Topic: 8th edition - Empire Army Book

[Warlord]

Hi all,

I know we had a bunch of threads for the Empire army book in the 8th edition, however a lot of them were tied down in the 7th edition rule shortcomings.

As such, I have un-stickied them, and I imagine the time will come soon when more Warhammer Games have been played, when we can then discuss the tweaks and modifications we would like to see for the Empire in 8th.

[Shield of Freedom]

You're right.

Considering the changes that 8th edition has made to the game, the Empire has really gotten a boost.  Between the magic lores, Halberdiers being "fixed", and the new power found in Greatswordsmen I really can't complain.  Most of the book is pretty solid.

So, here are my suggestions for what subtle changes I would like to see in the new book.

First off, believe it or not but our state troops are a bit over priced.  Compare a Skaven Clanrat to them.  A Clanrat has one better movement, one better initiative, and a special rule that allows them to pretty much overcome their "deficiency" in Ld... in some cases it makes it better than an Empire army can even field.

State troops deserve a point drop across the board (not counting Handgunners and Crossbowmen, which seem pretty good for their points).  A Clanrat WITH a shield and spear is one point less than an Empire Spearman with a shield.... not cool.

Mortars... well, I'll be honest... seeing them INCREASE to between 80 and 100 points would not suprise me, and I wouldn't complain.  They're just TOO good now.  I haven't seen an army (including mine) amongst the 4 regulars that play Empire (which includes me) that don't field AT LEAST two of the things with an engineer nearby.

Knights are a bit pricey, maybe 20 points per model would be more appropriate.   Something that has always bothered me is that Swordsmen are I4 as a core State Troop but the elite of the Empire, the Knights and the Greatswordsmen, are only I3... something is wrong there.  So, let's make them I4.  2 points per model for S4 (Inner Circle) and making the unit as such still makes them a Special choice instead of core.  Don't limit the number of Inner Circle units though.

Some additions I think would be neat are:
Halfling units of archers.  BS4 archers with Shortbows and feigned flight!
Ogres... but not as units.  Have them be unit upgrades that must be placed as centraly as possible in the second rank of any melee state troop unit that buys one.  35 points with a hand weapon.  Can be given a great weapon for 5 points more.  It would work like Kroxigors in Skink units but only ONE can be taken regardless of the size of the unit.  Would be pretty neat to see Ogres in the Empire again and being recruited into state troop units!  I would imagine that Free Company can have two... and Greatswords cannot have any (no one wants to see Ogres in the elite guard, but odd ones might show up for militia muster).

How about those guys?

[badpixie]

The new Empire Book will be redesigned to:

1) Force you to redesign your army so that you need too buy new GW figures, and

2) Achieve nothing else.

[mr chumley warner]

I'm drinking Port.

In my opinion , they need to bring in Halfling's .

A horde of 50 for 3 pts each, with short bows or spears !

[Corryn]

where in the rulebook is the ward save for infantry with armor and shield mentioned? Alot of players mention it but I can't find it anywhere.

[Al Kakori]

where in the rulebook is the ward save for infantry with armor and shield mentioned? Alot of players mention it but I can't find it anywhere.

Look in the index under Parry Save

[dka721]

You're right.

Considering the changes that 8th edition has made to the game, the Empire has really gotten a boost.  Between the magic lores, Halberdiers being "fixed", and the new power found in Greatswordsmen I really can't complain.  Most of the book is pretty solid.

So, here are my suggestions for what subtle changes I would like to see in the new book.

First off, believe it or not but our state troops are a bit over priced.  Compare a Skaven Clanrat to them.  A Clanrat has one better movement, one better initiative, and a special rule that allows them to pretty much overcome their "deficiency" in Ld... in some cases it makes it better than an Empire army can even field.

State troops deserve a point drop across the board (not counting Handgunners and Crossbowmen, which seem pretty good for their points).  A Clanrat WITH a shield and spear is one point less than an Empire Spearman with a shield.... not cool.

Mortars... well, I'll be honest... seeing them INCREASE to between 80 and 100 points would not suprise me, and I wouldn't complain.  They're just TOO good now.  I haven't seen an army (including mine) amongst the 4 regulars that play Empire (which includes me) that don't field AT LEAST two of the things with an engineer nearby.

Knights are a bit pricey, maybe 20 points per model would be more appropriate.   Something that has always bothered me is that Swordsmen are I4 as a core State Troop but the elite of the Empire, the Knights and the Greatswordsmen, are only I3... something is wrong there.  So, let's make them I4.  2 points per model for S4 (Inner Circle) and making the unit as such still makes them a Special choice instead of core.  Don't limit the number of Inner Circle units though.

Some additions I think would be neat are:
Halfling units of archers.  BS4 archers with Shortbows and feigned flight!
Ogres... but not as units.  Have them be unit upgrades that must be placed as centraly as possible in the second rank of any melee state troop unit that buys one.  35 points with a hand weapon.  Can be given a great weapon for 5 points more.  It would work like Kroxigors in Skink units but only ONE can be taken regardless of the size of the unit.  Would be pretty neat to see Ogres in the Empire again and being recruited into state troop units!  I would imagine that Free Company can have two... and Greatswords cannot have any (no one wants to see Ogres in the elite guard, but odd ones might show up for militia muster).

How about those guys?

I have stopped comparing statetroops to clan rats simply becuase it is about the only core than is near the same pts but better in its statline, I also feel clan rats going up in price is a better solution than reducing the pts on a chunk of our core.  I4 knights and greatswords is something i would like to see too.  I dont know about the orge idea,  fluff wise it doens't make sense, Empire soldiers who spend their days training to work in a cohesive, disciplined unit would ahve to also train to work with a big ogre in the middle of the formation and if an ogre had the discipline to fight in a unit of men than it wouldn't be a normal ogre but probably a maneater but maneaters are mercs who fight alongside an army not really as part of it so having ogres in a unit doesnt make much sense.  I can see maybe as a rare or special choice that they create a unit of Mercs with that kind of rule in it. 

I personally would like to have the ability to take giants as part of the army or some form of big monster.  Spears turning into pikes would be nice mainly cause spearmen pale in comparison to the other core choices. 

[Jamesy52]

There has been a mention of Greatswords getting I4. I think it would be pointless as they are going to strike last anyway. They would be better off with an extra attack; since they are the finest warriors and veterns in the state armies. I do think knights should be I4 though.

[Oscar "dA mAD cHoPpA" Barela]

I bought the new Empire book today....Being a Massive Empire fan with 3 Huge Empire armies.... I feel Im losing the love with this new edition. No initaitive 4 troops ANYWHERE...Almost everything got a points increase except spearmen? really?... Demigryph Knights are about the only unit that impressed me except for the high points cost of 58 each!!! Warrior Priests are a MUST!!! Still looking through the book and checking it out. So far I feel everything is Meh and Blah....

[Noble Korhedron]

W.T.F?! Swordsmen lose I4?! :-@

[Jivaine SkyWing II]

I agree, overall, I'm disappointed with the new empire book. 

All units are up 1 point, and just don't feel like they are worth it. 

Nice to see that Reiksguard knights are stubborn, that's good. 

But the cannon is up 20 points, and all other artillery are too, and the mortar is now only S2.  Good bye mortars, it's been fun using you.

ON the up side warrior priests and arch lectors are a little bit cheaper, but it does not say if they generate dispel dice, now you have to roll for them.  meh...

Bought the new witch hunter model, it looks friggin awesome.

[Clive Henrick]

Like everyone else, I think the new army book is a let down as it makes doing the combined arms strength of the empire that much harder.

+1pt Swordsmen --> Will almost never use them now.
+1pt Halberd--> Still the best Empire troop,but one point more.
Spearmen --. Sigh, Will they ever get the love they deserve? Not in this edition ...

Most of the wa r machines are now quite expensive. To take a HB You almost must add a Master Engineer to make it effective. That's almost over 200pts for one.

Cannon, well its still a great tool. Mortar is expensive now but still doing okay. Hellstorm, just not sure what to think of it.

Steam Tank. Lost 4 Toughness but much I like the steam point rules better. Its more flexible now. And now it has Int Saves. Almost no more Instant death spells to a ST.

The Best parts of the Book.

Knights are really cheap. Reiksguard is great for the points. Demi -Gyphon Knights are actually good at chewing through troops. Add Life and or Beast and you get monsters Cav!

Pistoliers are just not my thing as the R12 hitting on 5's makes them very hard to use. Outriders are okay for support.

The New Wizard Chariots are great supporting units. I think I will always have one or two of these on board. Ward6+ with a 6" Range or +1 to Hit in CC with a 6" Range is great.

Captains and Empire Generals are great for there cost. 3d6 Leadership for BT (take the best 2) makes stubborn troops fantastic (So take a Crown of Command Boys and Girls!).  ALector actually does not have much of a purpose in this edition as He will drive your cost up for nothing special on priest spells. The War Alter is okay, But at  +50 pts and no longer sharing the Wardsave means your AL + Ward Save + WA will be in the 300 to 350 pt range. WP are fantastic deals for almost the same cost as a Captain.

Trick: All Detachments within 3" are effected by a Priest Spell. So .... Soulfire on a Parent Unit + 2 Detachments that supported the Parent Unit. Thats 3d6 S4 Fire Attacks for a BL3.

Anyway more latter.

[Noble Korhedron]

@Clive Henrick:I'm pretty sure anything riding a chariot benefits from the ward save, e.g. WAlter, Hurricanum, Luminark, etc.

[Eomi]

Hurricanum doesnt give Wsv, Luminark give 6+ and War Altar gives 4+.

Im really concerned about Steam Tank. It now costs 50 points, but is really unreliable now. Now you get only maxium 5 steam points. And I just simulated a throw. I generated 5 steam points, got Misfire , got 3 on D3 dice and my tank just blew up hurting my army in 6". First round, I didnt even had chance to move... That was amazing and i had 1/36 chance for it. However generating 4 points you can be sure your tank won't blowup only malfunction.
More of ST: It moves up to 3D6 which is rarely 18 and most of the time 9 inches. Still has a great cannon, but i never risked using it because of possible misfire, Steam gun is great, it can "breath" with Strenght of 2,3 or 4 and even in close combat which is nice adding grinding the foes.

And now very strange issue, what about characteristic tests of Steam tank? Its not a war machine, so Army Book don't precise it. FAQ doesnt help, it gets even worse, RuleBook BOOK FAQ says Steam Tank has Toughness 10, Army Book says it has 6. Anyway even when testing drivers Initiative 3, or Leadership 7, Steam Tank gets very weak. Imagine casket of souls casting LIght of death on Steamtank. Driver failed this test by 5 or even 7, which means ST gets
5-7 wounds without armour save in 1 round and made it almost useless.... Can you guys help me clear this out?

[Noble Korhedron]

Hurricanum doesnt give Wsv, Luminark give 6+ and War Altar gives 4+.

So the Hurricanum doesn't? FIne. I only meant that anyone riding a chariot with a ward save - e.g. an arch lector - benefits from that ward save.

[Shade p38]

i don't like how we got our magic items reduced but we did. another thing i don't like is how my swordsmen now cost more where as my usual dark elf opponent can field his spearmen at only 6 points with out shields and their stats are better than mine

[Noble Korhedron]

i don't like how we got our magic items reduced but we did. another thing i don't like is how my swordsmen now cost more where as my usual dark elf opponent can field his spearmen at only 6 points with out shields and their stats are better than mine

Agreed. The Empire are already disadvantaged enough being humans. Furthermore, the AoMI should provide a 5+ ward save if it's going to cost 50 pts from now on.