485]

Chaos Dwarfs are awesome! Loved their background with the Dark Father Hashut etc.

1. Cavalry. On the turn they are charged by cavalry, any horde cannot benefit from the steadfast rule. In addition, charging cavalry with lances always strike first with +1A, taking priority over even other units with ASF (except pikes).

2. Dogs of War. Any army may take Dogs of War as part of the Rare allowance. These may be chosen from the 6th Edition Dogs of War and Regiments of Renown Lists, including later additions (such as the Manflayers, Johann and Wilhelm, Armoured Orcs, Cursed Company etc), Storm of Magic or Ogre Kingdoms. NB pikes are as spears but fight in a further +1 extra rank, when charged gain ASF and against cavalry have +1S. Pike armed units may never pursue under any circumstances.

3. Army Organisation. Allies: Up to 25% of the total points allowance may be spent on allies, consulting the allies matrix (available in various places). These must include at least one hero, and may include one battle standard bearer. Other regiments may freely be chosen from any section of the relevant army list. In addition to the Allies allowance, all lists from Storm of Chaos and End Times are game-legal. 

[Ambrose]

Witch Hunter on a horse!  This is army specific but come on man, this should have been added at the beginning....

[Warlord]

2. Dogs of War. Any army may take Dogs of War as part of the Rare allowance. These may be chosen from the 6th Edition Dogs of War and Regiments of Renown Lists, including later additions (such as the Manflayers, Johann and Wilhelm, Armoured Orcs, Cursed Company etc), Storm of Magic or Ogre Kingdoms. NB pikes are as spears but fight in a further +1 extra rank, when charged gain ASF and against cavalry have +1S. Pike armed units may never pursue under any circumstances.

Did you know that Ruglud's Armoured Orcs are a war scroll in AoS?

[Vietnow]

I first got the 4th ed starter set when I was about 10 years old, although I'm not sure how old I was when it came out.

I remember several things about said edition which I feel could be fun.

1.  More equipment options for units.  Orcs used to be able to equip;  halberds, great weapons, bows, spears, flails, morning stars, shield. (well perhaps not all of these, forgive my memory, but they had more options.

2.  Cavalry should be more useful, step up and striking in I order have hurt them.  Orc boy boyz especially, weak cavalry save and low I.  Now DE Coldone Knights.....they are much better now, or were I suppose.

3.  A balance between charging, step up, initiate, steadfast, and disruption which also takes armywide rules into account. 

-Step up should remain in some form; remember ASF blackguard from 7th?   Welcome to all elves now.

-Steadfast should remain in some form;  Did your 40 orc horde flee from 5 chaos knights/dark riders/ a hydra?

-Charging models being able to attack before they die;  Nice movement phase with your orc boar boy big un's/IC knights!!!  Too bad you charged Khorne warriors with halbards/executioners/white lions/Stormvermin/anything with a higher initiative, now they hit you first, sure hope you brought 10+ cav models so you get a full rank of attacks!

I think this is a fantastic thread for generating ideas.

I think these ideas all need to be weighed together and balanced.  I really look forward to a players mod of WHFB, those working on one, stick with it!

[emcdunna]

I'm doing a complete overhaul mod, you won't need any GW material at all to play.

Personally, I think you need some sort of step-up and steadfast, although they might be able to be tuned a bit.

Also, is anyone thinking that maybe Initiative should just get removed? Everyone attack at the same time?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

As I said before, I doubt you'll get a consensus for a complete overhaul, instead of a limited Update Version.
That said, if you want to change things:
- Step-up does not need tuned
- A consensus can probably be reached that steadfast is either disrupted, or has to take all ranks into account.
- Initiative should stay, but charging units get ASF, except against units with ASF, spears & lances. Regarding the latter: if the charging unit has ASF, spear or lances, attacks are resolved according to Initiative. If not, the enemy with ASF, spears or lances attacks first.

[emcdunna]

Also, you shouldn't just try to make a good game system. It also needs to be simple enough to realistically convince people to play.

All this initiative, ASF, ASL, step up stuff just complicates everything and in some ways it could be pretty unecessary.

Initiative literally does not matter unless one side has a small number of models (might lose attacks if they get hit first)

[Ambrose]

Also, you shouldn't just try to make a good game system. It also needs to be simple enough to realistically convince people to play.

All this initiative, ASF, ASL, step up stuff just complicates everything and in some ways it could be pretty unecessary.

Initiative literally does not matter unless one side has a small number of models (might lose attacks if they get hit first)

I don't think a system has to be unnecessarily complicated, but having a great many options (weapons, racial perks or flaws, army special rules, etc.) and even equipment can really add options to a game.  Having several options is one of the things I like about WFB.  I love my Empire, but not only are games different and challenging depending on what RACE my buddy is playing, but also how they kit their units, heroes, etc.  I think this is one of the strengths of the game, not a weakness.

What a game does need is balance (to a degree).  If you get ASF,  you should pay for it.  If you have impact hits, you should pay for it (I know fair fights are not part of history when it comes to war, but it IS a game).

Personally I liked all the 7th edition options for equipment and magical items far more than the limited items we have in 8th.

Ambrose

[Rein]

Also, you shouldn't just try to make a good game system. It also needs to be simple enough to realistically convince people to play.

All this initiative, ASF, ASL, step up stuff just complicates everything and in some ways it could be pretty unecessary.

Initiative literally does not matter unless one side has a small number of models (might lose attacks if they get hit first)

You are arguing that it does matter?

Not the whole of warhammer is one big unit against another big unit

[The Peacemaker]

I don't know why you guys hate step up. Everyone I've tought understands that immediately. Not complicated at all. Whereas the concept of your front rank getting wiped and then you never ever ever get to swing some dice back does not make sense.

And steadfast.....of glorious steadfast. 
Please tell me why 50 models should break and get run down by a few dudes? Why would I ever take 50 models ever again? ....tell me why historical battles had groups if men fighting together?

With no steadfast ir step up my core would be multiple units of 5 knights and a bunch of single model characters and tanks. ...in fact that sounds like age of sigmar. And at least in age of sigmar I don't even have to bother taking the 5man knight units.

While it's slightly off topic (sorry) why the hate for Chaos Dwarves? I loved loved loved them in 6th, and thought they were pretty cool in 8th...

People hate their broken rules not the actual cool stunties.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Ooops, I forgot the "not" in "Step-up does not need tuned'(now amended). I completely agree with you on that one.
Steadfast is another matter, however. Your 50 models would still be steadfast, if they are completely surrounded and attacked on all flanks by 4x49=196 models. At the very least, the ranks of all units in MCC should be counted together.

[Warlord]

I agree with you EMC about initiative.

To my mind, remove it completely, and have everyone attack simultaneously.
Then have lances + pikes get ASF (if both have, cancel each other out)
And Great Weapons ASL (if both have, cancel each other out)

Then have some ability or bonus situation where you can go up or down.

That way you only really ever have 3 levels of striking order.

[Rein]

Ooops, I forgot the "not" in "Step-up does not need tuned'(now amended). I completely agree with you on that one.
Steadfast is another matter, however. Your 50 models would still be steadfast, if they are completely surrounded and attacked on all flanks by 4x49=196 models. At the very least, the ranks of all units in MCC should be counted together.

Not that likely but you are right. And why count ranks and not models ? Why count models and not unit strength? Why not add all the unit strength together and compare?

I agree with you EMC about initiative.

To my mind, remove it completely, and have everyone attack simultaneously.
Then have lances + pikes get ASF (if both have, cancel each other out)
And Great Weapons ASL (if both have, cancel each other out)

Then have some ability or bonus situation where you can go up or down.

That way you only really ever have 3 levels of striking order.

It removes flavour and is very good for low-I armies (<3 or =3) and bad for high I armies. Why only have exceptions for pikes and lances ? How about other armies?

[Talben21]

Some of these suggestions are getting a little out of hand. 8th ed was/is a great rule system but it does need some tweaking. Here is what I go...

Spears (we all know they need a boost) Against cavalry, fliers, warbeast and monstrous cavalry spears get +1 strength and +2 Initiative. All otehr current spear rules apply as well.

Magic: Max 12 power dice in turn. No exceptions. Purple sun ends after the turn is over and is no longer remains in play.

Challenges: Challenges now take place outside of combat like they used to do in 6th ed. This does away with that cheesy tactic of putting a character on a large base (ie Dwarf Lord on a throne) challenging and thus denying a large swath of your unit the ability to attack.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The 6th edition rules were not too different from the 8th in this respect: 

6th BRB p.99: "Once a challenge is accepted, the character who accepted the challenge is moved in the ranks so that the two protagonists are opposite each other. If the models are especially large it may be more convenient to remove them altogether and place them beside the fighting units.
 
When combat is worked out, these two will fight together. No other models may attack them even if their bases are touching, and no other models may shoot at them or use magic to attack them."

[Talben21]

The 6th edition rules were not too different from the 8th in this respect: 

6th BRB p.99: "Once a challenge is accepted, the character who accepted the challenge is moved in the ranks so that the two protagonists are opposite each other. If the models are especially large it may be more convenient to remove them altogether and place them beside the fighting units.
 
When combat is worked out, these two will fight together. No other models may attack them even if their bases are touching, and no other models may shoot at them or use magic to attack them."

Ah then I believe it was 5th edition when challenges occurred outside of the units fighting.