Topic: The new army book, likes and dislikes.

[Claus79]

So with the new armybook having been officially released, how are people liking it?

My initial response was one of dissappointment, as it felt like loosing alot, and gaining very little... however.. im turning around slightly after reading it a second time. Im still under the impresion that its a fairly large nerf, but it also opens up for more varied playing styles.

Thus il post what i inistially feel is good bad, and hopefully ill either get some input on ways to use what i think isnt so good, so i change my mind

Likes:
Witch Hunter, both fluff wise and rules wise.. wau.. just wau!

Hold the line rule, ive been wanting something like that for a long time, and with it only affecting the unit its present in, it dosnt feel overpowered.

Spearmen being the cheapest troops, making them a viable choice.

Flagellants: love that they arent "standard" as core/warrior priest choice anymore, with them being special, and having been buffed to ws3 with no limit to the size.. im liking them alot more as they are now.

Demigryph Knights: they seem fairly priced point vise, and they sure fill a much needed gap in the empire army.

Helblaster volley gun: Being less inclined to blow up is grand news! makes it alot more interesting in my book, as it was almost always certainly gonna blow at some point with the old rules.

Helstorm rocket battery: Im not sure if its actually better now, or worse.. but that aside.. i like the new rules for it, better than the old ones.

Steam tank: Slightly less reliable movement and charging, but with alot more tools, at a lower cost.. Steam gun might actually be used now


Dislikes:

Grenade launching blunderbuss is as useless as ever.

Master engineers have not had a single change, despite them needing a full overhaul from my point of view.

Greatswords are still not the elite unit i feel they should represent.

Knightly orders are still not worth their points

Grand master, is still not a viable choice (which is really sad imo)

Mortar: costing more, while only doing str 2, has really made this one too weak.. which is sad, as it surely needed to be less powerfull, but not useless.

Huntsmen being a special choice

And unrelated to the rules, im really sad we arent getting new knights (models), and im not a bbig fan of the three wagons (War alter, and the two magic ones) and it might be me.. but isnt the head/body ratio on the griffon and the demogryphs very disproportional?

Would love to hear what you guys feel the new book offers, or i you have some angles to the units i havnt thought of that might make them shiney in my eyes again.

Kind regards

Claus

[Daymz]

I have not seen any other thread discussing this in special... So as long as it is not deleted, here's my opinion :

Having been able to purchase the book two days in advance I already had the joy of doing battle once against Ogre Kingdoms with the new rules yesterday.

Personally, I am very happy with the overhaul we got. I have been playing since the beginning of 6th edition, and so far I definitely like the 8th book most. Especially since it finally makes those supposed-backbone-of-the-empire state troops more than just overpriced goblins. The current detachment rules, especially in use with the new warrior priest prayers, are a real bonus that makes the empire more characteristic also in gameplay.

I also like the new Steam Tank rules, for it makes the tank essentially more reliable. True, I can never put up any steam pressure without fearing some sort of "misfire", but the misfire chart is very forgiving and it's principles of steam point generation allow it to be used also when wounds drop under 8. The new points cost is also fair, in my opinion.

Now in more direct response to your post, Claus, this is where I disagree (consider the rest agreed ):

While I like that Flagellants are no longer core or rare but now filing into special choices, I think that the price increase of a full 2 points does not quite make up for the fact that they are just no longer capped at 30 (which was going to be obsolete in 8th anyway) or the one more WS. The new take on the "The end is nigh!" rule is cool and I like the bonus of when 4+ flagellants biting the dust, but it will come in rather rarely... D6 S3 hits just don't kill that many flaggies that often. Yet, my main concern remains with the points increase. 12 points... Is a bit steep.

Also, Demigryph Knights are a niche unit I don't know where to fit in. For once, as they are monstrous cavalry and their mounts are actually taking the beef rather than their riders, there simply is no reason I can see to field them in units of more than three... And these nine wounds are not taking too many prolonged combats, I fear. But I might be wrong. I have yet to experience them on the field myself.

The Witch Hunter is a model I would really want to love, but doing the math I wonder where it's niche really sits (especially when trying to shoot an enemy model dead). A brace of pistols at more than 6" distance fired as marksman makes the to-hit-rolls two 6s at his BS of 4... This doesn't happen all that often. Wearing only light armor (and not having a non-magical choice to go better than that) he won't survive long in melee, and as I will want to field him within my infantry for the buffs he gives and his own protection, I will somehow have to steer him towards the - probably wizard - model I intend to kill. With his entire unit. And then, I will have to get him into direct contact with the model I named when the melee begins - and he will be a main target for the enemy to allocate attacks to. ...I just don't know about this guy yet... Seems to have quite a few variables.

My opinions.

Daymz

[Woodmaeng]

I'm actually quite liking it, having played two games with it immediately on release.

Claus, i agree with most of the good points. I'd also like to add that the slightly hidden change to detachments where its now 1/2 rounding up instead of down is going to make a significant change to armies. A block of 20 swordsmen with a captain essentially takes the unit down to 19, meaning only 9 in each Det. Change in the rule means with the same config, you can have 2 Dets at 10 each, granting the rank bonus (providing they stay alive long enough to reach their first turn of cambat for supporting attacks).
Bit annoyed at the lack of supporting charge (now only counter charge), but they can still effectively execute it and it doesnt encourage a messy gaming table.

Master Engineers did get a bit of an overhaul, although subtle. They no longer have to "join" a war machine to give it the bonuses, they just have to be close enough (3"). Put them between a cannon and a mortar as either a rear guard with a Rep Handgun or give him a long rifle to snipe at those in the middle of the field. Just make sure you fire your war machines first so he can reroll instead of firing.

Daynz, on your Witch Hunter comment, once you get him in combat with the wizard's unit, call a challenge to take him on if you can't get in base combat. Make use of the "Make Way" rule that allows you to reposition characters. The brace of pistols doesn't seem too pointless, as you get to re-holl failed hits, and with 4 of them, the chance of hitting goes up. At strength 4, they have a mostly even chance to wound and then Killing Blow takes effect - Target eliminated!

Before the 8th, i was trying to use a Grand Master as a general and give him a Runefang, but it was limited to the "General of the Empire" model only, meaning a GM couldn't take one. Now, there's no limitation and it's a bit cheaper. GM, having almost the same stats as the Emperor, armed with a runefang making his unit immune to psychology is a pretty good combo. Have yet to try it out, but my next 2000pt batte wil definitely test it. I think it works out at 246 points as a lord choice, so just fits into the <25% of a 1000pt army. Charge it into the enemy General's unit, make it break, flee and aim to get everything else doing the same. I might need to give that idea a go too. A very knight heavy 1000pt army, but if it does the damage i'm thinking it can do... who knows.

End result - quite happy with the changes, plus, new things are always good to play with (providing you can afford the money and time to pay for and assemble/paint them). Should keep Empire players coming up with crazy new combinations for a year or so.

[Oscar "dA mAD cHoPpA" Barela]

Not Digging it too much thus far... alot of it is meh and blah...i would have liked it better if they would have just left the points cost of the troops alone. I dig the Warrior Priest, fix on the Helblaster, Demigryphs are pretty Heavy in Points but do deliver a Punch. I really don't see what the Major Boost is in this book. 2 new characters, 1 new special knight unit, 2 new rare choice chariots... couple of positive and negative tweaks here and there... all else is the same...Lame...

I here the chittering and scuttling of rats in the rafters...the smell of dank fur and fetid scent...the whispered stutterings of squeeky voices..."DIE-DIE...MANTHINGS DIE!!!" the Vermin Lords Emissary has spoken...and I shall follow....

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

Has it been unofficially determined yet what's the best Regiment + Detachment combo?  I've heard Swordsmen are now useless as Regiments due to Wards they can get from other sources.  I've heard Detachments are now pointless.  I've heard Spear Regiment + Halberd Detachment is the only way to go.  I've heard Halberd horde is the only way to go.  I've heard a lot of things!  Still too early to tell? 

I'm a potential new Empire player, so I wanted to make sure I get the proper core!   

Thanks

[Claus79]

Has it been unofficially determined yet what's the best Regiment + Detachment combo?  I've heard Swordsmen are now useless as Regiments due to Wards they can get from other sources.  I've heard Detachments are now pointless.  I've heard Spear Regiment + Halberd Detachment is the only way to go.  I've heard Halberd horde is the only way to go.  I've heard a lot of things!  Still too early to tell? 

I'm a potential new Empire player, so I wanted to make sure I get the proper core!   

Thanks

I think pretty much every angle of this game is being covered by someone, but i have to say whomever you heard that from hasnt read the new book..

Swordsmen arent useless, they have however lost their spot as the certain choice, id say Spearmen and Halbardiers are about equal in option now, id pick halberdiers personnaly though.

As for detachments being pointless, i cant think of why anyone would think that. As they now share buffs with their parent unit, and has recieved an overhaul thaat actually makes them quite usefull again.

And no.. there are certainly other ways to go about it, than a halberdier horde, in fact id dare say the new books demands you be more than all horde, or all gunline

Overall empire lost some in the book, and gained some. i personnaly think we lost more than we gained, but that the book has some very interesting potential.

Kind regards

Claus

[Woodmaeng]

I wouldn't say swordsmen are completely useless. After a game on the weekend with a high-elf player friend, we were trying to work out why he hasn't been able to win the last few games against me. We put a unit of 20 19 swordsmen + captain against a unit of his 20 spearelves, both units with all the fluff came to around 205 HE vs 230 Emp. We assumed neither charged and they were just in combat and played as per normal. After 2 rounds, it worked out around even and neither of us broke combat, though technically he should have won due to the fact that he had all 4 ranks fighting vs my 2, but thats where random chance comes into play.
Halberdiers may not have had much more luck due to their lesser weapon skill and would have lost more based on the lack of the ward save. Had i been facing a tougher unit with armour, or just a unit of beasts, then halberdiers would have been worth it for strength.

I guess the point i'm trying to make is that there probably isn't an ideal combination, it all depends who you are facing, whether you have been able to smash them up with a cannon or mortar before hand, how low your own troops have gotten before combat and where your reinforcements (if any) are. As it should be, it's more about strategy instead of doing the maths to come up with "the best" combination. Looking at some of the other army books, Empire have one of, if not, the largest core choice in the game.
I used to use halberdiers all the time because thats what models i had. Then i got some swordsmen and love them. Never used spearmen in an army that i can recall, yet i haven't been totally slaughtered (except that time my general got pelted by a Wood-Elf heroic killing blow before getting a chance to fight - learnt my mistake there). Doesn't mean there's no place for spearmen, just that i haven't had the time to paint my current miniatures and so can't justify buying more.

Anyway, after studying the new book a bit more, i saw the price differences, which puts it about even with my usual high-elf opponent. Very impressed with the new Helblaster rules, but on testing results with an artillery dice, upset at the amount of 'double misfires' i rolled. Like how the mortar uses general stonethrower rules with exceptions - just makes it easier to remember for all parties, plus you get the blind firing rule to shoot at guys you can't usually see, and i don't think the penalty is that bad. I found that scatter rolls usually put the mortar on target instead of missing it. I can understand the 1pt str reduction after what i did to a rarther expensive high elf unit once on the first turn.

Besides, get a nice scenario to play (The Bugman's XXXXXX ale one is fun) and you won't be worrying too much about winning/losing, but more about keeping hold of that pesky ale, and remembering some heroic (and some not-so-heroic) actions of your troops.

[Slugg087]

I have anxiously been waiting for the Empire army book to arrive and yesterday i finally got it! I read through it and I have mixed emotions about it. But I have to say I really love the new helblaster volley gun, making me an even bigger fan of it than before. And I´m looking forward in testing the new HRB rules not to forget the Steam tank with it´s new (and improved) rules, plus the toughness decrease was totally called for.

The mortar however lost it´s place as top gun for me. Sure S3 and 75 pts was too good but now they increased the points cost AND lowered the strength to 2. That´s a bit too much for me. Overall the warmachines have become more expensive, although that is understandable.

I like the witch hunter but I want to see him in combat before I make my mind up about him. Have you guys noticed that they removed the rule that makes your detachment flankcharge the enemy if you can see their flank?
To summarize only thinking about the new army book makes me drool and gives me the butterflies

[MarkoV]

Hm, tough one. I am huge fan of Empire since 6th, and i look with sorrow in what happened. Damn, i miss good old-crazy-sure-to-explode Hellblaster guns. Rolling to hit instead of autohits? That is nerf that i havent seen in any other WH Army Book. IN 6th, i managed to kill full wounded Archaon with  30shots from Hellblaster. Now i can't kill 15 zombies. Pathetic.
Next thing i dislike is Steam Tank, but i started topic somewhere else, so i don't want to cry about it.

Hold the line is amasing rule, something that Empire needed, but i think that it came with 2 big price.

My 2 cents!

[wilddragon]

Would you really want to take a block of spears or halberds with shields anymore? Thats expensive as all hell. They are not strong enough to warrant such a point raise.

[finngoalie]

 Anyone want to buy an Empire army? Mine will collect dust for a couple years until 9th edition comes out and done by a different author who had the courtesy of looking at advanced input from this site. All core went up in points with zero stat change. WRONG as it could be. Unless you think like GW wants us to, and get the all the big new models to buff up the core. What was done to the mortar is criminal....+25 points and -1 S Our author should stick to his Tyranids in 40k...another great volume....

[Calisson]

Anyone want to buy an Empire army? Mine will collect dust for a couple years until 9th edition comes out and done by a different author who had the courtesy of looking at advanced input from this site. All core went up in points with zero stat change. WRONG as it could be. Unless you think like GW wants us to, and get the all the big new models to buff up the core. What was done to the mortar is criminal....+25 points and -1 S Our author should stick to his Tyranids in 40k...another great volume....

You should sell it to someone in your local community.
You'd had a chance to face it later on the hands of another general.
But beware: your former models will have a grief against you. You could lose that game...

[Smythen]

Easy guys
I have had all the same worries and complaints that you guys have.
But trying out the new rulebook, changed my mind. The point changes must be seen together with all the other changes.
Empire infantry never breaks if they remain steadfast and have a captain/bsb. This is invaluable in these days.

The game has changed, and is now more about synergies than anything else. This may come as a disappointment to many. But thats how it is. So get those magical war wagons roling next to your troops, and buff them with your new cheap warrior priests and all will be fine.

[finngoalie]

The key words are "IF" they remain steadfast and "AND" they have a captain/ASB. Compare that to skeletons in a horde at 5 points each in their new book, that keep coming back. Just the idea of facing the VC is laughable with their new stuff. Sorry guys, I can't be sold on GW's/Cruddace's ideas. All painted up, they'll look great dying. I should have looked through the book more carefully before I wasted the $40.

[prouddiagram]

a single character can make 80 men virtualy unbreakable. take a 40 block then two detachments of 20. then a general or captain, up to you. CROWN OF COMMAND. gives them ALL stubborn. have fun.

[Eisen]

I have to say that I'm liking the new book. Did we lose "gunline"? Ya, more or less, but think of the gains. Empire has gained the synergy to play to our greatest strength... choices. I've never found Empire to work very well when used with a narrow focus.  It says it at the front of most of our army books, what does the Empire have? Everything! They aren't always the best but we've always got something for any problem in our bag of tricks, it's just a matter of learning how to use them together. The Empire is alot like a smart phone...we've got an app for that!

[finngoalie]

And then watch what happens when that character has to answer a challenge and dies easily, along with his crown of command.

[prouddiagram]

so give him stuff that makes him more survivable. Then hopefully u will have won the combat before the challenge even ends.

[kilian]

Personally, I think I like the new army book a lot. Many of the changes they made make sense. Case in point:

Warrior priests are now far less expensive. They were way overpriced to begin with, and with the old bound spell rules their prayers seemed like a rare sight to go off. Now their prayers have a fighting chance, and they dont eat your points. Big for me, since I love WPs.

Steamtank. Let's face it, the steam tank needed the overhaul badly.

Demigryphs. Thank god we finally got something like this. It fills a role in the empire army that we seemed to substantially lack, and theyre just vicious.

Inner Circle Knights: No longer a special choice, which is very good, so I might actually take some for once.

Generals: Cold blooded infantry? Yes please.

War Altar of Sigmar. This thing is now righteous (no pun intended), as are the other strange arcane chariot things. This was a big up for us, especially with the Arch Lector costing almost as much as an old book WP. That's awesome.

These are just the things I came up with off the top of my head, but I'm loving the new book. My only (minor) critique is that it does seem like the book, and GW, focusses on the new models a lot, like the arcane chariots. It's not necessarily a problem, but given what they do it almost feels like you have to take one in order to be very effective. Maybe not, but that's just the feeling I get. Another negative, not really with the book itself though: I'm not sure I like the new griffon model. It's way too big and odd looking.

[Muppet]

I must say that I am not very pleased with the new book. In my opinion there a lot of changes that are not beneficial to the Empire.

1. Cost of core troops is unreasonable. Increase cost of Swordsmen even though they have cut their initiative from 4 to 3? Not cool... Chaos marauders with shield and light armour is one point cheaper and with I 4???

2. The warrior priests are cheaper, yes, but they lost the "unbreakable" prayer, which I think was the most useful one. Also, Armour of contempt (now Shield of faith) is reduced from 4+ to 5+ and is only for close combat. Soulfire is now base contact and not D6 S4 hits (per unit in touch that was) and amour saves are allowed unless undead, etc., but I admit the added “flaming attacks” is nice. I would rather pay the 90 p to get the old priest back though.

3. Greatswords are still not good. Stubborn is all fine, but they will be sorely whipped as usual since their stats are still really mediocre. Horribly overpriced in my view. Compare for example with Chaos warriors at an expensive 15 p but with a really awesome stat line (WS 5, S 4, T 4, A 2, 4+ armour save) and with a load of upgrade choices.

4. Steamtank I am not sure how the new rules will turn out. In general I am not fond of the 8th edition since I think it is simplified and there is too much randomness to it. Roll for charge distance, roll for power dice, roll for this, roll for that. What happened to skill and tactics? Out the window it seems. And here it comes for the Steamtank as well. In earlier versions it was at least up to you if you wanted to screw it up or not. But honestly, 250 p for a Steamtank or 235 p for a Hell pit abomination (250 p with magic resistance), what would you choose? Not the Steamtank I think.

5. Flagellants… So, they got WS 3, but they lost the “eternal frenzy”. WS 3 instead of WS 2 will only help when fighting troops with WS 5 or higher and Flagellants will not have a chance against such units anyway.  Another overpriced Empire unit that lost its purpose in 8th edition.

6. A lascannon and a storm generator? Which at that are ugly models? Give me a break… There is already a great cannon for sniping, especially when you do not have to guess the range anymore.

7. Grandpa knight is even more expensive than before, and now he does not even come fully armed. I especially enjoyed him with Laurels of victory in combo with +1 to hit weapon against undead (very expensive though). Now he has gone from “Sometimes fun to have” to “Stay in the box”.

8. Mortar S 2 will render it rather useless. A hefty price increase would have hurt less.

I will stop here. On the bright side, Demigryph knights might be useful as something to counter all the super monsters popping up in all the other armies. The counter charge of the detachment will still be in the side of the enemy unit, at least if the detachment has been level with the parent unit when it got charged. On the other hand, since disruption does not affect the steadfast rule I see little use for close combat detachments. The Witch hunters’ magic resistance might be useful even though the stats are rather poor, but so are most mages also.

Now I have to admit I have not yet played with the new army list, so we will see how it turns out. My army has at least increased in point value, although I see that more like the IT bubble about to burst in my face.

[PrinceofPleasure]

I find it humorous that so many people have been commenting on the playability of the empire book, yet have a poor understanding of the rules, and the direction GW is taking the game.

8th is about combat. Period. Everything else, movement, magic, shooting, is about making sure you win your decisive combats. Its what that player who beats you every time knows and you do not. You build gunlines, and you might seem like your winning for a turn or two, but you always end up losing. GW increased the points of shooting, to further enforce their mindset on what the game is about, and of course you're upset. But you are building a list contrary to the game, of course its going to be less point optimized than someone who is actually playing the game.

The Mortar went up in price, and lost strength. To make its effect less dramatic, and decrease its availability. Cruddace didn't do it because he hates you, he did it because 8th is about combat. Killing 5-6 models with shooting from a 6-8 deep unit, is going to help you negate their steadfast come combat. Where the mortar differs from the cannon is that it also works on units that are wide, can hit multiple units, can fire indirect, etc.

On support characters. Characters give all their benifits even if they refuse a challenge. The only downside is LD, but Empire have the best Command and Control mechanism in the game. With detachments you can spread your 12" ld from one side of the board to the other. If they challenge, refuse, they can only send character models to the back, and all of your support abilities still work. (Hold your ground!, Hold the line!, Crown of command, Righteous fury, Grim Resolve, battle prayers, etc)

Lets talk about the cost of infantry. And the difference between unstable infantry, and infantry able to benefit from steadfast.

A Skeleton is indeed 5 points, at Ws2, and I2, he's generally going last, hitting on 4's and being hit on 3's.

A Swordsmen is 7 points Ws3, I3. He is going to strike at the same time as most general infantry, and hit and be hit on 4's. He is the definition of middle of the road state wise.

The difference is steadfast. Taking more skeletons means after combat res, you'll have some left. going from 30 to 40 skeletons won't win you any combats you were going to lose, it will just make sure you have a unit to raise back into in your turn. Going from 20-30 swordsmen, means you have 6 ranks, for steadfast. At quite possibly Ld9-10. Steadfast gets better the more troops you add, the price per model is what controls the inflation. A block that will be steadfast indefinitely cost a truck load, and becomes vulnerable to templates, and stat test spells, meaning it isn't ideal, and thus not likely to be taken. Could the game have survived with swordsmen being 6 points? Probably but it would likely lead to mono-build empire, a risk not worth taking, in Cruddace eyes supposedly.

To Muppet, if you don't like 8th why play and comment on it? It seems counter-intuitive. If you don't like 8th of course you aren't going to like the book written for 8th. Comparing Greatswords to Warriors? a Great sword is a state troop raised high. A warrior of chaos is your martial nightmare made flesh and steel. Who are actually 16-17 points as the must take a weapon or shield, also these guys (Both marauders and Warriors) are rounding into a big nerf themselves. So don't get too up in arms.

The steam tank is amazing, full stop. 1+ armour, 360 charges, reusable breath weapon, no difficult terrain checks unless you contact an enemy, A stand and shoot reaction, unbreakable, attacks outside of combat in subsequent rounds, this thing essentially has ASF!. I'd take a Steam tank over a hell pit everyday of the week and twice on weekends.

The Luninark is just an option to be honest +1 dispel dice every turn, is nice, a 5 wound T5 chariot is also pretty good, a move and fire flaming bolt thrower also nice. 6+ ward for every unit within 6" also a great bonus, bet the great cannon doesn't do all that?

The Huricanum, +1 power dice!, a T5 5W chariot, +1 to hit. Every seen what Banner of the Barrows does to grave gaurd or black knights. You can make sure you hit on 3's or with speed of light you can hit on 2's. Admittedly the bound spell is pretty meh. Taking support elements out of the unit, is also a great way to create redundancy.

[sebster]

1. Cost of core troops is unreasonable. Increase cost of Swordsmen even though they have cut their initiative from 4 to 3? Not cool... Chaos marauders with shield and light armour is one point cheaper and with I 4???

Empire troops are now more expensive than their raw abilities justify, that's true, and certainly don't match up favourably with a close combat oriented army like Warriors of Chaos.  But then they never did, the point was always to use the Empire's strengths to boost those troops so that they could match other armies.

2. The warrior priests are cheaper, yes, but they lost the "unbreakable" prayer, which I think was the most useful one. Also, Armour of contempt (now Shield of faith) is reduced from 4+ to 5+ and is only for close combat. Soulfire is now base contact and not D6 S4 hits (per unit in touch that was) and amour saves are allowed unless undead, etc., but I admit the added “flaming attacks” is nice. I would rather pay the 90 p to get the old priest back though.

Ah, that 5+ save now extends to the whole unit, not just the Warrior Priest.  That's a 5+ ward save for a whole unit that can be cast on a 3+, it's a major increase in power.  Similarly, the other two abilities, granting re-rolls to wound and giving flaming, magical attacks extend to the whole unit.  Prayers have become a powerful weapon now and possibly the cornerstone of the Empire magic phase, rather than the things you cast when your mage is dead.

4. Steamtank I am not sure how the new rules will turn out. In general I am not fond of the 8th edition since I think it is simplified and there is too much randomness to it. Roll for charge distance, roll for power dice, roll for this, roll for that. What happened to skill and tactics?

I've never understood this idea that skill is somehow diminished by needing to roll dice... argued by people playing a dice game.

In other news, the steam tank is easier to wound & kill now, but it remains capable of inflicting considerable damage even after its taken some wounds, which makes it less of a pure anvil, and more of a mixed unit.  It's more fun to play with and against, and it is considerably more interesting to decide how to deploy it each game.

The counter charge of the detachment will still be in the side of the enemy unit, at least if the detachment has been level with the parent unit when it got charged.

On the other hand, since disruption does not affect the steadfast rule I see little use for close combat detachments.

Combat res still matters, especially against undead, but also because only one side in a conflict is steadfast.  If you've got more ranks but can combat res him into having to take the leadership check, then he'll be doing it without steadfast.  And if he is steadfast, then be very grateful your combat res is forcing him into the test, and it isn't you taking it without steadfast.

And more than that, people still seem to have missed the most significant advantage of flanking, the ratios of attacks against to attacks received.  A flanking unit gets supporting attacks, whereas the flanked unit doesn't, and that can result to a significant advantage in the attrition rate very quickly.

Just try matching a horde of 60 halberdiers against another horde of 50, with a detachment of another 10 halberdiers.  See how that supporting detachment lends a full 10 attacks to the combat, while the extra attacks of the flanked unit only gives another 3 attacks.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Similarly, the other two abilities, granting re-rolls to wound and giving flaming, magical attacks extend to the whole unit.

On a sidenote, Flaming Attacks are just that: flaming, not magical.

[gerlof101]

Master Engineers did get a bit of an overhaul, although subtle. They no longer have to "join" a war machine to give it the bonuses, they just have to be close enough (3"). Put them between a cannon and a mortar as either a rear guard with a Rep Handgun or give him a long rifle to snipe at those in the middle of the field. Just make sure you fire your war machines first so he can reroll instead of firing.

Please read again ; while it is true master engineers no longer need to join the warmachine to use 'master of ballistics' they did get a major nerf that went almost unnoticed. In the 'Master of ballistics'-rule it states that "You must nominate which war machine, if any, will be using this rule each shooting phase before any war machines within 3" of the Master Engineer are fired". This means that the master engineer can no longer wait to see if a misfire occurs with a nearby war machine and, if nothing happens, blast away with his hochland rifle but rather that beforehand you have to decide that the master engineer will be tinkering with the war machine to prevent a misfire, giving up his shooting phase. In comparison with the previous rules I consider this a pretty major nerf.