home

Author Topic: AoS unit formations  (Read 7903 times)

Offline Baron von Klatz

  • Members
  • Posts: 1683
  • warhammer> All other works of mankind
AoS unit formations
« on: July 29, 2015, 08:25:33 AM »
(Not sure if this belongs here instead of the tactica but that seems 8th oriented so I put this topic here)

Now then, it seems if our rightful place as the supreme tactician of warfare, be it in the old world or the mortal realms, is being usurped. I've visited the Lustria site and found them devising AoS tactics most devious!
http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/ixts-unit-formations.16584/

My question to you, noble generals of the Empire, is how to show our esteemed civilization is the greatest at such things as perfecting the technique of directing the flow of combat like a orchestra so that we can efficiently bash a fellow's brains in?

My ideas so far include:

Landsknecht formation- S=spearmen, H=halberds, G=handgunner, E=Empire general (or other hero)

        GGGGG
        GHHHHHH
        GHSSSSH
        GHSSSSH
        GSSSESHG
          SSSSSHG    <this side towards enemy.
          HSSSSHG
          HHHHHG
                 GGGG

This formation is very defensible and allows gunners to fire on any approaching foe and then making a retreat so that the halberds and range 2 spearmen can strike the enemy with the hero giving buffs to the troops. The gunners should proceed to flank and open fire on the engaged enemy or try to hold off the enemy's other units.

Remember, if your limited on models, don't make it a solid halberds wall. Let some spearmen form up in the back of the formation to get them to the 20+ model count abilities.

Imperial sword: S=Swordsmen,  A=archers

                   SSSS  <have this end of the sword pointed at the foe.
                   SSSS
         AAAASSSSAAAA  <so that both sides of the "hilt" have a clear target.
            AAASSSSAAA
                 ASSSSA
                  AAAAA

A aggressive formation that good for weakening targets on the move and can act like a sword in striking (archers fire and pile in along with swordsmen) or parrying (archers retreat after enemy piled in and let swordsmen endure them while archers regroup).

Mousetrap: S=Spearmen, G=Handgunner
               
             SSS                            SSS     <north side faces opponent so that handgunners have a good field of vision.
             SSSGGGGGGGGGGSSS
             SSSGGGGGGGGGGSSS
             SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

A defensive formation for breaking up enemy units. Lots of powerful range shots and constant 2 range spear attacks to wear down the enemy.


Those are my thoughts, what about you lads? :smile2:

           
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 02:59:19 PM by Baron von Klatz »
"No battle is ever meaningless for all life is merely death post-poned"
-elector count of the Empire.

Offline Darknight

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 7547
  • Dipped in Magic, Clothed in Science
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2015, 09:21:11 AM »
Is this made up of multiple units arranged in this formation, or are you thinking of a single warscroll which allows one unit of combined arms?

I would allow either, of course - I think AoS is a game wherein such fun should be encouraged.

Looks very good to me - this kind of combined arms is what Empire does best, and it's great to see a real opportunity to use that in AoS.
Completed Projects | History of Ophelia VII

Quote from: PhillyT
Everyone finds their balance between satisfaction and obsession.

Offline SoonerSox

  • Members
  • Posts: 202
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2015, 01:49:43 PM »
I love this idea, quite honestly the subject matter illustrates the potential of AoS tactics. I'll admit that for the most part I've been playing AoS similar to 8th in that I move my blocks of units without mixing them.

Combining these formations with the state troop detachment organization and the generals hold the line will really be good. Probably catch the opponent off guard too.

Offline Lord_Crom

  • Members
  • Posts: 164
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2015, 01:50:48 PM »
I really like this idea. Surrounding a unit of handgunners with a unit of swords could be really interesting way of defending each other and keeping the force moving forward. Will experiment with my next AoS battle and let you know which formations work for me.

Offline SoonerSox

  • Members
  • Posts: 202
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2015, 02:20:05 PM »
You only mentioned which side faces the enemy with one of the formations. How are the others directed?

Offline Baron von Klatz

  • Members
  • Posts: 1683
  • warhammer> All other works of mankind
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2015, 03:04:12 PM »
Is this made up of multiple units arranged in this formation, or are you thinking of a single warscroll which allows one unit of combined arms?

I would allow either, of course - I think AoS is a game wherein such fun should be encouraged.

Looks very good to me - this kind of combined arms is what Empire does best, and it's great to see a real opportunity to use that in AoS.

It's intended to be as separate units but a warscroll formation is a cool concept. :smile2:

You only mentioned which side faces the enemy with one of the formations. How are the others directed?

Fixed that, thanks for pointing that out.

(Also edited that my phone put that the sword formation "parties" instead of "parries"...I hate auto-correct)

Edit: oh I forgot to mention that I'm working on artillery and cavalry strategies right now, the mortar might be useful again since it doesn't need a LoS.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 03:10:27 PM by Baron von Klatz »
"No battle is ever meaningless for all life is merely death post-poned"
-elector count of the Empire.

Offline SoonerSox

  • Members
  • Posts: 202
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2015, 05:25:03 PM »
This video pretty much sums it up:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=bf7LNIv7_Vk

"Open your mind!"

Offline Darknight

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 7547
  • Dipped in Magic, Clothed in Science
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2015, 05:45:22 PM »
Very good video.
Completed Projects | History of Ophelia VII

Quote from: PhillyT
Everyone finds their balance between satisfaction and obsession.

Offline Baron von Klatz

  • Members
  • Posts: 1683
  • warhammer> All other works of mankind
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2015, 10:31:34 PM »
Thanks for the video SoonerSox! :::cheers:::

Alright, here's some experimental flagellant tactics I think might be interesting.

Zealot's gauntlet: F=flagellant,  S=state trooper (preferably swordsmen)

              SSSSSSSSSSS   <north-side facing enemy.
              SFFFFFFFFFFS
                   FFFFFFFFFF

-After piling into enemy-

     SSSFSFSFSFSFSSS
     SFFFFFFFFFFFFFSS

The idea is to limit the number of attacks the foe can use against your flagellants while the mounting casualties (but at a controllable rate due to the blockade) make the zealots stronger.


The fanatic's blade: F=Flagellant,  G=greatswords (state troops work but I imagine this as a hard-hitting tactic)

                       GGG < north-side towards enemy.
                    GFFFG
                GGFFFFGG
              GGFFFFFFGG
            GGFFFFFFFFGG

-After contact with the enemy-


              GGGFFFFGG
             GGFFFFFFGGG
          GGGFFFFFFFGGGG

The object here is to use the greatswords as a delivery system that should focus on protecting the flagellants flanks while they stream in.

Just some thoughts on balancing out our defenseless little madmen. :smile2:
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 12:42:45 AM by Baron von Klatz »
"No battle is ever meaningless for all life is merely death post-poned"
-elector count of the Empire.

Offline SoonerSox

  • Members
  • Posts: 202
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2015, 11:23:55 PM »
Nice, now to open my Flagellants and actually get them built!

Offline Krokz

  • Members
  • Posts: 646
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2015, 11:07:17 AM »
The fanatic's blade: F=Flagellant,  G=greatswords (state troops work but I imagine this as a hard-hitting tactic)

                       GGG < north-side towards enemy.
                    GFFFG
                GGFFFFGG
              GGFFFFFFGG
            GGFFFFFFFFGG

-After contact with the enemy-


              GGGFFFFGG
             GGFFFFFFGGG
          GGGFFFFFFFGGGG

The object here is to use the greatswords as a delivery system that should focus on protecting the flagellants flanks while they stream in.
That is presuming you are allowed to move models that are already base to base with enemy. By RAW sliding when base to base is not allowed.

Offline Darknight

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 7547
  • Dipped in Magic, Clothed in Science
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2015, 11:10:28 AM »
Technically speaking, base-to-base is meaningless - you measure the distance between models, not bases. So, you can be (theoretically) in base-to-base contact, but able to move closer together.

I will admit, it is most unlikely, however.
Completed Projects | History of Ophelia VII

Quote from: PhillyT
Everyone finds their balance between satisfaction and obsession.

Offline Oxycutor

  • Members
  • Posts: 1891
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2015, 11:28:23 AM »
Some things that I need to point out.

And I'll use this example, based on the State Troop Detachment

W=Swordsman, S=Spearman, H=Halberdier, X=Crossbowman, G=General, O=Outrider

WWHHHHHHHHHHHHWW
WWSSSSSSSSSSSSSWW
WWSSSSSSSSSSSSSWW
WWSSSSSSSSSSSSSWW
WWXXXXXXXXXXXXXWW
WWXXXXXXGXXXXXXWW
WWWWWWWWWWWWW
          OOOOO

Halberdiers facing the enemy, crossbows just behind the rear

This is 6 different units, even if it's only 4 differnt Warscrolls.  Each unit must maintain unit coherency of an inch, and if it moves in the movement phase, it must move together if it has lost coherency.  Though it doesn't have to actually move, just tht if it does it then has to join up.

As each unit would make a separate roll for a run move, to move this quickly as a block, it's moving at the lowest of all the movement.

Each unit would have to make a charge attempt separately, and here is where the formation becomes a problem.  A unit can't move to withing 3" of an enemy.   When it charges, it must get to within half an inch in order to complete the charge, or it doesn't move at all.  Even with 20mm square bases, they are more than half an inch wide, you have to hope youe enemy unit has parts of a model sticking out far enough (Though we also have spears in the formation, so that helps...but even so, it's scope for arguments about wether it's completed a charge or not.

So, this formation coudn't really charge as it is, though it could recieve a charge, which is often a disadvantage.

In the combat phase, even those likely to be able to pile in, or have the weapon range to attack, you have 3 or 4 units to activate, against maybe only one for the enemy.

This formation is deep enoough to keep the xbows out of combat for a while, which would mean being more than 3" from an enemy.  However, given that the have two units of the same height as them, they wouldnt' be able to see much, unless anything the could shoot as was taller than a man sized, as though the second rank of xbows can see through it's own unit, it can't see through the spearmen or halberdiers.  The outriders, sitting higher up, and can therefore see over the unit could still shoot though

Also with piling in, I've seen many times that people pile in anywhere they want, and that's not how it works, the pile in allows you to move toward s the closest enemy model.   Though not necessarily in a straight line, as it doesn't specifiy that.  Using pile in to get a mix of two units in, isn't going to be as straightforward as you might thik.  And Models can't be moved over other models, unless they can fly.

I'm not trying to dismiss the idea of formations, just pointing out there are limitations within the rules to consider, when coming up with them


Offline StealthKnightSteg

  • Members
  • Posts: 5188
  • Squishing Squickhoppers since 1999
    • https://www.facebook.com/vincent.goede
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2015, 02:21:17 PM »
Speaking of models in range instead of bases now with AoS, I made a referral to the TLoS rules that anything stiking out of a model that isn't really part of the body doesn't count for the TLoS and thus also not for measurement in AoS. Seemed fairer that way.
So no banners, plumes, tails, weapons
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

Offline Darknight

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 7547
  • Dipped in Magic, Clothed in Science
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2015, 03:03:59 PM »
Agreed, SKS. AoS seems a game that needs that kind of reasonableness.
Completed Projects | History of Ophelia VII

Quote from: PhillyT
Everyone finds their balance between satisfaction and obsession.

Offline StealthKnightSteg

  • Members
  • Posts: 5188
  • Squishing Squickhoppers since 1999
    • https://www.facebook.com/vincent.goede
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2015, 03:14:36 PM »
Agreed, SKS. AoS seems a game that needs that kind of reasonableness.

And prevents modeling weirdness for trying to get most out of the range.. And that is already out of the spirit of the game in my opinion
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

Offline Darknight

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 7547
  • Dipped in Magic, Clothed in Science
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2015, 04:34:48 PM »
I have always maintained that things like using old Rhino models because they are a half-inch smaller, or targeting models based on banners, or claiming a whole building is hit because a corner gets clipped with a template, or the "block-but-not-block" with a skirmisher etc. etc. are against the game I want to play.

I want to put some models down, tell a story, have some fun and a battle.
Completed Projects | History of Ophelia VII

Quote from: PhillyT
Everyone finds their balance between satisfaction and obsession.

Offline Baron von Klatz

  • Members
  • Posts: 1683
  • warhammer> All other works of mankind
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2015, 08:50:54 AM »
The fanatic's blade: F=Flagellant,  G=greatswords (state troops work but I imagine this as a hard-hitting tactic)

                       GGG < north-side towards enemy.
                    GFFFG
                GGFFFFGG
              GGFFFFFFGG
            GGFFFFFFFFGG

-After contact with the enemy-


              GGGFFFFGG
             GGFFFFFFGGG
          GGGFFFFFFFGGGG

The object here is to use the greatswords as a delivery system that should focus on protecting the flagellants flanks while they stream in.
That is presuming you are allowed to move models that are already base to base with enemy. By RAW sliding when base to base is not allowed.

A good point, I was merely giving an idea on what your general strategy should be with the formation rather than the only way to play it. These formations need more testing and it's highly recommended that anyone using them adapt the formation to their play-style/comp ruling as they see fit.


Concerning Oxycutter,  you make some excellent points on the drawbacks to large formations.  The bigger they are the more cumbersome they become (main reason the Spanish Tercios lost out to later smaller formations of more fluid design). The formations allow interesting tactics and units are able to support one another but the cost is maneuverability and consequences to charging recklessly.

A large formation needs firepower and support attacks(like spearmen) to make up for the lack of movement while smaller formations (like the imperial sword formation) can be aggressive but need to consider their staying power and when retreating might be the better option than continuing their attack.

Your example formation is a good example of a cumbersome fortress, with more firepower it would make a good blocking point on the battlefield.

To my mind, I think your formation could be more tactically aggressive in this form:

                                    HHHHH
        WWWWW   XXXHHHHHXXX    WWWWW
        WWWWW   XSSSSSSSSSSX    WWWWW
        WWWWW   XSSSSSGSSSSX    WWWWW
        WWWWW   XSSSSSSSSSSX     WWWWW
        WWWWW   XSSSSSSSSSSX     WWWWW
                             XXXXXXXXXXX
                                   OOOOO

I think this is a lot more versatile formation for countering enemy maneuvers with units able to hold flanks or charge out and stall a enemy unit while the rest of the formation deals woth another enemy unit. The core of the formation can angle itself freely to allow more x-bow fire on the enemy as well.

Just my thoughts, hope they help. :smile2:
"No battle is ever meaningless for all life is merely death post-poned"
-elector count of the Empire.

Offline SoonerSox

  • Members
  • Posts: 202
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2015, 05:46:56 PM »
I was wondering how Oxy was dealing with LOS in his formation (concerning the crossbows). Barron's response seems to make it easier but if there is something I'm missing with LOS rules in Oxy's formation let me know.

Offline Oxycutor

  • Members
  • Posts: 1891
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2015, 05:29:00 AM »
My formation was used as an example to show that they wouldn't have LOS. At least for anything man sized in front of them.    Ideally you don't want crossbowmen within 3 inches of an enemy, as they can possibly shoot twice, where they are more effective than in close combat, but they still need to see over intervening stuff, and the relatively low range in AoS means getting off the hills.

Offline SoonerSox

  • Members
  • Posts: 202
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2015, 04:50:26 AM »
Look at this basic formation and tell me if you think it would work due to each model being able to be up to 1 inch away from the nearest model in it's unit. This is 20 Spearmen (or at least will be when the spear tips are glued on), 10 Handgunners, a general and a Helstorm. Hopefully you can tell what is what since its almost all just unpainted gray plastic. The main idea being the front rank having every other man a part of a different unit. I guess I could put Halberdiers between the Handgunners and have the Spearmen all on the second row. And yes you can tell by the gray plastic that I never played with Spearmen or Handgunners prior to AoS!  :::cheers:::




Offline StealthKnightSteg

  • Members
  • Posts: 5188
  • Squishing Squickhoppers since 1999
    • https://www.facebook.com/vincent.goede
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2015, 08:14:00 AM »
positionally it could work, but moving around will be hard. And it might help to tell what your intention with this formation is. Defensive for the helstorm?
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

Offline SoonerSox

  • Members
  • Posts: 202
Re: AoS unit formations
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2015, 03:27:26 PM »
Yeah it's more of a defense for the Helstorm. I don't think I would charge out of it unless things started to fall apart. Ideally I'd like 20 Handgunners for their volley bonus. I would want to build toward the state troop detachment battalion war scroll. I liked Oxycutors idea of using outriders instead of great swords for more shooting with their higher LOS they can easily be in the back. I just need one more unit of state troops with the problem that they are very bad unless you take at least 20. The formation starts to get clogged up.