Topic: Two Step Breaking, Panic, and Some other Random Psych Test Thoughts

[S.O.F]

So many months ago Warlord started a thread pondering on how Panic was used as a mechanic in WHFB 8th and perhaps how a redone rule set may change to the approach to such tests. Now enough time has passed with 9th rules and having looked over other systems that I really haven't found the tweak I personally would like for this sort of thing, so in my own rambling rules projects that I dedicate far too much time to I've had this sort of thought:

In general the premise for this is that the break test as currently constructed either from official GW editions or even into 9th age is that is can lead to unit breaking and fleeing in completely unsatisfying fashion removing drama and fun from the game because of an unlucky early roll. Thus the idea presented here is a method to mitigate this problem as well as contribute to fixing the issues that rules like steadfast have posed under official rules.

Panic Checks remain under the circumstances prescribed in the 8th edition with the following additions:
General is Slain
Unit is charged or charges a Terror causing unit

Now instead of the failure of such a check resulting in the unit fleeing the unit instead becomes disordered/disrupted. Disordered/Disrupted Units suffer the following maluses:
May not march
Suffer -1 to hit rolls when using shooting weapons
Casters in Disordered Units may not channel power or dispel dice
Can not count ranks or steadfast if engaged in hand to hand combat

Also any unit which has become disordered/disrupted subsequently fail a second Panic check in another phase it too would flee.

So for example in a single turn a unit of Marauders are battered by magic and become disordered. In the following shooting phase a screening unit of Warhounds is paniced by missile fire and flees through, the Marauders then take another check and this time if failed they are broken and flee.

Now to reorder a unit it would work similar to rallying fleeing troops with key differences. There is no obligation to reorder a unit so if one wished to Declare a charge with it one could do so knowing full well they would be sacrificing any static CR from ranks and the steadfast bonus for the following combat along with additional negatives which will be noted later. In the Compulsory Movement phase disrupted/disordered units may attempt to reorder by passing a LD check. Units without musicians count as if they had reformed and are thus unable to preform any other actions and those with them count as if they had successfully made a swift reform. Again this is of course optional and if the player chooses not to reorder the unit it can move in the remaining moves section per normal.

Now for similar structure Break Tests are amended to be essentially a similar two step process along with significant changes to Steadfast.

Steadfast now only applies in the first round of close combat in which a unit has lost provided the unit is:
Not Disordered/Disrupted
Has more Ranks than its opponent

Also units engaged in the front and charged in the rear or flank by a unit of sufficient size are automatically Disordered/Disrupted.

Beyond that then Break Tests are again the two step system the first failure results in the unit becoming Disrupted/Disordered and the second results in a normal break and flee move as per current rules. Units that enter combat already Disordered/Disrupted break at the first failure. Units in combat may not be reordered unless they win their combat and pass a LD check similar to combat reform in defeat.

Right now I think I've covered most of my notes for this but probably left something out. Any thoughts from folks, is two steps to much book keeping (casualty markers I don't think make it too bad), or are there other hideous problems I failed to address?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Does it need to be tweaked with the current BSB rules? Apart from Detachments, that is...

[Michael W]

It's a lot to remember.  I don't know how much historical gaming you've done, but you're definitely inviting the pipe-cleaners of organization onto the table.  "Yellow needs to test at the end of the phase, orange is disordered, red is fleeing..."  I know it's not in the rules, but keeping track of what units are in what status can be taxing.  One thing Warhammer used to do well, at least, was keep the excess bits off the table.

That said, not at all opposed to what you're trying to do.  I've seen panic destroy whole armies on Turn 1, which doesn't make for much of a game (not a game at all, if your opponent has his entire force flees on a chain of failed tests...but I digress...and I think that possibility went away in 7th...).

[S.O.F]

I don't know how much historical gaming you've done, but you're definitely inviting the pipe-cleaners of organization onto the table.  "Yellow needs to test at the end of the phase, orange is disordered, red is fleeing..."  I know it's not in the rules, but keeping track of what units are in what status can be taxing.  One thing Warhammer used to do well, at least, was keep the excess bits off the table.

Yep absolutely my concern. I just don't know if in an in game situation if it would be too much extra work over current systems which just having fleeing and formed.

[Michael W]

Playtest!  Just find some friends victims and give it a shot a few times.

[Warlord]

In my opinion, this is no different from applying buffs and hexes from spells, so if you are ok with those, then not too much more book keeping.

Regarding automatically passing reordering test, that should come from a champion in a unit, rather than the musician IMO.

[S.O.F]

Regarding automatically passing reordering test, that should come from a champion in a unit, rather than the musician IMO.

There is no auto passing merely how a reorder counts so with out a musician it counts as if you had reformed and with it is a speed reform, either way if you are planing some sort of advancing battle line a reformed regiment will lag behind to variable degrees.

Another thought is that perhaps all units that pursue a fleeing enemy become disordered. I mean it would feel more realistic and it would make it a higher risk/reward situation when it came to pursuing broken foes and perhaps encourage the keeping of reserves.


Also I've thought on Fidelis note on BSBs I would consider making the bonus of re-rolls apply only to the unit that has the BSB in it and make the 12" zone something of a re-roll to rally or maybe even an auto rally zone. Detachments as done in the 8th I'd scrap and go back to something more akin to previous incarnations.

[Warlord]

The BSB change to reroll all psych was a big one back in the day... Hmmm

[S.O.F]

The BSB change to reroll all psych was a big one back in the day... Hmmm

Indeed but I just think it is far too many re-rolls really, a general problem of the core 8th rules where you can't turn a page in the rule book without the bonus being re-rolls. Re-rolls take out the drama and weight of tests and I think the largest reason for it addition was so you didn't have units running off on unlucky panic tests turn one. If Panic tests and Break Tests are essentially a two step system, along with Fear under 8th rules not having near as much teeth, and moving Terror into a Fear plus causing a panic check realm I don't think the re-rolls are as needed. Restraining Frenzy and overcoming March Blocking are the only bigger situations in which it might be missed but as you have a roll to begin with as opposed to the old days of none at all do you need two chances at it?

[Warlord]

Rerolls make the game take longer to play.
IMO all rerolls should be removed from the rules, and replaced with other, more streamlined things that take less time to perform.